Not By Works

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Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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once again, you have been shown a clear Scripture reference as to the charge the jews used to convict Christ, but, in order to defend your religion, you reject it . you and shamah both. so, please stop accusing us of following the commandments of men when you will not even recognize the part of the Mosaic Law that they used, only because it does not fit in your religion.
The post wasn't about you G9. It's not always about you, well, in your mind maybe. But I can see how you may have been stung by it.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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Yes, God's Love has been poured into some men's hearts through the Holy Spirit.

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

As He said. "I will put MY Laws in their inward parts."

At some point those who are truly His will exhibit obedience to His Commandments, not man's religious traditions. You can say a man doesn't have to humble himself to the Word which became Flesh first. You can say we don't repent, Jesus repents for us. You can say we are just randomly picked for Grace because we have no part in our own Salvation. We can argue those doctrines.

But one thing that in not debatable is the fruit of the Spirit is obedience to the God, not disobedience to God.

So whether the chicken came first or the egg came first, they both produce the same thing. a Chicken.
well, like so much other Scripture, you attempt to make it a debate.

the fruits of the Sprit are love, joy , peace , longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness , self-control.

nothing about the Law or Sabbath.

if you did any actual studying , you would understand that fruits of the Sprit are the end goal of the righteousness that the Law intended to bring.

the righteousness intent of the Law. not the letter. the letter kills, the Sprit gives life. same guy ( Paul ) said both these things.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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Why don't you think for just a second and consider "WHO" the "they" were Cee?

Matt. 15:
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.


Matt. 23:4 For they ( The Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time, not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Acts 7:
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Rom. 1:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

John 8:
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it


2 Thess. 2:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Not all, who called themselves the Children of God, rejected God's Word's. Zechariahs, Anna, the Wise Men, Simion, there were more. These didn't reject God's instructions and create their own. These didn't "Transgress the Commandments of God" by their own religious Traditions. These didn't "teach for Doctrines the Commandments of Men".

And as Jesus promised in John 14. He manifest Himself to them just like He did to Abraham and Noah, Elijah and Every other example of Faith in the entire Bible.

How is this not true.
More importantly to us, is who "they" (the false teachers) are today.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
515
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that's not an answer.

was Christ crucified for eating with unwashed hands or for claiming to be equivalent to God?

why is this hard for you to face?
The Christ was hated, belittled, ridiculed, persecuted, lied about and finally murdered by the Mainstream Preachers if His Time because He told the Truth about Himself and His Father which was written in same Book they claimed to know and reverence.

I can see how that might make you a little uncomfortable.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
515
113
More importantly to us, is who "they" (the false teachers) are today.
That would be an easy discernment if one uses the Christ's Words.

Those who "Transgress the Commandments of God by religious traditions. check

Those who have been given God's instructions, but reject them and create their own. check

Those who use parts of God's word, but refuse to consider "EVERY WORD OF GOD". check

Those who honor God with their Lips, not their body. check

Those who create images of God in the likeness of man. check


There you go PS. These are a good indicator of the "false teachers" of any generation.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
515
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well, like so much other Scripture, you attempt to make it a debate.

the fruits of the Sprit are love, joy , peace , longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness , self-control.

nothing about the Law or Sabbath.

if you did any actual studying , you would understand that fruits of the Sprit are the end goal of the righteousness that the Law intended to bring.

the righteousness intent of the Law. not the letter. the letter kills, the Sprit gives life. same guy ( Paul ) said both these things.
So does a person produce these fruits by honoring and obeying our God, or by rejecting His definition of Holy and creating your own.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
7,099
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So does a person produce these fruits by honoring and obeying our God, or by rejecting His definition of Holy and creating your own.
as usual, you do not address what was said, just demand answers to your loaded questions.

you see studyman, you are not the arbiter of Biblical truth. you demand that you are to be allowed to judge everything that is said by your religious opinions. that we justify Scripture by your interpertations , many of which are just your worthless opinions.

well, how about you answer this. Paul stated what the Fruits of the Sprit are. do you agree with Him or not??
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
515
113
as usual, you do not address what was said, just demand answers to your loaded questions.

you see studyman, you are not the arbiter of Biblical truth. you demand that you are to be allowed to judge everything that is said by your religious opinions. that we justify Scripture by your interpertations , many of which are just your worthless opinions.

well, how about you answer this. Paul stated what the Fruits of the Sprit are. do you agree with Him or not??
LOL, I agree with Paul, I just don't agree with you.


