Not By Works

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NoNameMcgee

Guest
2 pieces of information that make me wonder how you think:
1) you say, "thats like saying belief is a choice". Were you serious or just being funny? Do you seriously believe that my belief is imputed into me and that I have no choice whether to believe in Jesus or not? If you were serious, then you believe that your belief was imputed into you, and that your faith was imputed into you, and your righteousness was not your but Jesus's righteousness was imputed into you, and all this imputed stuff allow God to let you live with Him for the eternities. Is this how you think of how a person gets eternal life?

2) you say, "the need to ignore verses that go against the message of other verses. Were you serious or just being funny? Is it OK for you to ignore a large swath of the bible? I guess so? But you have to know that is dangerous? Ignoring scriptures that do not fit your theology is not very wise either. Just saying.
1. belief in Jesus is a response to hearing the truth and accepting it

no i did not "CHOOSE" to believe it when i heard it

i tried to reject it ... i even posted this in my testimony when i was still a sinless perfectionist maybe a year ago
(you can still look this up)
but i couldnt turn away from the truth after i was called


2. i believe YOU ignore many verses to keep your head canon alive
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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To BillG:

I was saying that some do not lose their faith and then lose their salvation, but go on to be great witnesses of Jesus Christ, and bring much fruit into the KOG.
So they can have little minor works to begin with but grow?

If so that I agree with.
So is Forgiveness a good work (asked in a previous post)
After all you say if we do not forgive then we will not be forgiven, if not then we lose our salvation even if we have not lost our faith?

After all I never lost my faith whilst being sexually abused and had not forgiven.

I'm not trying to play the victim here but I'm trying to make you think a bit.
I did not have the capacity to forgive, I was 14, in a Christian Foster home.

My wife and I are walking with a couple in our church.
And boy have they been through a lot, before they were married and after they were married. And praise God they are still together, worked in them and is continuing to do so.

The point I'm trying to make is that it's not just black and white.
Jesus came for the weary, the sick, the land, the broken hearted.
He came to set the prisoner free.

A physician works to bring healing.
Jesus is the greatest physician.

You talk about forgiveness and if we have unforgivness in our hearts before we die then we are not saved or lose salvation.

Sorry ben but I do not agree with that.
We are to be doctors and nurses to the wounded, allow God to use us to bring healing.

And the truth is ben I'm not sure you get that.

I do think and you can disagree with me and I hope you do.

But I feel your counsel would be to a broken hearted, emotionally pain infested person, a genuine beliver who came to your for counseling would be.

If you do not forgive then God will not forgive you and if not when you die then you are in hell.

Then you would focus on works.

To be honest if that's what you are I will stand against it.

To me you are the type of person that if I came to you to talk about my severe gambling problem, so much so that I did not realise I was gambling. One minute at my desk the next gambling and I had no recollection of walking to gamble I'm not sure you could have coped with me.

I thank God for a faithful grace filled man who walked with me during that time he spent with me.

Revealing the love and grace of God for me.
Where I was at.

I hope I'm wrong concerning my thoughts, I really do
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,166
3,027
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1. belief in Jesus is a response to hearing the truth and accepting it

no i did not "CHOOSE" to believe it when i heard it

i tried to reject it ... i even posted this in my testimony when i was still a sinless perfectionist maybe a year ago
(you can still look this up)
but i couldnt turn away from the truth after i was called


2. i believe YOU ignore many verses to keep your head canon alive
You still got that JKV Bible?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
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My view....one who has believed into a false gospel that allows for the loss of salvation did not trust into the Jesus of the bible by faith....the King Jimmy and most translations do not bring across the definite article tied to "THE" JESUS of the bible.....
So are you saying that if I read the KJV that I will miss a very important piece of how to be saved?
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,425
15,279
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A believer will never be forsaken. But a believer turned unbeliever will be forsaken. So says the parable of the vine, and the sower, and the merciful king. All 3 are perfect examples of a believer that turned to unbeliever and lost their salvation.
Impossible.....to believe what you believe is to make Jesus into an inept liar that does not keep his word.

JESUS BEGINS, FINISHES and COMPLETES the work of faith he begins in us. TO say the bolded above ^^^^^ states clearly that HE DOES NOT FINISH and COMPLETE something he STARTED <---makes him into a weak inept liar that cannot keep his word.

