Not By Works

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Many scriptures seem to have us believe in ES. But too many scriptures that obliterate ES. I have decided to believe in Christ and do what he says. Hope that is not an evil approach to salvation.
lol. Wow. This really supports your case.. Ha Ha.. What a joke.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediatelyreceives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20-21



  • For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.




You’ve done nothing except slander and deny they very condition for salvation Jesus says is required.


Believe.


If a person believes then no longer believes, they are no longer a believer.



JLB
There is no root.

How can one be saved without the root (christ)

There is no condition for salvation, that would make salvation be of works.

The tax collector did not fulfill a condition. He understood the only condition required was the cross. and he begged God for mercy based on CHRIST fulfilling the condition.

One must ask when you and ben will do this? and stop depending on self?
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediatelyreceives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20-21



  • For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.




You’ve done nothing except slander and deny they very condition for salvation Jesus says is required.


Believe.


If a person believes then no longer believes, they are no longer a believer.



JLB

lol do you believe your own nonsense?

find one post where i say unbelievers are saved


no root

they were never in Christ

never born again
they accepted some knowledge
then instantly rejected the truth once something pops up


mark 4

3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:

4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.

5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:

6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.

8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.


______________

14 The sower soweth the word.

15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

(called but not chosen <- no saving faith
not born again.... no root


their hearts were not transformed but rejected the seed
they would reject Him the moment they hear of the truth)

____________

16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;

17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

(again no root... not born again
no enduring faith


trials and tribulations were enough to prove they did not have a saving faith)
______________

18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,

19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.


(no saving faith... they turn from the knowledge of God to jump back into a life of living in and justifying sin and worldly pleasures instead of accepting they are wicked and need Him)

(like the reprobate)

(never born again)

Romans 1
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

____________



20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

^^
(theeeese are born again sons/daughters of God)

___________
Hebrews 10:39
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.


(and unlike demons who know of Him but have no faith IN Him

there is fruit due to being rooted IN Him)

(born again by grace through faith.... not works)

1 peter


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

(we are those who no doubt continue in the faith)
______________
1 john 2
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

________
(not those who fall away into unbelief)


heres a bump for context i posted the last time you misused that verse
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
new page
bump for ben to accept he is not able to understand what he reads when he looks at the scriptures

vvvvv

these verses have nothing to do with salvation

other than the last giving assurance to His own


you think the 7 candlesticks represent bundles of salvation that are taken away?:ROFL:


no.

they represent the churches

your false gospel doesnt hold up to any sort of biblical standards

Revelation 2
2 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

To ephesus specifically- an actual church
this is what HE (Jesus) says
to the 7 candlesticks which are the 7 churches



2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

He knows this church does well according to their deeds and are able to cast down false doctrine and cannot stand those who push these false doctrine



3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

they have done these things in the name of Jesus and do not tire of doing these specific good deeds

4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.


But God is upset because He sees their zeal... their passion they once had died down despite their works He sees their hearts

5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.


remember the passion and love they once had for our Father back when they had first been delivered from the world and overcame

and fully do these things you USED to do with passion and love instead of some dutiful half hearted attempt or else God will remove this church - candlestick (which is no longer around) unless they repent of this lack of love

3340. metanoeó
Strong's Concordance​
metanoeó: to change one's mind or purpose

Original Word: μετανοέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: metanoeó
Phonetic Spelling: (met-an-o-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I repent, change my mind
Definition: I repent, change my mind, change the inner man (particularly with reference to acceptance of the will of God), repent.​



6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.

but you still have done well in hating the deeds of these i also hate from the nicolaitanes <- encouragement to wrap up the warning and reproof

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

To those that have an ear <- His sheep this Spirit reminds us

those of us who have overcome you have my word you will eat of the tree of life <- assurance to His children He just chastened and warned




1 john


4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God



BENS ANTI-GRACE GOSPEL - 0

TRUTH - 1


^^^^^^^

ben claims these verses are about born again believers losing salvation

ben claims many verses "destroy" eternal security

ben has yet to post one
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
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Another strawman, Interpret the word to fit our view and not the word.