12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

So if I believe in the only Son of the Living God, and His Word, then I know if I am faithful to God, and Follow His instructions over the instructions of religious man, I will produce fruits of the Spirit.

But if I am contentious, and am not Faithful to God, and do not obey this truth, then this will be the fruit I produce.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

So the question I asked of you, that you called a "loaded" question.

"So does a person produce these fruits by honoring and obeying our God, or by rejecting His definition of Holy and creating your own."

Isn't a loaded question at all, unless you are not led by the Spirit. Then of course the answer condemns you.

The point being, at least according to the Bible, is God's Spiritual Law produces the Fruit of the Spirit if you keep it. But if you reject it, and rebel against it, the flesh takes over and you produce the other fruit.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
7,099
2,964
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LOL, I agree with Paul, I just don't agree with you.


12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

So if I believe in the only Son of the Living God, and His Word, then I know if I am faithful to God, and Follow His instructions over the instructions of religious man, I will produce fruits of the Spirit.

But if I am contentious, and am not Faithful to God, and do not obey this truth, then this will be the fruit I produce.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

So the question I asked of you, that you called a "loaded" question.

"So does a person produce these fruits by honoring and obeying our God, or by rejecting His definition of Holy and creating your own."

Isn't a loaded question at all, unless you are not led by the Spirit. Then of course the answer condemns you.

The point being, at least according to the Bible, is God's Spiritual Law produces the Fruit of the Spirit if you keep it. But if you reject it, and rebel against it, the flesh takes over and you produce the other fruit.
of course it was a loaded question. because you were going to give this response to what ever I said back to you. because you tie everything to the law of Moses. that is your goal.

you see, what Paul was saying that if one does the righteousness fruits of the Sprit, one will not violate any law.

and, as far as the works of the flesh. the proper translation is " if you practice these things, you will not...." nice try, for a little twist on words, but , don't worry, I caught it.

language . it is kind of important. so is context and chronological order. and trusting Jesus for salvation, and manifesting the fruits of the Sprit , fed by the indwelling Sprit ( the 3rd member of the Trinty ). these are things that Christians care about. you care about..... well, other things.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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The Christ was hated, belittled, ridiculed, persecuted, lied about and finally murdered by the Mainstream Preachers if His Time because He told the Truth about Himself and His Father which was written in same Book they claimed to know and reverence.

I can see how that might make you a little uncomfortable.
is this your way of confessing that yes, He was crucified under the charge of Leviticus 24:16 ((in their unbelief)), not under charges of failing to keep some as-yet-unidentified-human-commandment, as i've been saying ?
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
4,714
593
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That would be an easy discernment if one uses the Christ's Words.
Those who "Transgress the Commandments of God by religious traditions.
The way you promote the Old Covenant over and above the New Covenant transgresses the work of the author of the New Covenant who is Christ himself.

The old covenant came by Moses while the new covenant came by Jesus Christ (John 1:17)
The old covenant was ended by Jesus Christ (Roman 10:4) while the new covenant was established by Jesus Christ (Heb 8:6)
The old covenant had many high priests (Heb. 7:23) while the new covenant has only one high priest (Jesus Christ) (Heb. 7:24-28)
In the old covenant priests (high priest) were sinners (Heb. 5:1-4) while in the new covenant the priest has no sin (Jesus Christ) (Heb. 7:26)
In the old, Moses and prophets were mediators while in the new covenant, Jesus Christ is the mediator
The old covenant needed offering for sin while in the new covenant, Jesus is the perfect sin offering
The old covenant is for Israelites only (Det 4: 7-8) while the new covenant is for all men (Luke 22:20)

God bless

http://www.christiantruthcenter.com/difference-between-the-old-covenant-and-the-new-covenant/

When someone clings to what Jesus ended, I cannot imagine Jesus saying to them, "Well done my good and faithful servant."
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
4,714
593
113
The Christ was hated, belittled, ridiculed, persecuted, lied about and finally murdered by the Mainstream Preachers if His Time because He told the Truth about Himself and His Father which was written in same Book they claimed to know and reverence.