Exactly why your view is false.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
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So they can have little minor works to begin with but grow?

If so that I agree with.
So is Forgiveness a good work (asked in a previous post)
After all you say if we do not forgive then we will not be forgiven, if not then we lose our salvation even if we have not lost our faith?

After all I never lost my faith whilst being sexually abused and had not forgiven.

I'm not trying to play the victim here but I'm trying to make you think a bit.
I did not have the capacity to forgive, I was 14, in a Christian Foster home.

My wife and I are walking with a couple in our church.
And boy have they been through a lot, before they were married and after they were married. And praise God they are still together, worked in them and is continuing to do so.

The point I'm trying to make is that it's not just black and white.
Jesus came for the weary, the sick, the land, the broken hearted.
He came to set the prisoner free.

A physician works to bring healing.
Jesus is the greatest physician.

You talk about forgiveness and if we have unforgivness in our hearts before we die then we are not saved or lose salvation.

Sorry ben but I do not agree with that.
We are to be doctors and nurses to the wounded, allow God to use us to bring healing.

And the truth is ben I'm not sure you get that.

I do think and you can disagree with me and I hope you do.

But I feel your counsel would be to a broken hearted, emotionally pain infested person, a genuine beliver who came to your for counseling would be.

If you do not forgive then God will not forgive you and if not when you die then you are in hell.

Then you would focus on works.

To be honest if that's what you are I will stand against it.

To me you are the type of person that if I came to you to talk about my severe gambling problem, so much so that I did not realise I was gambling. One minute at my desk the next gambling and I had no recollection of walking to gamble I'm not sure you could have coped with me.

I thank God for a faithful grace filled man who walked with me during that time he spent with me.

Revealing the love and grace of God for me.
Where I was at.

I hope I'm wrong concerning my thoughts, I really do
I am grateful for that man too, and happy for you that you have found Jesus and you are happy.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,166
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its kinda banged up

but i will never lose it

:LOL:

i feel like God gave it to me
He did give it to you.
As when you lost it he gave it back to you, even when it was banged up.

I remember the pictures you posted when you first appeared here.
 

SaintMichaels

Active member
Jun 6, 2018
156
106
28
AMEN bro....the simplicity found in Christ is exactly that...SO SIMPLE most miss it or have to embellish it beyond what they bible gives as truth....
Amen and Amen, bro.
1 John 5:11-12 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has this eternal life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have this eternal life.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
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MAN...where in what I said did I even imply that....??
..the King Jimmy and most translations do not bring across the definite article tied to "THE" JESUS of the bible..... (see your post 64680

This statement seems to mean that the KJV and other translations lose something about something and I boiled it down to how one is saved. I think you said one time that the definite article 'the' somehow ties Jesus to us forever or something like that, which has to do with being saved forever. I could have been wrong, but that is what I thought. Correct me nicely if I am wrong. Thank you.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,166
3,027
113
..the King Jimmy and most translations do not bring across the definite article tied to "THE" JESUS of the bible..... (see your post 64680

This statement seems to mean that the KJV and other translations lose something about something and I boiled it down to how one is saved. I think you said one time that the definite article 'the' somehow ties Jesus to us forever or something like that, which has to do with being saved forever. I could have been wrong, but that is what I thought. Correct me nicely if I am wrong. Thank you.
It's interesting but very important when it comes to Bible translation.

Romans 8:1-4

Free from Indwelling Sin
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (KJV)

Romans 8:1-4
Life Through the Spirit
1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (NIV)

See the difference and how it can affect a believer?
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,425
15,279
113
..the King Jimmy and most translations do not bring across the definite article tied to "THE" JESUS of the bible..... (see your post 64680

