Not By Works

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VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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So what glory is Jesus giving us then in John 17?
If you read the text, it defines it.

John 17:22-24 (HCSB)
22 I have given them the glory You have given Me. May they be one as We are one.
23 I am in them and You are in Me. May they be made completely one, so the world may know You have sent Me and have loved them as You have loved Me.
24 Father, I desire those You have given Me to be with Me where I am. Then they will see My glory, which You have given Me because You loved Me before the world’s foundation.



The GLORY that Jesus prayed for, is THAT WE WILL BE IN HIM, and HE WILL BE IN US. And I absolutely believe the FATHER answered that prayer LITERALLY. That is why the ONE BAPTISM has to be the IMMERSION INTO THE SPIRITUAL BODY OF CHRIST and HE IS IN US, which happens by the HOLY SPIRIT.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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I have learned many good things from this thread, when we reach God's heavenly shores we will hear
Are you saying that man doesn't have the choice to believe or reject the Gospel. Are you saying that God chooses to cause some to believe and leave others in unbelief.
Do you believe in predestination and election or do you believe man chooses to believe or not to believe. There are good Biblical arguments to support either of these views, I would like to know what your view is and why. Thank you
Yes I believe in choice but in matters of salvation to me God makes the choice and I am more than satisfied with that. When my will is aligned with God's will all of my choices will be the right choice prayerfully.

I am okay with some of the 5 points of Calvinism but I remain open to what the bible teaches. For instance I do not believe in double predestination, one person destined to hell and one person destined to heaven.

I grew up as a babe in Christ at Grace Community Church, Pastor Teacher John MacArthur, and they teach 5 point Calvinsm.

I am just a garden variety Christian, I have no pedigree, other than I love Jesus and pray I will worship Him in Spirit and in truth and serve Him faithfully for eternity.

Its late and I am in need of rest, God bless and thank you.
 

PurpleCandles

Active member
Jun 23, 2018
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Righteousness through the law and righteousness through the love of Jesus are 2 different things. One is not going to save, the other is part of the practical sanctification process. You must be fully sanctified in order to be saved.
Do you know what fully sanctified would entail?


I think it might help if discussions like this put one thing at the forefront before it got started. The warning against blaspheming the holy spirit. Which is God. Part of blasphemy is putting words in God's word that God didn't put there himself.
 

Danny1988

Active member
Jun 24, 2018
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I have learned many good things from this thread, when we reach God's heavenly shores we will hear


Yes I believe in choice but in matters of salvation to me God makes the choice and I am more than satisfied with that. When my will is aligned with God's will all of my choices will be the right choice prayerfully.

I am okay with some of the 5 points of Calvinism but I remain open to what the bible teaches. For instance I do not believe in double predestination, one person destined to hell and one person destined to heaven.

I grew up as a babe in Christ at Grace Community Church, Pastor Teacher John MacArthur, and they teach 5 point Calvinsm.

I am just a garden variety Christian, I have no pedigree, other than I love Jesus and pray I will worship Him in Spirit and in truth and serve Him faithfully for eternity.

Its late and I am in need of rest, God bless and thank you.
Thank you for making the effort to answer my difficult question, I respect your position and honesty. I also struggle to get my mind around how election and predestination work. God works in mysterious ways, so we have to acknowledge that we won't understand His ways in all things but we stll trust and obey Him in all things.
The Church is divided over many different views of election and predestination, we should be united in Christ and accept that we won't come to a consensus on some of the difficult questions. The most important thing is that we agree on who Jesus is and what He taught and commanded us to do. As for who will be save and who won't, only God knows that so we should accept the fact that we won't understand or agree on everything that's written in the Bible.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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I desire growth, any advice on growth?
1. Get into the word
2. Find a trusted brother who has been walking for awhile and is mature, and get into a disciple relationship with him, someone you can be open with, because you need help with your struggles, which we all have
3. Find a local body, and become part of it
4. Find a way to be used of God and serve, even when you do not want to.
5. Pray often
 
Mar 14, 2011
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So now you have a chance to make things right.


Does a person have to obey the Gospel to be saved?
  1. Yes a person must obey the Gospel to be saved.
  2. No a person does not need to obey the Gospel to be saved.

Be truthful!



JPT
Dude give it up, he answered you so many times, and your lies and deciept landd you it seems on his prayer list, of whch your close to being added to a few others i am sure,
 
Mar 14, 2011
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I believe 100 percent in "Monergism" as opposed to Synergism", from being born again from above to my going home to be with our Heavenly Father. Everything that has happened to my Christian life including my "Justification and the imputed righteousness of Christ and being sealed by the Holy Spirit who is our guarantor of our inheritance, is of God and none of myself.

Everything has been 100 percent of God's grace and mercy in my life and zero percent of my doing anything.

