Not By Works

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Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
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It is quite simple, if you think about it.

OBEDIENCE is PART OF OUR LOVE, and NEVER was part of our SALVATION.

Please look at 1 John 3:14-19, 1 Pet. 1:22, John 14: 24, and 1 Cor. 13:4-8
19Go ye therefore, and TEACH ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER I HAVE COMMANDED YOU: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

OUR LORD JESUS BEFORE GOING BACK TO THE FATHER INSTRUCTED HIS DISCIPLES TO TEACH OBEDIENCE UNTO ALL NATIONS.

IF ANYONE WOULD TEACH THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WORD, TEACHINGS, LAWS AND COMMANDS, IS NOT NECESSARY OR PART OF SALVATION, DOES HE NOT TEACH CONTRARY TO THE LORD’S TEACHINGS?

WHEN THE LORD SAID THAT “IF YOU WANT TO ENTER LIFE, OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS”, AND SOMEONE ELSE WOULD SAY THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD WILL NOT SAVE ANYONE BECAUSE “FAITH ALONE SAVES”. IS IT NOT A CLEAR REJECTION, NULLIFICATION, DISRESPECT, DISOBEDIENCE, UNBELIEF AND MOCKERY OF GOD’S WORD?

15Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16They profess that they know God; BUT IN WORKS THEY DENY HIM, being ABOMINABLE, and DISOBEDIENT and unto every good work REPROBATE.

4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, TURNING THE GRACE OF OUR GOD INTO (A LICENSE FOR) LASCIVIOUSNESS, and DENYING the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

...Teaching for doctrines the commandments of men….Full well ye reject the commandment of God... making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.(mark 7:6-13)

...because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.(isaiah 5:20-24)

...Be not deceived; GÒD IS NOT MOCKED: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. 9And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. 10As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.(galatians 6:7-10)

32who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are WORTHY OF DEATH, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things COMETH THE WRATH OF .GOD ÙPON THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE

MAN GOT SEPARATED FROM GOD BECAUSE OF THE SIN OF DISOBEDIENCE WHEN MAN WAS DECEIVED BY THE SERPENT WHO SAID THAT “...Ye shall not surely die.”(genesis 3:4)

DÈCEIVERS OF THIS AGE SAYS THE SAME THING;

“YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE (PERIßH / BE CONDEMNED). ONCE YOU'RE SAVED, YOU ARE ALWAYS ßAVED. JUST HAVE FAITH VOID OF WORKS (OF RIGHTEOUSNESS / ÒBEDIENCE) AND YOU WILL POSSESS ETERNAL LIFE THE MOMENT YOU BELIEVE.


IS IT NOT APPOINTED FOR MEN TO DIE ONCE AND FACE JUDGMENT AFTER? (hebrews 9:27-28)

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw THE DEAD, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And WHOSOEVER WAS NOT FOÙND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE WAS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.

“FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD”

JESUS HAS NOT FOUND YOUR WORKS COMPLETE IN THE SIGHT OF GOD. REMEMBER THEREFORE WHÀT YOU HEARD AND RECEIVED. OBEY IT, AND REPENT.(revelations 3:1-6)


47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48HE THAT REJECTETH ME, and RECEIVETH NOT MY WORDS, hath one that judgeth him: THE WORD THAT I HAVE SPOKEN, THE SAME SHALL. JUDGE HIM IN THE LAST DAY. 49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50And I KNOW THAT HIS COMMANDMENT IS LIFE EVERLASTING: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
24,894
6,493
113
Why do Your taught ones not walk according to the tradition of the elders
can we tell a person does not keep the Law at all if we see them ea
yes "touching the Law as a Pharisee"

is using it as a cloak for sin, twisting it, manuipulating it, makeing "loopholes"

example:

Mark 7:

8You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.”

9And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!

