Not By Works

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mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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THE POINT IS THAT OUR LORD JESUS INSTRUCTED HIS APOSTLES AND DISCIPLES TO PREACH THE GOSPEL UNTO ALL NATIONS, TO BAPTIZE THEM AND TO TEACH THEM OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS.
Yes, go and make disciples of all nations, which is done by preaching the gospel unto all nations, then baptize converts, and teach them to observe all that Jesus has commanded you (Matthew 28:18-20).

DID JAMES FOLLOW THE LORD'S INSTRUCTIONS OF TEACHING OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS WHEN HE SAID THAT IT IS "NOT BY FAITH ALONE"? THAT "FAITH AND ACTIONS" ARE WORKING TOGETHER?
What James meant by "not by faith alone" was not by an "empty profession of faith" that remains ALONE -- "barren of works" (James 2:14). Faith and actions do not work together in order to save the believer. WE ARE NOT SAVED BY WORKS. WORKS SALVATION IS NO SALVATION AT ALL. Once again, faith and actions working together/faith made "perfect" or "complete" by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. *See Romans 4:2-3.

DID PAUL FOLLOW THE LORD'S INSTRUCTIONS WHEN HE SAID THAT WHAT IS IMPORTANT IS "FAITH THAT WORKS IN LOVE"? THAT IF YOU HAVE FAITH BUT HAVE NO LOVE, YOU ARE NOTHING? THAT LOVE IS "OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS"? WHEN HE ASKED
Faith does work through love (Galatians 5:6) and the love of God has been poured out within our (believers) hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5) and love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God (1 John 4:7). We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). Paul did stress the importance of love in 1 Corinthians 13 and was not teaching that we are saved through faith "plus love." Without faith it's impossible to please God or be saved no matter how much love that you attempt to conjure up. Between faith, hope and love, love is the greater quality of the three because God is love and it outlasts them all. Long after faith and hope are no longer necessary, love will still be the governing principle that controls all that God and his redeemed people are and do.

31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
What did Paul establish from the law back in verse 21? Righteousness based in faith, apart from the legalities of the law. Legalists refuse to examine the context. They will look for any proof text they can find to justify their claim we are supposed to keep the conditions of a covenant law that we are not a party to, and that covenant law that even they do not keep or are obedient to. We establish, that Christ fulfilled the law. We establish, the law and it’s righteous requirements are fulfilled in us through Christ. We establish, that Christ is the fulfillment of the types and shadows and signs.

...THAT GOD’S WRATH COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT?
The "disobedient" is descriptive of UNBELIEVERS, who are described as "sons of disobedience" in CONTRAST to BELIEVERS, who have been made alive with Christ, are no longer sons of disobedience, but have been saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:1-8).

CAN YOU SAY WITH A CLEAR CONSCIENCE THAT YOU AND DCON ARE TEACHING THE SAME THINGS BY SAYING THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD IS NOT A PART OF SALVATION BECAUSE “FAITH ALONE” SAVES AND “ONCE SAVED YOU ARE ALWAYS SAVED”
I can absolutely say with a clear conscience that we are not saved by works (obedience which "follows having been saved through faith" is works and we are not saved by works - Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). I can also with a clear conscience say that man is saved through faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE (Romans 3:22-28). *Not to be confused with an "empty profession of faith/dead faith" that remains ALONE - "barren of works" (James 2:14). I can also with a clear conscience say that once a man is genuinely saved/born again, he will remain saved and is preserved forever (Psalms 37:28; Jude 1:1; John 6:39; 10:27-29; Romans 8:30; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30 etc..).

AS TO THE IMAGE YOU AND YOUR GROUP IS TRYING TO PORTRAY AS ALL-KNOWING PREACHERS OF THE TRUTH, ARE YOUR INTERPRETATIONS MORE ACCURATE AND TRUSTWORTHY THAN GOD’S WORDS WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE?
You sound like an angry know it all. Your longwinded posts full of scripture twisting and rhetoric are not convincing. Interpretations are only accurate and trustworthy if they line up with God's words written in the Bible.

ARE ALL THE APOSTLES LEARNED PERSONS OR SCHOLARS THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE THEIR OWN INTERPRETATION OF WHAT THEY HAVE HEARD AND RECEIVED BEFORE WRITING THEM FOR OUR SAKE?
You should ask yourself that question.

26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus,who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”

3 What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify God’s faithfulness? 4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written:

“So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge.”
Amen! 1 Corinthians 1:18 - For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

IF YOU WERE STANDING AT THE GATES OF HEAVEN RIGHT NOW AND JESUS CHRIST ASKED YOU WHY HE SHOULD LET YOU INTO HEAVEN, WHAT WOULD BE YOUR EXACT ANSWER? :unsure:
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
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="posthuman, post: 3693251, member: 170505"]and she, too -- God had not said ((per the text)) that they were forbidden to touch the tree. but she added 'and you must not touch it' when she recounted what He had commanded. [/QUOTE]

this is eisegesis.
sin & death had not entered the world; there was nothing to be '
saved' from. nothing to 'repent' of.
it's as though you're trying to cram your mainstream-religious-human works-based view of eternal life as wages to be earned, rather than a gift, into the text. but it doesn't fit.


what Satan did was tell her God had lied to them, that He threatened death when there was none.
isn't what you tell us is that God has lied to us also?
because God says, the just shall live by faith. God says to us that believing, you shall have life, and though the one who believes may die, they will live forever ((John 11:25 e.g.)) - but you say, the just shall live by their works, and those who believe will die if their works don't measure up, their faith notwithstanding.
is that not so? if it's not, then speak plainly how you believe eternal life is achieved.
[/QUOTE]


You say "sin & death had not entered the world". Yet God told Adam:

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die

We have both the commandment, and the wages, death, of transgressing it, which is sin.