Monergism is the view within Christian theology which holds that God works through the Holy Spirit to bring about the salvation of an individual through spiritual regeneration, regardless of the individual's cooperation.

"Not By Works
I hate doctrinal names off stuff, it puts people into a bind, and a hole which causes alot of disagreement. Think.

I believe like you do, ot of works, but i also believe we can thwart his work, by resistnt his call, and b denying his truth (unbelievers) and by resisting his call as believers to work out our salvation, as he works in us, and thus grieve the spirit. And remain babes,
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Does a person have to obey the Gospel to be saved?
  1. Yes a person must obey the Gospel to be saved.
  2. No a person does not need to obey the Gospel to be saved.
Yes, a person must obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16). To believe the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

*What do YOU believe it means to OBEY the gospel? :unsure:
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
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Cf
vvvvv

matthew 19

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

_________

Jesus was telling this man how to be perfect

this man believed his works regarding the commandments were perfect (including loving his neighbor as himself)

Jesus is saying ohhhhh is that so?

then give up all your things and follow me
(to expose where this mans heart really was.... it is not evil to have possessions)



22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

____________



again same principal

Luke 10
25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
(again a man looking to be justified by works)
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
(this man believes he actually does this fully)
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
(Jesus says knowing this man is self righteous yaaa thats all you need then if you are correct)
29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
(as if he truely does this knowing Jesus does not believe him asks ohhh who is my neighbor maybe i am wrong mockingly)


30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.

31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,

34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

____________


that amount of money
as well as offering for excess was .... a lot of money at that time....

this exposes that man who believed he was doing these things is actually wrong......

he does not love his enemy as himself as he ought to in order to be perfect

let alone his literal neighbor....
people try to take and mix up

reproof

instruction for righteousness

the law

and works

and try to say a man needs more than grace and faith to be saved (which isnt true)
I SUGGEST THAT YOU ASK A KID TO READ THE PASSAGE AND ASK HIM/HER WHAT IT SAYS AND COMPARE IT TO YOUR INTERPRETATION.

YOU DID NOT MENTION JESUS INSTRUCTION TO OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS AS HIS REPLY TO THE RICH MAN'S QUESTION ON HOW TO GET ETERNAL LIFE.

IF YOU WERE THAT MAN, WILL YOU OBEY JESUS OR WILL YOU. TELL HIM THAT YOUR FAITH ALONE SAVED YOU AND YOU CAN NO LONGER LOSE YOUR SALVATION.

THE RICH MAN IS A JEW AND HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS IS THROUGH THE LAW AND JESUS WOULD SURELY REBUKE THE MAN IF HE WAS BOASTING OF HIS WORKS OR JUST LIEING .('COZ YOU BELIEVE THAT NO ONE CAN KEEP THE LAW)

THIS PASSAGE IS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF HOW THIS GENERATION WOULD TURN THEIR BACKS ON JESUS.

GREED, SELFISHNESS AND DISOBEDIENCE.

Ephesians 5:6-9,11-14 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things GOD'S WRATH COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT. Therefore do not be partners with them. For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. For it is shameful even to mention what the DISOBEDIENT do in secret. But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: WAKE UP, O sleeper, RISE FROM THE DEAD, and Christ will shine on you.”
 
Mar 14, 2011
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I have told you this before, BOTH OF YOUR QUESTION, because your approach your line of 2 questions with a PRESUPPOSITION that rules out the truth.

IT IS NOT A QUESTION to formulate WHO IS SAVED AND WHO IS NOT. IT IS A FREE GIFT OF GOD. Obedience HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION, it is PART OF OUR LOVE, that GOD HIMSELF PUT IN US, so that we can LOVE HIM AND OUR BRETHREN. LOVING HIM HAPPENS AFTER SALVATION.

In fact, TWO ERRORS NEVER DID MAKE A RIGHT, - - - IT IS JUST DOUBLY WRONG.
But as many as have RECEIVED him, TO THEM HE GAVE THe RIGHT to become CHILDREN OF GOD

John makes it quite clear who are adopted and who are not.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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The Gospel is: Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.
JPT
Well thats your first mistake, because that is not the gospel, that was a command to repent because the one who was going to introduce the kingdom was at hand, and they need to have the right mindset for when it is accomplished, so they could be a part of it.

The gospel is jesus and him crucified, and him ressurected, it is john 3 (be born again) john 6, (believe in the one God sent) it to s romans 10. (Call out on the name after you believe in your heart) it is eph 1 and 2 (hear, have faith, be sealed, ot if works) it is all over the word, but t is not what you proclaim.
 
Oct 31, 2015
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YOU STILL GOT IT WRONG, it is NOT part of SALVATION, IT IS PART OF OUR LOVE.


Deuteronomy 13:3 (HCSB)
3 do not listen to that prophet’s words or to that dreamer.
For the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love
the LORD your God with all your heart and all your soul.