10For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’

11But you say, ‘If a man tells his father or his mother, “Whatever you would have gained from me is Corban”’ (that is, given to God)d—

12then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother,

13thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.”
what does this have to do with Leviticus 24:16?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
24,894
6,493
113
Someone threatens their religious rule? Yell "blasphemy!" and murder or imprison them...
did they have just cause to accuse Jesus Christ of making Himself equal to God?

yes or no?

was that a completely spurious & fabricated charge, or does Christ actually make the claim that He is divine?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
24,894
6,493
113
I see, so Jesus was just an innocent victim of a misunderstanding about one of God's unjust and burdensome Laws.
you too:

did Christ claim to be divine, or was that a completely fabricated and spurious charge against Him?
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
687
113
did they have just cause to accuse Jesus Christ of making Himself equal to God?

yes or no?

was that a completely spurious & fabricated charge, or does Christ actually make the claim that He is divine?
He said:

Yahanan/John 14:28, "You have heard that I told you: I go away, but come again to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

The Pharisees said:

John 5:18, "For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."

Paul said:

Philippians 2:6, "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God."

the Pharisees accusations do not make it true...

and Paul viewd it the same as the Pharisees...

Yet Yahshua said clearly:

Yahanan/John 14:28, "You have heard that I told you: I go away, but come again to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
24,894
6,493
113
He said:

Yahanan/John 14:28, "You have heard that I told you: I go away, but come again to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

The Pharisees said:

John 5:18, "For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."

Paul said:

Philippians 2:6, "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God."

the Pharisees accusations do not make it true...

and Paul viewd it the same as the Pharisees...

Yet Yahshua said clearly:

Yahanan/John 14:28, "You have heard that I told you: I go away, but come again to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."
as it is written: He did not consider it robbery to be equal to God.
His prerogative: and He set aside His glory to pitch His tent among us!


Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”
I AM” said Jesus.
And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.
The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked.
“You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?”
(Mark 14:61-63)
is this a completely fabricated charge of blasphemy?
if He is not divine is this charge of blasphemy valid?
is this charge made on the basis of purely human traditions and totally-extra-scriptural commandments of men?
or is this charge made on the basis of putting into practice Leviticus 24:16 -- "
the Law" -- in unbelief?

i am surprised at you Hiz. why do you resist this?
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
He said:

Yahanan/John 14:28, "You have heard that I told you: I go away, but come again to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

The Pharisees said:

John 5:18, "For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."

Paul said:

Philippians 2:6, "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God."

the Pharisees accusations do not make it true...

and Paul viewd it the same as the Pharisees...

Yet Yahshua said clearly:

Yahanan/John 14:28, "You have heard that I told you: I go away, but come again to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."
You're completely tip-toeing around his point.

According to Leviticus, the Jews had every right under the Law to put death someone they considered committing blasphemy. Paul was one of them. He was doing it ignorant of his actions. Which is why Jesus said, "it is hard to kick against the goads..."

And further more answering a question with.

First: John 14:28

Next: John 5:18

Because Paul said: Phil 2:6.

Isn't how you approach the Bible. You're pulling one verse out of different books/passages. You have to approach it through the entire passage. Not this hopping and around stuff. You say you want truth? Well this isn't correct Bible interpretation.

You read an entire book. And you let each context speak to you. I can make the Bible say some pretty wacky stuff if I just pulled out verses that say what I wanted.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
515
113
you too:

did Christ claim to be divine, or was that a completely fabricated and spurious charge against Him?
you too:

did Christ claim to be divine, or was that a completely fabricated and spurious charge against Him?
The Law and the Prophets goes into great detail about a Messiah. Had the Mainstream Preacher of their time did as God instructed them through His Word, they would have known who He was, where He was born and would have been joined with the Wise Men to come pay him tribute.

Had they done as instructed they would have known Jesus as did Zechariahs, Simeon and Anna.

So Post. It wasn't obedience to God's Laws that made them want to Kill the Christ as you preach. It was the wholesale rejection of God's Words, and the creation of their own Law, their own god, their own righteousness, that led them to discredit and persecute, ridicule and even kill those who humbled themselves to God, even to the point of killing their own Messiah.