I can see how that might make you a little uncomfortable.
When we consider the example Jesus set by his good works and deeds, I cannot see the difference between the "Mainstream Preachers of his Time" and you.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
515
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is this your way of confessing that yes, He was crucified under the charge of Leviticus 24:16 ((in their unbelief)), not under charges of failing to keep some as-yet-unidentified-human-commandment, as i've been saying ?
Yes, they picked one scripture, twist it, reject all others, which they then use as a weapon to discredit, destroy, and condemn those who would expose them as promoters of man's religion and not God's Word. As Jesus said, they "omitted" the weightier "matters of the Law".

I know, I know, you have taken one sentence from Paul, twisted it, rejected all other Word's of the Christ, and are using this one verse to discredit, destroy and condemn anyone who would say, as Jesus did, that the Pharisees "taught for Doctrines the Commandments of Men" and not God.

Jesus called them out on it, and by extension you.

37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Your peaching that those Pharisees were just innocent victims of an unjust God's unjust Laws is popular it seems. But it wasn't God that condemned the Christ to death. If they were not servants of satan, snared by it to do it's will, they would have known this truth as did Zechariahs, Simion, Anna, and the Wise men.

This is why it is written in both the OT and the NT by the Word which became Flesh.

4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God

But the Mainstream deceivers of His time couldn't do this because HIS Word exposed them as the frauds they were. So they killed His Word, just like they killed the messengers of God Word before HIM.

You know full well what I'm saying, just as many of them knew full well what the scriptures exposed about them. but because of unbelief, man can not to accept.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
9,052
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Yes, God's Love has been poured into some men's hearts through the Holy Spirit.

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

As He said. "I will put MY Laws in their inward parts."

At some point those who are truly His will exhibit obedience to His Commandments, not man's religious traditions. You can say a man doesn't have to humble himself to the Word which became Flesh first. You can say we don't repent, Jesus repents for us. You can say we are just randomly picked for Grace because we have no part in our own Salvation. We can argue those doctrines.

But one thing that in not debatable is the fruit of the Spirit is obedience to the God, not disobedience to God.

So whether the chicken came first or the egg came first, they both produce the same thing. a Chicken.
<><.🕇.><>

Your analogy DOES NOT FIT.

Salvation is a FREE GIFT.

GOD'S LOVE is Planted or Poured into the Heart of a Born Again Christian to PRODUCE a identical Characteristic within that individual.

YOU ARE COMPARING APPLES TO ORANGES, NOT a Chicken and an Egg.

Why do you insist of robbing GOD of the GLORY DUE HIM, and taking it unto yourself?


Romans 7:18 (NRSV)
18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
25,057
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I know, he insists to dwell in his Pharisee-Like Religion, rather than REALLY listening to the Truth.
the thing we hate most, we all turn out to be!

woe, woe, woe!

O wretched man that I am!
Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord!!
So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God;
but with the flesh the law of sin.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit!!
(Romans 7:24-8:1)

let every mouth be shut; let God alone be praised!!
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
7,099
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Yes, they picked one scripture, twist it, reject all others, which they then use as a weapon to discredit, destroy, and condemn those who would expose them as promoters of man's religion and not God's Word. As Jesus said, they "omitted" the weightier "matters of the Law".

I know, I know, you have taken one sentence from Paul, twisted it, rejected all other Word's of the Christ, and are using this one verse to discredit, destroy and condemn anyone who would say, as Jesus did, that the Pharisees "taught for Doctrines the Commandments of Men" and not God.

Jesus called them out on it, and by extension you.

37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Your peaching that those Pharisees were just innocent victims of an unjust God's unjust Laws is popular it seems. But it wasn't God that condemned the Christ to death. If they were not servants of satan, snared by it to do it's will, they would have known this truth as did Zechariahs, Simion, Anna, and the Wise men.

This is why it is written in both the OT and the NT by the Word which became Flesh.

4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God

But the Mainstream deceivers of His time couldn't do this because HIS Word exposed them as the frauds they were. So they killed His Word, just like they killed the messengers of God Word before HIM.

You know full well what I'm saying, just as many of them knew full well what the scriptures exposed about them. but because of unbelief, man can not to accept.
your first sentence is so true. no one should take one snip of one thing that someone said, and twist it to make it say something other than what was intended.

like taking Jesus saying that " you are of your father , the devil" and then using this one snip of one discourse, and twisting that into the Pharisees had thrown out the Torah, and used their own law, then when shown how all the 613 connect back to the Torah, ignore that, and attack anyone who points out this truth.

do you know anyone who has done what I just described, studyman?