The parable of the sower is responses to the gospel. If you do not respond correctly, Your not saved (As paul said, there is only one gospel anyone who teaches another is to be accursed)

There is only one possible correct response. not many, Straight and norrow is the gate, Not wide (many ways) . the wide gate is the path to destruction
How wide the path is tho EL is not the subject matter of the parable of the sower. But thanks anyway.

The subject matter is: there are some who hear the word but before they can believe they are distracted away.
There are those who receive the word and believe it (and according to you should be immediately saved) but when tempted and persecuted, let go of the gospel and return to their old selves, and give up their EL.
There are those that receive the gospel and believe and turn into workers for Jesus and bring forth fruit for the KOG.

Insuring us that ES is not a true doctrine.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
new page
bump for ben to accept he is not able to understand what he reads when he looks at the scriptures

vvvvv

these verses have nothing to do with salvation

other than the last giving assurance to His own


you think the 7 candlesticks represent bundles of salvation that are taken away?:ROFL:


no.

they represent the churches

your false gospel doesnt hold up to any sort of biblical standards

Revelation 2
2 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

To ephesus specifically- an actual church
this is what HE (Jesus) says
to the 7 candlesticks which are the 7 churches



2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

He knows this church does well according to their deeds and are able to cast down false doctrine and cannot stand those who push these false doctrine



3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

they have done these things in the name of Jesus and do not tire of doing these specific good deeds

4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.


But God is upset because He sees their zeal... their passion they once had died down despite their works He sees their hearts

5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.


remember the passion and love they once had for our Father back when they had first been delivered from the world and overcame

and fully do these things you USED to do with passion and love instead of some dutiful half hearted attempt or else God will remove this church - candlestick (which is no longer around) unless they repent of this lack of love

3340. metanoeó
Strong's Concordance​
metanoeó: to change one's mind or purpose

Original Word: μετανοέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: metanoeó
Phonetic Spelling: (met-an-o-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I repent, change my mind
Definition: I repent, change my mind, change the inner man (particularly with reference to acceptance of the will of God), repent.​



6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.

but you still have done well in hating the deeds of these i also hate from the nicolaitanes <- encouragement to wrap up the warning and reproof

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

To those that have an ear <- His sheep this Spirit reminds us

those of us who have overcome you have my word you will eat of the tree of life <- assurance to His children He just chastened and warned




1 john


4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God



BENS ANTI-GRACE GOSPEL - 0

TRUTH - 1


^^^^^^^

ben claims these verses are about born again believers losing salvation

ben claims many verses "destroy" eternal security

ben has yet to post one
This is a sentence of death by Jesus Christ that the church of Ephesus either repent and get back on the path, or their candlestick will be removed from the 7 candlesticks. It cannot be more clear. Repent or be removed out of the book of Life.

Any other interpretation is just twisting to get this scripture to fall into your ES belief. It does not sustain ES, it obliterates it.
 
Oct 31, 2015
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lol do you believe your own nonsense?

find one post where i say unbelievers are saved

Is your heart so dull that you need it spelled out for you like a little kid.


Can you understand that these who are being persecuted are believers.

B-E-L-I-E-V-E-R-S are the people being discussed who because they are under persecution, for being believers, they turn away from Christ and renounce Him as Messiah and Lord.

These who once believed, no longer believe, having renounced Jesus as Messiah, the Savior.


As Paul explains, their initial believing was of no use because the did not endure to the end; did not believe to the end.


They returned to unbelief.



JLB
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
How wide the path is tho EL is not the subject matter of the parable of the sower. But thanks anyway.

The subject matter is: there are some who hear the word but before they can believe they are distracted away.
There are those who receive the word and believe it (and according to you should be immediately saved) but when tempted and persecuted, let go of the gospel and return to their old selves, and give up their EL.
There are those that receive the gospel and believe and turn into workers for Jesus and bring forth fruit for the KOG.

Insuring us that ES is not a true doctrine.
Lol well thanks for your OPINION, but. Would rather stick to facts,

If one does not come to faith, and have their faith ROOTED in christ, they are not saved, what you see in the parable is only one group who had their faith deeply rooted, the rest have no faith at all, just wishy washy believe, thats why their faith could not stand, because their true faith was in other things, not christ.