You can blame God and His Holy Sabbath or whatever Law you are railing against today, it's hard to keep up with you. But it wasn't because they listened to God's instructions that they killed their Messiah, it's because they rejected His instructions. As the Jesus of the Bible clearly defines.

Matt. 15:
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men (Not God as you falsely preach)
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
687
113
You're completely tip-toeing around his point.

According to Leviticus, the Jews had every right under the Law to put death someone they considered committing blasphemy. Paul was one of them. He was doing it ignorant of his actions. Which is why Jesus said, "it is hard to kick against the goads..."

And further more answering a question with.

First: John 14:28

Next: John 5:18

Because Paul said: Phil 2:6.

Isn't how you approach the Bible. You're pulling one verse out of different books/passages. You have to approach it through the entire passage. Not this hopping and around stuff. You say you want truth? Well this isn't correct Bible interpretation.

You read an entire book. And you let each context speak to you. I can make the Bible say some pretty wacky stuff if I just pulled out verses that say what I wanted.
2 John 1:9, “Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of the Messiah, does not have Yah. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.”



Mat 23:39, “For I say to you, from now on you shall by no means see Me, until you say, ‘Blessed is He who is coming in the Name of יהוה!”



Psalm 118:26-27, “Blessed is He who is coming in the Name of יהוה! We shall bless you from the House of יהוה. יהוה is Mighty, and He gave us light; Bind the Festival offering With cords to the horns of the Altar.”



Mat 21:9, "And the crowds who went before and those who followed cried out, saying, “Hoshia-na to the Son of Dawiḏ! Blessed is He who is coming in the Name of יהוה! Hoshia-na in the highest!”



John 14:28, “You have heard that I told you: I go away, but come again to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.”



John 5:43, “I have come in My Father's Name, but you do not follow Me. Let another come in his own name; him you will follow.”



John 7:16-17, "Yahshua answered, them, and said: My doctrine is not Mine, but His Who sent Me. If any man will do His will, he will know about this teaching, whether it comes from YHWH, or whether I am speaking of My own authority."



John 5:19-20, “Therefore יהושע responded and said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son is able to do none at all by Himself, but only that which He sees the Father doing, because whatever He does, the Son also likewise does. For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all that He Himself does. And greater works than these He is going to show Him, in order that you marvel.”
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
515
113
You're completely tip-toeing around his point.

According to Leviticus, the Jews had every right under the Law to put death someone they considered committing blasphemy. Paul was one of them. He was doing it ignorant of his actions. Which is why Jesus said, "it is hard to kick against the goads..."

And further more answering a question with.

First: John 14:28

Next: John 5:18

Because Paul said: Phil 2:6.

Isn't how you approach the Bible. You're pulling one verse out of different books/passages. You have to approach it through the entire passage. Not this hopping and around stuff. You say you want truth? Well this isn't correct Bible interpretation.

You read an entire book. And you let each context speak to you. I can make the Bible say some pretty wacky stuff if I just pulled out verses that say what I wanted.
Well I have seen that with my own eyes Cee. You are doing that very thing here. Because if you were to read the rest of the Law and Prophets, you would know that God spoke of a Messiah that would come as a man, equal to God, from the tribe of Judah, born in Bethlehem. Then you would be like Zechariahs, Simion, Anna and the Wise men who didn't "Teach for Doctrines the Commandments of men" but actually followed the instructions of God. But that wouldn't help promote your religious doctrine that the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by following God's Laws and that is why they killed Him..

So like the Mainstream Preachers of His time, you preach one part of His word, but "omit" the weightier matters of the Law which foretell the coming Messiah. Had you done this, you wouldn't blame God's Laws for the murder of the Christ.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
8,993
2,853
113
1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

I don't believe we can have Mercy without God's Love. When we reject His Love, we reject His Mercy. No Mercy, no Salvation.

