Not By Works

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Mar 14, 2011
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Many people have different ideas about what the Gospel means, you will find that they hold to their view firmly and they will refuse to consider any other view. That's just human nature, we all like to be right even though there is only one true Gospel men have made 10 different Gospels.
There are many different ways to understand the Bible, that's why we have so many different Christian denominations all claiming their way of understanding the Bible is the right way. The Catholics look at all the arguments between the denominations and laugh, and think themselves lucky to be in the one true and Apostolic Church.
I don't think that we are all called to be Bible scholars, that's why we have Church Elders and Theologians who dedicate their lives to study the scriptures. Even they have difficulty so don't feel bad if you or any other person here struggles with it.
Actually there are basically only three gospels

1. works - states salvation is gained or maintained by obedience to a set f rules (law) a set of sacraments, salvation can be lost

2. grace through faith - states salvation can not be earned it was paid for bunthe blood of christ (redemption) and he who began a giod work will complete it until the day of christ.

3. Licentiousness or free grace - states a person is saved by saying a prayer, and thus he can live however he wants, hearers of the word not doers of the word, may believe in God but has no faith in God.

Point number 1 is massive and most of so called churches would follow here in varying degrees, with the catholic church in a tie with jewish roots for most works, to churches which state we just have to be baptised in wwater and be good people.

The catholic church should not laugh, she is one of the biggest offendors. And while she may be right in the fact alot who left he are different, sadly they kept alot of her dangerous doctrines. So are just as guilty and in grand scheme are really no different when it comes to the gospel.
 

Danny1988

Active member
Jun 24, 2018
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Actually there are basically only three gospels

1. works - states salvation is gained or maintained by obedience to a set f rules (law) a set of sacraments, salvation can be lost

2. grace through faith - states salvation can not be earned it was paid for bunthe blood of christ (redemption) and he who began a giod work will complete it until the day of christ.

3. Licentiousness or free grace - states a person is saved by saying a prayer, and thus he can live however he wants, hearers of the word not doers of the word, may believe in God but has no faith in God.

Point number 1 is massive and most of so called churches would follow here in varying degrees, with the catholic church in a tie with jewish roots for most works, to churches which state we just have to be baptised in wwater and be good people.

The catholic church should not laugh, she is one of the biggest offendors. And while she may be right in the fact alot who left he are different, sadly they kept alot of her dangerous doctrines. So are just as guilty and in grand scheme are really no different when it comes to the gospel.
I've been reading through many of the threads here and found more than those three views of the Gospel.

Some have said, you need to obey Gods laws before He saves you.

Some have said , you must believe in the finished work of Christ before He saves you.

Some have said, you don't do anything. God chooses whom He will save and He does it all from the start to the end.

Some have said, you must believe and obey before God saves you.

Some have said, you must stop sinning, have faith and believe before He saves you.

It's interesting how many different views there are, they all seem to have some merit to them so it can be confusing trying to work out which one is the most Biblical.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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I've been reading through many of the threads here and found more than those three views of the Gospel.

Some have said, you need to obey Gods laws before He saves you.

Some have said , you must believe in the finished work of Christ before He saves you.

Some have said, you don't do anything. God chooses whom He will save and He does it all from the start to the end.

Some have said, you must believe and obey before God saves you.
That would fit under point 1 (works)

Some have said, you must stop sinning, have faith and believe before He saves you.
This too would fit under point 1, works

It's interesting how many different views there are, they all seem to have some merit to them so it can be confusing trying to work out which one is the most Biblical.
Any good lie has to be based under some truth to be believable, or to have any kind of merit, so it is understandable.

Satan is the master of lies, he is the master of mixing truth and lie and making doctines which appear to have merit, and get people to follow that lie, which only leads to destruction.
 

Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
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I've been reading through many of the threads here and found more than those three views of the Gospel.

Some have said, you need to obey Gods laws before He saves you.

Some have said , you must believe in the finished work of Christ before He saves you.

Some have said, you don't do anything. God chooses whom He will save and He does it all from the start to the end.

Some have said, you must believe and obey before God saves you.

Some have said, you must stop sinning, have faith and believe before He saves you.

It's interesting how many different views there are, they all seem to have some merit to them so it can be confusing trying to work out which one is the most Biblical.