But hey, keep thinking god saves people who really never trusted him to begin with because he could not know. Keep humanising God, it just makes your argument weaker. And helps those who are honestly seeking truth to see where your root is grounded (not in christ)
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
This is a sentence of death by Jesus Christ that the church of Ephesus either repent and get back on the path, or their candlestick will be removed from the 7 candlesticks. It cannot be more clear. Repent or be removed out of the book of Life.

Any other interpretation is just twisting to get this scripture to fall into your ES belief. It does not sustain ES, it obliterates it.
Rev is talking about churches, not induviduals in those churches,

If the church in america does not repent, god will remove its lampstand, that does not mean there are no more saved people in america, or any local churches who do not stand for the living God,

To try to use rev and the 7 churches to support nosas is quite comical
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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ya ive heard professing jews and muslims say they believe He died on the cross and was a real man

they just deny He is Christ and have no belief in His promises or word

if you deny Him as the only Lord and savior and call Him a liar...

that isnt faith in Him
Yet what is interesting and is critical to salvation is the following.

Romans 10:8-13
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

One can only be raised from the dead if they have died.

We have the swoon theory, that Jesus did not die on the cross but survived it.
We can discount that, the Romans knew what they were doing. It was an art form.
Ultimate humiliation and no one could survive that.

Then we have other theories that say Jesus was replaced on the cross.

Then we have Jesus died and that's it.
Yet no evidence of the dead body being produced. You would have thought to discredit the claims of the discisples then the dead mans broken body would have been produced.

That being the case then in legal terms of Habeas Corpus, produce the body.
The Jews nor the Romans could not do that.

Of course they could not because the body in the tomb was no longer in it.

I have spoken to many people about Jesus, they believe he was a real person, did good things, relate him to ghandi and the likes.

Then say do good works and hopefully get into heaven.

When I press in concerning Jesus and his purpose and price paid and resurrection, they then baulk and reject he rose from the dead.

Given want Paul says the physical resurrection is essential to salvation.
Nothing more or nothing less.

So I find given a few instances that when one crosses from he didn't rise again to that he did, then the said one is willing to confess that and make him Lord.

I have had the privilege 3 times of walking with people who baulked at the physical resurrection to then see them confess it.

When they did they made him Lord and saviour, I have had the privilege of baptising them.

And boy are they growing, yes growing and learning.

They were saved by faith in the physical resurrected Jesus.
Not by their works but because of what Jesus has done for them.

So I say if we were saved whilst we were sinners void of works why would that change afterwards?

It wont.

How does God see us after we place faith in Jesus?

As his son, just as Jesus is his son.

In his letters to the churches how did Paul address them?

Sinners or saints?

So I conclude that we are saved by faith through grace void of works.
We are saved whilst sinners because of his love for us.
We are now in Jesus.
God, He works good in all things to conform us to the image of Jesus.
That being the case then we will do good works, not be saved but because we want to be like Jesus.
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
This is a sentence of death by Jesus Christ that the church of Ephesus either repent and get back on the path, or their candlestick will be removed from the 7 candlesticks. It cannot be more clear. Repent or be removed out of the book of Life.

Any other interpretation is just twisting to get this scripture to fall into your ES belief. It does not sustain ES, it obliterates it.

oh so you believe the candle sticks represent the 7 salvations?


makes no sense what so ever

your false gospel is easy to refute with the truth ben
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,280
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No it’s not.

The teaching of the Sower deals with people who believe and are saved, and because of persecution they turn away from Him and deny him so as to save their life.

In the first century this persecution was carried out by unbelieving Jews who were persecuting their countrymen who believed, trying to turn them away from Christ by turning back to the antichrist religion of Judaism.

That is what is being discussed here in Luke 8:12-13


12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13


Those who believe are saved.

Those who believe for a while then reject Jesus Christ to save their own life will lose their eternal life.



JPT
That being the case is it relevant today in terms of our Western culture?
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
Is your heart so dull that you need it spelled out for you like a little kid.


Can you understand that these who are being persecuted are believers.

B-E-L-I-E-V-E-R-S are the people being discussed who because they are under persecution, for being believers, they turn away from Christ and renounce Him as Messiah and Lord.