I seldom quote the Apocrypha, but somehow this seems appropriate:


Sirach 2:15-17 (NRSV)
15 Those who fear the Lord do not disobey his words, and those who love him keep his ways.
16 Those who fear the Lord seek to please him, and those who love him are filled with his law.
17 Those who fear the Lord prepare their hearts, and humble themselves before him.


IT IS NOT PART OF SALVATION!


1 John 4:19 (HCSB)
19 We love because He first loved us.


John 14:23-24 (NRSV)
23 Jesus answered him, "Those who love me will keep my word, and my Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.
24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words; and the word that you hear is not mine, but is from the Father who sent me.


IT IS PART OF OUR LOVE!

Why are you so ANXIOUS to Rob GOD of the GLORY FOR YOUR FREE GIFT OF SALVATION? DO YOU WANT TO PAT YOURSELF ON THE BACK, or do you want to give all the glory to JESUS who bought and paid for your entire salvation?


1 Corinthians 6:19-20 (NASB)
19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.


LOVE HAPPENS after the FREE GIFT IS APPLIED TO YOUR HEART, which is SALVATION. Then and only then, will you be able to LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD, with the same kind of LOVE that HE HAS SOWN INTO YOUR HEART.


Romans 5:5 (HCSB)
5 This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
So are you saying we don’t have to obey the Gospel to be saved?


JPT
 
Oct 31, 2015
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You got more of it right than I thought you would. HOWEVER, the sentence in red is NOT SALVATION, it is talking about SANCTIFICATION, that ALWAYS COMES AFTER SALVATION. Perhaps I have discovered the FLAW in your theology. You think Salvation and Sanctification are the SAME THING, do you not? They are totally different terms, and happen at different times in the Believers Life. SALVATION is applied to our HEART, the moment the Holy Spirit births our Human Spirit into Eternal Life. Sanctification is a lifelong struggle of becoming more and more like CHRIST Himself.

Just so you know, that your first part of your post was very good, here is the definition of GOSPEL from Wikipedia:

"Gospel is the Old English translation of Greek, meaning "good news". . . . was used at the time of the Roman Empire to herald the good news of the arrival of a kingdom . . . The word "gospel" actually refers to the news of the kingdom, the message itself, . . ."


The GOT QUESTIONS Ministry puts it this way:

"Answer: The word gospel means “good news,” so the gospel of Christ is the good news of His coming to provide forgiveness of sins for all who will believe (Colossians 1:14; Romans 10:9). . . .

The gospel of Jesus Christ is the good news that God provided the way for man to be freed from the penalty of sin (John 14:6; Romans 6:23). But not all people will be saved from hell; only those who place their faith in Jesus will go to heaven when they die (Acts 4:12).

The gospel of Jesus Christ is the best news anyone will ever hear, and what a person does with this news will determine where he or she spends eternity. God is calling you to choose life. Call on the name of the Lord and be saved (Romans 10:13)."

But they have not all obeyed the gospel.


14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:14-16


Hopefully now you see that obeying the Gospel is about salvation.



JPT
 
Mar 14, 2011
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But they have not all obeyed the gospel.


14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:14-16


Hopefully now you see that obeying the Gospel is about salvation.



JPT
Hopefully you reread and realise there is nothing in that passage about works of righteousness. Of which you keep preaching is requird to salvation.

The passage says this

How can we CALL in who we do not BELIEVE

How can we BELIEVE in who we have not HEARD

How can they HEAR unless someone TELL THEM

It all fits, faith comes by HEARING and HEARING by the WORD OF GOD,

Which is what all the people you keep attacking keep trying to show you what it means to OBAY the gospel,
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Hopefully now you see that obeying the Gospel is about salvation.
Hopefully you will come to see that we OBEY the gospel by CHOOSING TO BELIEVE THE GOSPEL (Romans 1:16; 10:16).

*Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow and are produced "out of" faith.

The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.
 

Danny1988

Active member
Jun 24, 2018
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Hopefully you will come to see that we OBEY the gospel by CHOOSING TO BELIEVE THE GOSPEL (Romans 1:16; 10:16).

*Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow and are produced "out of" faith.

The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.
Many people have different ideas about what the Gospel means, you will find that they hold to their view firmly and they will refuse to consider any other view. That's just human nature, we all like to be right even though there is only one true Gospel men have made 10 different Gospels.
There are many different ways to understand the Bible, that's why we have so many different Christian denominations all claiming their way of understanding the Bible is the right way. The Catholics look at all the arguments between the denominations and laugh, and think themselves lucky to be in the one true and Apostolic Church.
I don't think that we are all called to be Bible scholars, that's why we have Church Elders and Theologians who dedicate their lives to study the scriptures. Even they have difficulty so don't feel bad if you or any other person here struggles with it.