It is different for different people. It's how we end a race that counts...not how we begin.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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1. Get into the word
2. Find a trusted brother who has been walking for awhile and is mature, and get into a disciple relationship with him, someone you can be open with, because you need help with your struggles, which we all have
3. Find a local body, and become part of it
4. Find a way to be used of God and serve, even when you do not want to.
5. Pray often
Very good advise, and I noticed that you advised him to do good works in serving God, even when you do not want to.

Believe me, you and I are not that far apart. This is almost the exact advise I would give this person. So thank you again for being a good mentor.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Well thats your first mistake, because that is not the gospel, that was a command to repent because the one who was going to introduce the kingdom was at hand, and they need to have the right mindset for when it is accomplished, so they could be a part of it.

The gospel is jesus and him crucified, and him ressurected, it is john 3 (be born again) john 6, (believe in the one God sent) it to s romans 10. (Call out on the name after you believe in your heart) it is eph 1 and 2 (hear, have faith, be sealed, ot if works) it is all over the word, but t is not what you proclaim.
Is John 3, John 6, Romans 10, Ephesians 1&2 the entire gospel? This is your general mistake. You choose 5 or 6 special scriptures from the entire gospel word and focus on what they say, but leave out numerous other gospel scriptures that focus our attention on the pure religion or the pure gospel as explained by James in James 1:27.

I know you know this, you even advised a man to do good works that serves God, so why not give a couple of scriptures that tells us that side of the gospel? Are you so afraid of the words, 'good works'?
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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Thank you for making the effort to answer my difficult question, I respect your position and honesty. I also struggle to get my mind around how election and predestination work. God works in mysterious ways, so we have to acknowledge that we won't understand His ways in all things but we stll trust and obey Him in all things.
The Church is divided over many different views of election and predestination, we should be united in Christ and accept that we won't come to a consensus on some of the difficult questions. The most important thing is that we agree on who Jesus is and what He taught and commanded us to do. As for who will be save and who won't, only God knows that so we should accept the fact that we won't understand or agree on everything that's written in the Bible.
Your are wright God only knows who is saved and who is not saved. There will be some in heaven who you thought would never be there but they are, and there will be some in heaven who you thought for sure they would be there and they are not, but God knows for sure who is saved and who is not.
 
T

theanointedsinner

Guest
1. Get into the word
2. Find a trusted brother who has been walking for awhile and is mature, and get into a disciple relationship with him, someone you can be open with, because you need help with your struggles, which we all have
3. Find a local body, and become part of it
4. Find a way to be used of God and serve, even when you do not want to.
5. Pray often
even when you do not want to. <-- does this also include, even when you have bad motives? or "ulterior impure motives instead of pure motives"?
 
Mar 14, 2011
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even when you do not want to. <-- does this also include, even when you have bad motives? or "ulterior impure motives instead of pure motives"?
I would think so, should we stay home and not serve (a christians primary duty) just because we have the wrong motive?

I go and pray to God, and confess my motive and ask him to show me his hand and humble me, and he has done so many times
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Is John 3, John 6, Romans 10, Ephesians 1&2 the entire gospel? This is your general mistake. You choose 5 or 6 special scriptures from the entire gospel word and focus on what they say, but leave out numerous other gospel scriptures that focus our attention on the pure religion or the pure gospel as explained by James in James 1:27.

I know you know this, you even advised a man to do good works that serves God, so why not give a couple of scriptures that tells us that side of the gospel? Are you so afraid of the words, 'good works'?
The bible does not contradict itself,

Thse passages make point blank promises which can not be contradicted by other passages or else the whole bible is made void,

Many people mix sanctification oassages with gospel passages, thats the issue,
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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I've been reading through many of the threads here and found more than those three views of the Gospel.

Some have said, you need to obey Gods laws before He saves you.

Some have said , you must believe in the finished work of Christ before He saves you.

Some have said, you don't do anything. God chooses whom He will save and He does it all from the start to the end.

Some have said, you must believe and obey before God saves you.

Some have said, you must stop sinning, have faith and believe before He saves you.

It's interesting how many different views there are, they all seem to have some merit to them so it can be confusing trying to work out which one is the most Biblical.