These who once believed, no longer believe, having renounced Jesus as Messiah, the Savior.


As Paul explains, their initial believing was of no use because the did not endure to the end; did not believe to the end.


They returned to unbelief.



JLB

ehhh?

you spelled it out like a little kid?


i mean given there is so much error in how you "spelled it out" i guess i agree

you did spell it out like a kid who has not yet learned to spell correctly


anyways mr.Judge of the heart

you may consider those who have no root in Christ.... no enduring faith... willingly ignorant saved
but God is not decieved

He actually reads the heart (unlike some who seem to think they do)

you can continue to believe that the new heart He puts in His children and the indwelling Holy spirit lead to unbelief


but i have confidence that He who began a good work in me

will perform it until the day of Christ

i have confidence He will in no wise cast out those who are His

and i believe the bible

which clearly states those who go out from us were never of us or no doubt would have continued with us

and we are not of them that fall away but of them that believe unto the salvation


and God has blessed me with enough faith in Him that all you false gospel peddlers and accusers of the brethren cannot even shake my foundation in Christ
 
Oct 31, 2015
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That being the case is it relevant today in terms of our Western culture?
Now more than ever.

It matters not if you renounce Him because of Judaism or Islam or Homo’s or the antichrist.

Those who endure to the end are saved.



JPT
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,582
2,046
113
North Carolina
Much ado about nothing for those who are determined to believe one has to work and has to be baptized in order for salvation and one has to continue following the Law in order to hold fast to that salvation. Where is the security in that?
 
Oct 31, 2015
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ehhh?

you spelled it out like a little kid?


i mean given there is so much error in how you "spelled it out" i guess i agree

you did spell it out like a kid who has not yet learned to spell correctly


anyways mr.Judge of the heart

you may consider those who have no root in Christ.... no enduring faith... willingly ignorant saved
but God is not decieved

He actually reads the heart (unlike some who seem to think they do)

you can continue to believe that the new heart He puts in His children and the indwelling Holy spirit lead to unbelief


but i have confidence that He who began a good work in me

will perform it until the day of Christ

i have confidence He will in no wise cast out those who are His

and i believe the bible

which clearly states those who go out from us were never of us or no doubt would have continued with us

and we are not of them that fall away but of them that believe unto the salvation


and God has blessed me with enough faith in Him that all you false gospel peddlers and accusers of the brethren cannot even shake my foundation in Christ

Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.


Those who endure to the end are saved.


9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Thenmany false prophets will rise up anddeceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will growcold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:9-14


JPT
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,280
4,011
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Now more than ever.

It matters not if you renounce Him because of Judaism or Islam or Homo’s or the antichrist.

Those who endure to the end are saved.



JPT
So to renounce him is because you go back to Judaism or Islam or to be a Homo?

When you say Homo's do you mean Homosexual?

Now I'm assuming you do.
If so can you add to the list
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.
Jps man centered doctrine of revolving door salvation to even those who have no genuine faith based according to their own will and what they do

where Gods promises are ignored
and His power belittled

where you ignore the work God does in His children and what it means to be born again

backed up with no scripture that he doesnt personally twist
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Much ado about nothing for those who are determined to believe one has to work and has to be baptized in order for salvation and one has to continue following the Law in order to hold fast to that salvation. Where is the security in that?
Do you realize their are 8 scriptures in the bible that admonish us to "hold fast" to the gospel unto the end. The question is: if ES is immediate upon belief, why must we "hold fast" until the end. If our EL is guaranteed, why must we "hold fast" to the things we have learned until the end?

It is because in the apostles life time, they saw a lot of new converts, who believed and were immediately saved, but then fell away and were eventually lost. So their call to "hold fast" even until the end. ES is false security. We must not be hearers of the word only, but doers of the word and "hold fast" until the Lord comes again.

Another word is "stedfast".
1 Corinthians 15:58
58 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labor is not [a]vain in the Lord. (did Paul really say that!!!)

Why must we remain stedfast in the work of the Lord if our EL is assured immediately after we believe?

But I expect you are "holding fast" and will be "stedfast" and so you will be OK.