This statement seems to mean that the KJV and other translations lose something about something and I boiled it down to how one is saved. I think you said one time that the definite article 'the' somehow ties Jesus to us forever or something like that, which has to do with being saved forever. I could have been wrong, but that is what I thought. Correct me nicely if I am wrong. Thank you.
Of course the translations lose something (many things) in translation and exactly why one must look to the inspired languages (Greek and Hebrew) to fully grasp the nuances found in said languages....the definite article translated "the" is often left out of the modern English translations because we do not speak like that....The bible points to THE one and ONLY PARTICULAR JESUS that saves men by faith....there is not 2, 3, 4 or more gospels of salvation. There is but ONE biblical DOOR into the kingdom and the bible emphatically teaches that it is faith and faith alone that saves a man....when we embellish with works, church affiliation or membership, immersion, sacraments, something that WE MUST DO TO REMAIN saved, KEEP SAVED or FINISH off salvation we by default MOVE the landmark GOSPEL from the realm of truth and the ability to save into the false with no power to save.......JESUS is the source of our faith, he has dealt it to every man in measure (the ability to believe) HE BEGINS that work of FAITH, HE FINISHES that work of FAITH, HE COMPLETES that work of faith IN ALL who have genuinely believed into HIS saving faith, HIS sacrifice, HIS blood, HIS cross.....HE will not fail, he keeps his word, HE will NEVER LEAVE or FORSAKE a man and will even LEAVE the 99 to go find the one SHEEP (STILL A SHEEP) that went astray...to say one can lose salvation, forfeit salvation, give up salvation NEGATES the very words, power, and promises of CHRIST......and that is what you are missing and standing against.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,166
3,027
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No, I am not that man, but I wished I had been for you.
You can be. Trust me you can be.

You say I wish I had been, you can be.

We all can be.

That's the focus and should always be.

That's our calling in Jesus
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
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It's interesting but very important when it comes to Bible translation.

Romans 8:1-4

Free from Indwelling Sin
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (KJV)

Romans 8:1-4
Life Through the Spirit
1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (NIV)

See the difference and how it can affect a believer?
I would like recon to analyze these 2 translations, since I have zero ability to interpret scripture, and tell us what the differences are and how they may affect how we are saved. Thank you recon.

BillG, since you spotted it, give it a try too, lets see what you come up with as to how the KJV may cause a person to look at salvastion differently. Good going.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,166
3,027
113
I would like recon to analyze these 2 translations, since I have zero ability to interpret scripture, and tell us what the differences are and how they may affect how we are saved. Thank you recon.

BillG, since you spotted it, give it a try too, lets see what you come up with as to how the KJV may cause a person to look at salvastion differently. Good going.
I think for me the difference arises in verse 1.

JKV "Who do not walk according to the flesh"

NIV does not translate that.

KJV is textus receptus whereas the NIV is Nestle Aland (or something like that)

So to me if you read the KJV a believer can be led to believe that if at times they walk in the flesh they are condemned therefore it leads to a sinless perfection works orientated walk with Jesus, which detracts from relationship.

Yet we find Paul talking about sin, sin that resides in the flesh, yet it is him not sinning.

So to me the KJV leads to doing, working harder rather than being whom we are in Jesus which leads to doing.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
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Impossible.....to believe what you believe is to make Jesus into an inept liar that does not keep his word.

JESUS BEGINS, FINISHES and COMPLETES the work of faith he begins in us. TO say the bolded above ^^^^^ states clearly that HE DOES NOT FINISH and COMPLETE something he STARTED <---makes him into a weak inept liar that cannot keep his word.

Exactly why your view is false.
I believe that Jesus never gives up on the believer. But I do believe that a believer can give up on Jesus, and in the process, loses his eternal life. Jesus will force no man to heaven. So that is why Jesus emphasized believers to follow him and keep his commandments, so they would not backslide and lose their eternal life status.

If what you say is true, there is no reson to follow Jesus or keep his commandments, or to love or to do good works even for the love of Jesus Christ or for his glory. There is no reason to do anything but wait for the end of your life and get resurrected and find yourself in heaven. Something tells me there is more to it than being imputed believe and imputed faith, and imputed works and imputed eternal life, with no reponsibility on your part. God picks you and imputs all you need for salvation and you find yourself automatically in heaven. That is what Calvin taught. Do you believe in the Calvinist doctrines?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
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I think for me the difference arises in verse 1.

JKV "Who do not walk according to the flesh"

NIV does not translate that.

KJV is textus receptus whereas the NIV is Nestle Aland (or something like that)

So to me if you read the KJV a believer can be led to believe that if at times they walk in the flesh they are condemned therefore it leads to a sinless perfection works orientated walk with Jesus, which detracts from relationship.

Yet we find Paul talking about sin, sin that resides in the flesh, yet it is him not sinning.

So to me the KJV leads to doing, working harder rather than being whom we are in Jesus which leads to doing.
What you are saying is that according to the translation, you may think differently about what it means to be saved, am I right?