No, you are getting the cart ahead of the horse.

The Horse is SALVATION - it must happen FIRST.

After the Horse of SALVATION - comes the CART of LOVE.

In a nut shell, AT SALVATION THE MOMENT WE BELIEVE - HE HAD THE HOLY SPIRIT PLANT HIS LOVE IN OUR HEARTS.

Romans 5:5 (ESV)
5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.


GOD's LOVE was planted in out Hearts which is SALVATION, (remember the Parable of the Sower), it WILL produce the same kind of AGAPE LOVE when it sprouts, just like everything else that GOD CREATED. So a LOVING OBEDIENCE is the FRUIT of GOD's LOVE being planted in our Hearts. So you do not get the credit for what GOD IS DOING IN YOUR HEART; however, it SHOULD PRODUCE AWE FOR WHAT GOD IS DOING IN YOUR LIFE.
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
1,386
53
48
No, you are getting the cart ahead of the horse.

The Horse is SALVATION - it must happen FIRST.

After the Horse of SALVATION - comes the CART of LOVE.

In a nut shell, AT SALVATION THE MOMENT WE BELIEVE - HE HAD THE HOLY SPIRIT PLANT HIS LOVE IN OUR HEARTS.

Romans 5:5 (ESV)
5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.


GOD's LOVE was planted in out Hearts which is SALVATION, (remember the Parable of the Sower), it WILL produce the same kind of AGAPE LOVE when it sprouts, just like everything else that GOD CREATED. So a LOVING OBEDIENCE is the FRUIT of GOD's LOVE being planted in our Hearts. So you do not get the credit for what GOD IS DOING IN YOUR HEART; however, it SHOULD PRODUCE AWE FOR WHAT GOD IS DOING IN YOUR LIFE.
19Go ye therefore, and TEACH ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER I HAVE COMMANDED YOU: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

OUR LORD JESUS BEFORE GOING BACK TO THE FATHER INSTRUCTED HIS DISCIPLES TO TEACH OBEDIENCE UNTO ALL NATIONS.

IF ANYONE WOULD TEACH THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WORD, TEACHINGS, LAWS AND COMMANDS, IS NOT NECESSARY OR PART OF SALVATION, DOES HE NOT TEACH CONTRARY TO THE LORD’S TEACHINGS?

WHEN THE LORD SAID THAT “IF YOU WANT TO ENTER LIFE, OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS”, AND SOMEONE ELSE WOULD SAY THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD WILL NOT SAVE ANYONE BECAUSE “FAITH ALONE SAVES”. IS IT NOT A CLEAR REJECTION, NULLIFICATION, DISRESPECT, DISOBEDIENCE, UNBELIEF AND MOCKERY OF GOD’S WORD?

15Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16They profess that they know God; BUT IN WORKS THEY DENY HIM, being ABOMINABLE, and DISOBEDIENT and unto every good work REPROBATE.

4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, TURNING THE GRACE OF OUR GOD INTO (A LICENSE FOR) LASCIVIOUSNESS, and DENYING the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

...Teaching for doctrines the commandments of men….Full well ye reject the commandment of God... making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.(mark 7:6-13)

...because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.(isaiah 5:20-24)

...Be not deceived; GÒD IS NOT MOCKED: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. 9And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. 10As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.(galatians 6:7-10)

32who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are WORTHY OF DEATH, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things COMETH THE WRATH OF .GOD ÙPON THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE

MAN GOT SEPARATED FROM GOD BECAUSE OF THE SIN OF DISOBEDIENCE WHEN MAN WAS DECEIVED BY THE SERPENT WHO SAID THAT “...Ye shall not surely die.”(genesis 3:4)

DÈCEIVERS OF THIS AGE SAYS THE SAME THING;

“YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE (PERIßH / BE CONDEMNED). ONCE YOU'RE SAVED, YOU ARE ALWAYS ßAVED. JUST HAVE FAITH VOID OF WORKS (OF RIGHTEOUSNESS / ÒBEDIENCE) AND YOU WILL POSSESS ETERNAL LIFE THE MOMENT YOU BELIEVE.


