Not By Works

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benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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During the past winter I was PM's this at a Bible forum I am member of .

I think this may be very helpful in carrying this discussion forward.

It is my hope at least. :)



For a Christian to lose their salvation God would have to:

*Erase the Mark (John 13- And verse 35.)

*Withdraw the Holy Spirit within them

* Cancel the Deposit (Ephesians 1:13-14 & 2 Corinthians 1:21-22)

*Break His promise (Acts 2:38-39 & http://www.openbible.info/topics/assurance_of_salvation)


*Revoke the Guarantee (James 1:17 & 2 Corinthians 1:22)

*Keep the Inheritance (Ephesians 1:11-14)

*Forego the praise (Hebrews 13:15)
Yes, if you come to reject him and erase the mark, and withdraw from the HS, and cancel the deposit, and break your promises, and spit on the guarantee, and mock the inheritance and forego the praise. Yes, if you do those things, Jesus will turn away from you, and will say, I never knew you.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,787
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I will only answer your Peter question.

When Peter denied Christ, he had 2 choices.
1) continue to be alienated from Jesus, in which case he would have lost his salvation and found himself in hell.
2) humbly repent and come back to Christ, in which case he would be saved and become the great apostle that he was. he chose 2
Why won't you answer my question about my sexual abuser?

Come on answer it.
Can you answer it?
Maybe you have, in fact you have.
You have said many a time, if you don't forgive then you will not be forgiven, therefore you are in hell.

Come on bro, stand on that pedastool and tell me if on that night the first of many nights in fact 1,460 days when I did not forgive I'm going to hell because God would not forgive me for 1,460 days.

Finally Peter denied Jesus, he did not repent and come back to Jesus.
Jesus sought out Peter.
Quote Bible verses where Peter was humble in repentance, you will not find it.
He got upset with Jesus when he came to him after he rose again.

Come on Ben, don't deflect and answer
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
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SO YOU BELIEVE JESUS IS A LIAR?

John 14:16-17 (YLT)
16 and I will ask the Father, and another Comforter He will give to you, that he may remain with you--to the age;
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world is not able to receive, because it doth not behold him, nor know him, and ye know him, because he doth remain with you, and shall be in you.



John 14:16-18 (NKJV)
16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever--
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.


John 14:25-27 (HCSB)
25 “I have spoken these things to you while I remain with you.
26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit—the Father will send Him in My name—will teach you all things and remind you of everything I have told you.
27 “Peace I leave with you. My peace I give to you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Your heart must not be troubled or fearful.


Matthew 28:20 (HCSB)
20 teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.

Hebrews 13:5 (CSBBible)
5 Keep your life free from the love of money. Be satisfied with what you have, for he himself has said, I will never leave you or abandon you.
John 14:16 he MAY remain with you.

Mathew 20:28 teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you, remember I am with you always to the end... (But what if you DO NOT observe everything that I have commanded you??)

Hebrews 13:5 Keep your life free from the love of money, be satisfied with what you have, I will never leave you or abandon you. (But what if you do love money more that Jesus, and you are not satisfied with what you have and so you do not observe what Jesus commands you to get more?) (IOW you reject Jesus for the world, will he leave you then?) The answer is you have left him and his promise is no longer valid for you.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
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Would you like to know what quenching the spirit really means?

1 Thessalonians 5:19 (NKJV)
19 Do not quench the Spirit.
It was a discussion, we do not have full knowledge.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
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My salvation is built on solid ground not shifting sand, Jesus nor the Holy Spirit will ever leave us as an orphan. Where are your verses to support your false notions that we will lose our eternal salvation, you have none, just your say so thats all.
You say that like you hate me. You know what Jesus thinks about a person who hates.

One scripture I will give you is Matthew 6:14-15. To the 'saved' Jesus says, you either forgive all or my father will not forgive you of all the trespasses you have done towards Him.

Have you and will you continue to forgive all men their trespasses against you?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
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Thus showing you don't believe people have eternal life upon being born again.
To me, being born again is just the gate onto the path of eternal life. That is where the journey begins, not ends.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
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quenching is rendered in most study as suppressing, not completely putting out. the other you mentioned is only possible with blasphemy of the HS, and that is questionable if it is even possible today.

works... are... not... your... own...

they are the byproduct of the HOLY SPIRIT in you....
I agree, but necessary none the less, especially if the HS is prompting you to do the good works. Can you reject the prompting of the HS and not do the good work that the HS is prompting you to do?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
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except our circumcision is no longer of the flesh but of the spirit. the proof of our faith is in our heart. if our heart is inclined to God our spirit produces the fruit of works.
Exactly, if your heart is inclined to God, our spirit will produce the fruit of works. If your heart is not inclined to God our spirit will not produce the fruit of good works.

Hisholly was also not just referring to circumcision. He was also referring to sacrificing his son, etc., etc., etc.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
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I get it BillG, but its about boasting in your works, if you want to work your self to death be my guest but works are evidence that you are saved, works cannot add 1 extra second to your eternal salvation. I am not saying someone who works to keep there salvation is not saved, I am saying Jesus already paid the price so there is nothing to boast about. Jesus paid it all all to Him I owe.

Did you get my post on multiple quote postings?

God bless!
That was nice to say that I am saved. I will still do the works that Jesus creates for me to do. I suspect you will too.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Why won't you answer my question about my sexual abuser?

Come on answer it.
Can you answer it?
Maybe you have, in fact you have.
You have said many a time, if you don't forgive then you will not be forgiven, therefore you are in hell.

Come on bro, stand on that pedastool and tell me if on that night the first of many nights in fact 1,460 days when I did not forgive I'm going to hell because God would not forgive me for 1,460 days.