I have found that GOD left special clues to eliminate the CONFUSION:


1 Corinthians 14:33 (ESV)
33 For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,

Proverbs 30:6 (ESV)
6 Do not add to His words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.

1 Corinthians 2:4-16 (ESV)
4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away.
7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”—
10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.
13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

John 3:5-7 (ESV)
5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born again.’


That actually happens when you mourn over your sinful lifestyle, and repent, and LOVINGLY receive HIM as LORD meaning MASTER.


What many do not realize is SALVATION and SANCTIFICATION are to different things that happen to a CHRISTIAN at Different TIMES. Some are not yet Born Again, and others, are in their spiritual infancy, being tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine.


Ephesians 4:13-15 (ESV)
13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.
15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,


So the secret is to MAKE SURE YOU ARE BORN AGAIN. One of the surest ways is to LOVE THE LORD BECAUSE YOU WANT TO, NOT TO GET SOMETHING FROM HIM, THEREFORE THAT LOVE FOR HIM, WILL BE MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE, EVEN A SPOUSE, AND SELF DEAD LAST. So you WILL LOVE your Brethren, MORE than you do yourself.


1 John 3:14-19 (ESV)
14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death.
15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
16 By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers.
17 But if anyone has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him?
18 Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth.
19 By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him;


Now you are ready to discern the TRUTH. NOTICE in verse 17 above, IT says GOD's LOVE abides in US. HOW DID IT GET THERE?


Romans 5:5 (ESV)
5 and hope does not put us to shame, because GOD's LOVE has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.


That is the MOMENT that the Holy Spirit entered your HEART, Birthed the once dead Human Spirit into Eternal Life, and poured GOD's LOVE into that heart. THAT MOMENT IN TIME IS SALVATION the FREE GIFT OF GOD.


Ephesians 2:8-10 (ESV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
[ 🖞 SAVED AND SURE OF IT, solely by the BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST.]

9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Romans 5:15-16 (ESV)
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.


IF YOU ADD ANYTHING TO THAT, YOU HAVE ADDED TO THE WORD OF GOD, and created a FALSE DOCTRINE OF SALVATION. Some of the common man made ADDITIONS are GOOD WORKS, BAPTISM IN WATER, CHURCH MEMBERSHIP, ETC. YES those are the kind of things that your born again human spirit WILL WANT TO DO, AFTER YOU ARE SAVED, but they are NOT part of SALVATION.

So what is SANCTIFICATION? That is the LIFELONG Process of becoming more and more like Christ. Our Bodies will want to CATCH UP With Our Human Spirit, which is sinless and ETERNAL. Like Dr. John MacArthur puts it, "A Christian is not Sinless, however, as he MATURES SPIRITUALLY, he or she will SIN LESS, and SIN LESS, and SIN LESS." The Addiction to a Sinful Lifestyle, is BROKEN, but the Sin Nature is IN OUR BODIES until we die. So it is a process where we feed on the WORD, Maturing our HUMAN SPIRIT, to Walk like CHRIST. Yes, the Human Spirit matures as we FEED on HIS word, and the level of Spiritual Maturity is Directly proportional to our SPIRITUAL DIET. SO How Long until our bodies are LIKE CHRIST? AT THE RESURRECTION:

1 John 3:2-3 (ESV)
2 Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.
3 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.

1 Corinthians 15:42-49 (ESV)
42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.
47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.


In that GLORIFIED BODY, we will not even be able to THINK a SIN.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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The bible does not contradict itself,

Thse passages make point blank promises which can not be contradicted by other passages or else the whole bible is made void,

Many people mix sanctification oassages with gospel passages, thats the issue,
Practical or progressive and utlimate/final sanctification are life long endeavors, on our way to maturing in Jesus. So if you need to be fully sanctified to be saved, that saving process looks like a life-time process. Am I reading this wrong?
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Practical or progressive and utlimate/final sanctification are life long endeavors, on our way to maturing in Jesus. So if you need to be fully sanctified to be saved, that saving process looks like a life-time process. Am I reading this wrong?
If this is required for salvation, A person would have to become so spiritually mature in christ that they have reached a point in thbeir life that that would not longer sin, no matter what the situation is. they would 100% always chose the right way.