IS IT NOT APPOINTED FOR MEN TO DIE ONCE AND FACE JUDGMENT AFTER? (hebrews 9:27-28)

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw THE DEAD, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And WHOSOEVER WAS NOT FOÙND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE WAS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.

“FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD”

JESUS HAS NOT FOUND YOUR WORKS COMPLETE IN THE SIGHT OF GOD. REMEMBER THEREFORE WHÀT YOU HEARD AND RECEIVED. OBEY IT, AND REPENT.(revelations 3:1-6)


47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48HE THAT REJECTETH ME, and RECEIVETH NOT MY WORDS, hath one that judgeth him: THE WORD THAT I HAVE SPOKEN, THE SAME SHALL. JUDGE HIM IN THE LAST DAY. 49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50And I KNOW THAT HIS COMMANDMENT IS LIFE EVERLASTING: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
2 John 1:9, “Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of the Messiah, does not have Yah. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.”



Mat 23:39, “For I say to you, from now on you shall by no means see Me, until you say, ‘Blessed is He who is coming in the Name of יהוה!”



Psalm 118:26-27, “Blessed is He who is coming in the Name of יהוה! We shall bless you from the House of יהוה. יהוה is Mighty, and He gave us light; Bind the Festival offering With cords to the horns of the Altar.”



Mat 21:9, "And the crowds who went before and those who followed cried out, saying, “Hoshia-na to the Son of Dawiḏ! Blessed is He who is coming in the Name of יהוה! Hoshia-na in the highest!”



John 14:28, “You have heard that I told you: I go away, but come again to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.”



John 5:43, “I have come in My Father's Name, but you do not follow Me. Let another come in his own name; him you will follow.”



John 7:16-17, "Yahshua answered, them, and said: My doctrine is not Mine, but His Who sent Me. If any man will do His will, he will know about this teaching, whether it comes from YHWH, or whether I am speaking of My own authority."



John 5:19-20, “Therefore יהושע responded and said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son is able to do none at all by Himself, but only that which He sees the Father doing, because whatever He does, the Son also likewise does. For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all that He Himself does. And greater works than these He is going to show Him, in order that you marvel.”
Romans 6:14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Romans 7:4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

Colossians 2:17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

Hebrews 10:1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near.

Galatians 4:4-5 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Romans 3:21-26 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

John 1:17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Philippians 3:9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

Galatians 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"--

Galatians 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

Ephesians 2:14-15 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,

Colossians 2:13-14 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Corinthians 3:3 being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

Galatians 3:21-22 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Hebrews 7:19 (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

Romans 7:4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
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Well I have seen that with my own eyes Cee. You are doing that very thing here. Because if you were to read the rest of the Law and Prophets, you would know that God spoke of a Messiah that would come as a man, equal to God, from the tribe of Judah, born in Bethlehem. Then you would be like Zechariahs, Simion, Anna and the Wise men who didn't "Teach for Doctrines the Commandments of men" but actually followed the instructions of God. But that wouldn't help promote your religious doctrine that the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by following God's Laws and that is why they killed Him..

So like the Mainstream Preachers of His time, you preach one part of His word, but "omit" the weightier matters of the Law which foretell the coming Messiah. Had you done this, you wouldn't blame God's Laws for the murder of the Christ.
Uh, what?

Obviously it was in the OT. But they didn't realize it. They thought Jesus was going to make Himself a King.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
7,068
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Well I have seen that with my own eyes Cee. You are doing that very thing here. Because if you were to read the rest of the Law and Prophets, you would know that God spoke of a Messiah that would come as a man, equal to God, from the tribe of Judah, born in Bethlehem. Then you would be like Zechariahs, Simion, Anna and the Wise men who didn't "Teach for Doctrines the Commandments of men" but actually followed the instructions of God. But that wouldn't help promote your religious doctrine that the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by following God's Laws and that is why they killed Him..