Finally Peter denied Jesus, he did not repent and come back to Jesus.
Jesus sought out Peter.
Quote Bible verses where Peter was humble in repentance, you will not find it.
He got upset with Jesus when he came to him after he rose again.

Come on Ben, don't deflect and answer
Yes BillG, I believe that if you had not forgiven your abuser, you would not have eternal life with Christ, who forgave all his abusers. I do not say that you have been in hell for 1460 days, but I will say that if you had not forgiven that person, you will not live with God and Jesus for 1460 billions of eternities.

Here is the ironic thing. If your abuser reconciles himself to God and fully repents of his actions against you, God will forgive him and allow him to live with Him and Jesus for eternity.

So I am glad you had it in your good heart to forgive this trespass against you, so God can fogive your trespasses against Him, and allow you to live with Him and Jesus eternally.
 

AngelFrog

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2015
648
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Yes, if you come to reject him and erase the mark, and withdraw from the HS, and cancel the deposit, and break your promises, and spit on the guarantee, and mock the inheritance and forego the praise. Yes, if you do those things, Jesus will turn away from you, and will say, I never knew you.
John 14:16 he MAY remain with you.

Mathew 20:28 teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you, remember I am with you always to the end... (But what if you DO NOT observe everything that I have commanded you??)

Hebrews 13:5 Keep your life free from the love of money, be satisfied with what you have, I will never leave you or abandon you. (But what if you do love money more that Jesus, and you are not satisfied with what you have and so you do not observe what Jesus commands you to get more?) (IOW you reject Jesus for the world, will he leave you then?) The answer is you have left him and his promise is no longer valid for you.
You are describing 1 John 2:19

I think you're entitled to believe your salvation is trepedatious. I believe you are entitled to live your humanist ideology wherein you think your ego is able to evict the holy spirit of God on your whim. I believe you are fully entitled to think as a humanist, live as a humanist, and die as a humanist. I do not think your humanist doctrine that corrupts the words of God should be tolerated. And you've certainly proved you're not entitled to be called on in Christ.

I think people here should realize that post after post, argument after argument, corrupted scripture after corrupted scripture that is marred by your own interpolation, your own desire to have it read as you wish it to and as you make it to read with your own writing, has told us that you are 1 John 2:19. Page after page, post after post, thread after thread. You are simply sharing what you are. And you want the rest of us to agree that makes us one with you. It does not. God knows it cannot.
 

AngelFrog

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2015
648
57
28
SO YOU BELIEVE JESUS IS A LIAR?...
Excellent! Yes! That is precisely what they've been arguing in every thread they enter.

Did you ever watch the Charlton Heston classic, Ben Hur? Judah bin Hur, Judah, of the house of (meaning of bin) Hur, was not a Christian.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,787
3,721
113
Yes BillG, I believe that if you had not forgiven your abuser, you would not have eternal life with Christ, who forgave all his abusers. I do not say that you have been in hell for 1460 days, but I will say that if you had not forgiven that person, you will not live with God and Jesus for 1460 billions of eternities.

Here is the ironic thing. If your abuser reconciles himself to God and fully repents of his actions against you, God will forgive him and allow him to live with Him and Jesus for eternity.

So I am glad you had it in your good heart to forgive this trespass against you, so God can fogive your trespasses against Him, and allow you to live with Him and Jesus eternally.
Thank you for your response and answer.

So the abuser can ask God to forgive him and is saved? Yes I agree, but the abuser does not ask the the abused to forgive them yet is still saved?

You better make sure that you have no unforgivness in you heart or unconfessed sin before you die.

If not then you and me are going to hell hand in hand.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,787
3,721
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Excellent! Yes! That is precisely what they've been arguing in every thread they enter.

Did you ever watch the Charlton Heston classic, Ben Hur? Judah bin Hur, Judah, of the house of (meaning of bin) Hur, was not a Christian.
One of my favourite films
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
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OK, thank you for that.

Just explain in your own words, not a bunch of scriptures: If he was speaking to those that were saved, why did he give them this promise and condition?

IOW if they are saved and secure eternally, why tell them that if they do not forgive, God will not forgive them?
Remember that if God does not forgive their sins, they will not be with Him in the KOG or have eternal life.

If they are 'saved' why they sermon on forgiveness?
ok ben

im not at home yet but ill start now

you asked how

Matthew 6:14-15
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Hi Magee, Jesus is speaking truth to his disciples in the Sermon on the Mount. He is using "hyperbole" an exaggeration of truth to make his point sure and believable.

Example: In Chapter 5:29 on adultry, he says, "if" your eye offends you "pluck it out", do people think Jesus wants us to pluck out our eye if we lust for another woman, of course not, Jesus is using hyperbole an exaggeration to get his point across and He does this all through "The Sermon on the Mount."

Point: It is the same identical idea "hyperbole" that Jesus uses in Matthew 6:14,15 about forgiveness. Have you ever held unforgiveness in your heart for someone, that is his point don't do it or God will not forgive you. Will God forgive you? Yes He will, but Jesus speaks in hyperbole an exaggeration to get his point across to His disciples, it is imperative to forgive, even your enemies.

Bottom line; know what type of language a person is using before you make an improper "Interpretation."
A false interpretation will always, always lead to a false "application" and that directly effects everyone.

God bless!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Yes, if you come to reject him and erase the mark, and withdraw from the HS, and cancel the deposit, and break your promises, and spit on the guarantee, and mock the inheritance and forego the praise. Yes, if you do those things, Jesus will turn away from you, and will say, I never knew you.
False yet again....to NEVER KNOW SOMEONE means HE NEVER KNEW THEM........geesh....even a 5 year old can tell the difference

If JESUS had KNOWN them and then said HE NEVER KNEW THEM MAKES JESUS a LIAR....you need to get your head out of the bucket and wake up to the real truth......wow man!