This would leave about 100% of christians from ever getting to heaven, because no one can make this, And even if they could, it would leave all babes in chrsit out, All preteens and teens in christ out. and i do nto even know adult believers who have reached this level of sanctification (which by the way the bible calls glorification)

so, where does that leave us?
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,235
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Practical or progressive and utlimate/final sanctification are life long endeavors, on our way to maturing in Jesus. So if you need to be fully sanctified to be saved, that saving process looks like a life-time process. Am I reading this wrong?
Yes, YOU ARE READING IT WRONG.

SALVATION is the first moment of Saving Faith, and that is not HEAD KNOWLEDGE that many think it is. It is Heart Knowledge, and the FACT that GOD's LOVE WAS poured into your HEART the Moment the Holy Spirit came in; WILL start the Process of Sanctification, by receiving HIM as LORD meaning MASTER.

Those who fell away, DID NOT HAVE GOD's LOVE planted or poured into their HEARTS. You are right that Sanctification is a Life-Time process; but IT IS NOT CONNECTED to SALVATION, but the LOVE you have FROM GOD's LOVE poured into your HEART for HIM and the Brethren, can be used as proof that your SALVATION was REAL in the First Place.

THAT FREE GIFT of GOD's will produce the same kind of LOVE within you. HENCE:

Philippians 1:6 (HCSB)
6 I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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Practical or progressive and utlimate/final sanctification are life long endeavors, on our way to maturing in Jesus. So if you need to be fully sanctified to be saved, that saving process looks like a life-time process. Am I reading this wrong?
Hi benher, we are sanctified, "set apart and made holy" the moment we are born again. Practical sanctification happens throughout our earthy Christian life, Jesus High Priestly Prayer, John17:17. We could not begin to serve God without first being sanctified.

Positional Sanctification: You were sanctified when you were born again; " "It is a work God performs."

1Corinthians1:30:
It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Quote:
In Christian theology, sanctification is a state of separation unto God; all believers enter into this state when they are born of God: “You are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption” (1 Corinthians 1:30, ESV). The sanctification mentioned in this verse is a once-for-ever separation of believers unto God. It is a work God performs, an intricate part of our salvation and our connection with Christ (Hebrews 10:10). Theologians sometimes refer to this state of holiness before God as “positional” sanctification; it is the same as justification.

Practical Sanctification: continues on daily throughout our earthly life in Christ.
John17:17
"Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth."
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Hi benher, thank you for pointing this out to me, "we are joint heirs with Christ.",

Romans8:17
"Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory."
That is right, we are joint heirs with Christ, including his glory. We will be glorious beings with Christ as our head. We will be like Moses and Elias when they were with Christ on the Mt. Transfiguration. Brilliant beaming eternal glorified beings.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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That is right, we are joint heirs with Christ, including his glory. We will be glorious beings with Christ as our head. We will be like Moses and Elias when they were with Christ on the Mt. Transfiguration. Brilliant beaming "eternal" glorified beings.
Yes and one day I hope the bible will assure you of the, "security of the believer"...:)
 
Mar 14, 2011
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That is right, we are joint heirs with Christ, including his glory. We will be glorious beings with Christ as our head. We will be like Moses and Elias when they were with Christ on the Mt. Transfiguration. Brilliant beaming eternal glorified beings.
And i will add, humble beings
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
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Hi benher, we are sanctified, "set apart and made holy" the moment we are born again. Practical sanctification happens throughout our earthy Christian life, Jesus High Priestly Prayer, John17:17. We could not begin to serve God without first being sanctified.

Positional Sanctification: You were sanctified when you were born again; " "It is a work God performs."

1Corinthians1:30:
It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Quote:
In Christian theology, sanctification is a state of separation unto God; all believers enter into this state when they are born of God: “You are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption” (1 Corinthians 1:30, ESV). The sanctification mentioned in this verse is a once-for-ever separation of believers unto God. It is a work God performs, an intricate part of our salvation and our connection with Christ (Hebrews 10:10). Theologians sometimes refer to this state of holiness before God as “positional” sanctification; it is the same as justification.

Practical Sanctification: continues on daily throughout our earthly life in Christ.
John17:17
"Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth."
But if we are not saved until we are sanctified, and practical sanctification can take a life time, then we are not truly saved until we are practically sanctified, quite a while after we are positionally sanctified?