So like the Mainstream Preachers of His time, you preach one part of His word, but "omit" the weightier matters of the Law which foretell the coming Messiah. Had you done this, you wouldn't blame God's Laws for the murder of the Christ.
once again, you have been shown a clear Scripture reference as to the charge the jews used to convict Christ, but, in order to defend your religion, you reject it . you and shamah both. so, please stop accusing us of following the commandments of men when you will not even recognize the part of the Mosaic Law that they used, only because it does not fit in your religion.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
24,894
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The Law and the Prophets goes into great detail about a Messiah. Had the Mainstream Preacher of their time did as God instructed them through His Word, they would have known who He was, where He was born and would have been joined with the Wise Men to come pay him tribute.

Had they done as instructed they would have known Jesus as did Zechariahs, Simeon and Anna.

So Post. It wasn't obedience to God's Laws that made them want to Kill the Christ as you preach. It was the wholesale rejection of God's Words, and the creation of their own Law, their own god, their own righteousness, that led them to discredit and persecute, ridicule and even kill those who humbled themselves to God, even to the point of killing their own Messiah.

You can blame God and His Holy Sabbath or whatever Law you are railing against today, it's hard to keep up with you. But it wasn't because they listened to God's instructions that they killed their Messiah, it's because they rejected His instructions. As the Jesus of the Bible clearly defines.

Matt. 15:
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men (Not God as you falsely preach)
that's not an answer.

was Christ crucified for eating with unwashed hands or for claiming to be equivalent to God?

why is this hard for you to face?
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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No, you are getting the cart ahead of the horse.

The Horse is SALVATION - it must happen FIRST.

After the Horse of SALVATION - comes the CART of LOVE.

In a nut shell, AT SALVATION THE MOMENT WE BELIEVE - HE HAD THE HOLY SPIRIT PLANT HIS LOVE IN OUR HEARTS.

Romans 5:5 (ESV)
5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.


GOD's LOVE was planted in out Hearts which is SALVATION, (remember the Parable of the Sower), it WILL produce the same kind of AGAPE LOVE when it sprouts, just like everything else that GOD CREATED. So a LOVING OBEDIENCE is the FRUIT of GOD's LOVE being planted in our Hearts. So you do not get the credit for what GOD IS DOING IN YOUR HEART; however, it SHOULD PRODUCE AWE FOR WHAT GOD IS DOING IN YOUR LIFE.
Yes, God's Love has been poured into some men's hearts through the Holy Spirit.

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

As He said. "I will put MY Laws in their inward parts."

At some point those who are truly His will exhibit obedience to His Commandments, not man's religious traditions. You can say a man doesn't have to humble himself to the Word which became Flesh first. You can say we don't repent, Jesus repents for us. You can say we are just randomly picked for Grace because we have no part in our own Salvation. We can argue those doctrines.

But one thing that in not debatable is the fruit of the Spirit is obedience to the God, not disobedience to God.

So whether the chicken came first or the egg came first, they both produce the same thing. a Chicken.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
515
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Uh, what?

Obviously it was in the OT. But they didn't realize it. They thought Jesus was going to make Himself a King.
Why don't you think for just a second and consider "WHO" the "they" were Cee?

Matt. 15:
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Matt. 23:4 For they ( The Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time, not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Acts 7:
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Rom. 1:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

John 8:
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it


2 Thess. 2:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Not all, who called themselves the Children of God, rejected God's Word's. Zechariahs, Anna, the Wise Men, Simion, there were more. These didn't reject God's instructions and create their own. These didn't "Transgress the Commandments of God" by their own religious Traditions. These didn't "teach for Doctrines the Commandments of Men".

And as Jesus promised in John 14. He manifest Himself to them just like He did to Abraham and Noah, Elijah and Every other example of Faith in the entire Bible.

How is this not true.