So you have been exposed again.

You also preach:

"because God says, the just shall live by faith. God says to us that believing, you shall have life, and though the one who believes may die, they will live forever"

So how did Eve show her "FAITH" in God Post? By listening to every other voice EXCEPT God's? She believed in God, the serpent believed in God, and Abraham believed in God.

So which one was blessed by God, which one had faith?

The Messiah of the Bible showed me and told me how to enter life, both as a man, and as the Word of God.

Duet. 30:
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Matt. 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

You know them, you have just been convinced by voices other than God's, that following them will place you in prison, and make you blind, and take away the immortality you have been convinced you already have.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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515
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I repeat, whether we transgress the law, or rebel against the law, rebellion is stronger than simple transgression, nobody here is trying to change God's law of love that runs through the whole Bible.

(Except maybe those who wish to override God's law of love by superimposing the law of Moses.)
I'm not aware of anyone promoting the "works" of the atonement Laws God gave Moses until the Seed should come.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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515
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He did not use God's word to deceive....HE EMBELLISHED God's word to deceive.....and ADAM was not deceived..........and your analogy falls way short of biblical and embellishes what was actually said....you added to the narrative your own view to support your own conclusions.....!
LOL, OK Decon, "use" VS. Embellish, I guess it depends on what your definition of "it" is.

The first man didn't listed to the serpent, he trusted his "wife, Woman, Bride, church", that the serpent deceived. The same "woman" also tried to persuade the second man and actually did influence some of His Apostles.

I think you are missing the whole point.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
515
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false.

Adam was not deceived; 1 Timothy 2:14
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Gen. 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

The serpent went after the "woman, bride, wife, church" that Adam trusted. Adam wasn't tricked by the serpent. He was tricked by His Wife, Woman, Bride, Church".

You miss the whole point because you have been convinced obedience to God causes blindness, when the opposite is true.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
26,369
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11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Gen. 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

The serpent went after the "woman, bride, wife, church" that Adam trusted. Adam wasn't tricked by the serpent. He was tricked by His Wife, Woman, Bride, Church".

You miss the whole point because you have been convinced obedience to God causes blindness, when the opposite is true.
not deceived is not deceived.

you should probablys stop trying to twist the Bible into fitting your mainstream human religious tradition and private interpretation when it is contradicted by clear scripture.
nasty habit.

I believe proverbs says something about a person who hates correction, perhaps you have studied it?
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
7,400
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A
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Gen. 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

The serpent went after the "woman, bride, wife, church" that Adam trusted. Adam wasn't tricked by the serpent. He was tricked by His Wife, Woman, Bride, Church".

You miss the whole point because you have been convinced obedience to God causes blindness, when the opposite is true.
well , why don't you obey? God the Father said to hear the Son. that means the Words in Red.

but, you insist, with the wicked lie of oneness , on hearing what The Father told Moses at Sinai, which, as I have shown you many times, the Father said to hear the Son.

the Son said " all authority has been given to Me " you refuse to recognize this.

the Son said He had the authority to forgive sins. , but , according to your junk, the Son could not have forgiven the thief on the cross next to Him on the spot.

ahh, but, if you , the mighty studyman were to accept the truth that Jesus did forgive the man then and there ,then you would have acknowledge that the thief could not have done any good works, kept the law or the Sabbath , that he was forgiven just for having Faith , and acknowledging that Christ is Lord, then your whole religion would collapse.

so, I get it. you have a system. you like your system. you do not want truth and facts to get in the way of it. just like your buddies the Pharisees did not want Jesus messing up their system.
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
1,386
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Yes, go and make disciples of all nations, which is done by preaching the gospel unto all nations, then baptize converts, and teach them to observe all that Jesus has commanded you (Matthew 28:18-20).

What James meant by "not by faith alone" was not by an "empty profession of faith" that remains ALONE -- "barren of works" (James 2:14). Faith and actions do not work together in order to save the believer. WE ARE NOT SAVED BY WORKS. WORKS SALVATION IS NO SALVATION AT ALL. Once again, faith and actions working together/faith made "perfect" or "complete" by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. *See Romans 4:2-3.

Faith does work through love (Galatians 5:6) and the love of God has been poured out within our (believers) hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5) and love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God (1 John 4:7). We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). Paul did stress the importance of love in 1 Corinthians 13 and was not teaching that we are saved through faith "plus love." Without faith it's impossible to please God or be saved no matter how much love that you attempt to conjure up. Between faith, hope and love, love is the greater quality of the three because God is love and it outlasts them all. Long after faith and hope are no longer necessary, love will still be the governing principle that controls all that God and his redeemed people are and do.

What did Paul establish from the law back in verse 21? Righteousness based in faith, apart from the legalities of the law. Legalists refuse to examine the context. They will look for any proof text they can find to justify their claim we are supposed to keep the conditions of a covenant law that we are not a party to, and that covenant law that even they do not keep or are obedient to. We establish, that Christ fulfilled the law. We establish, the law and it’s righteous requirements are fulfilled in us through Christ. We establish, that Christ is the fulfillment of the types and shadows and signs.

The "disobedient" is descriptive of UNBELIEVERS, who are described as "sons of disobedience" in CONTRAST to BELIEVERS, who have been made alive with Christ, are no longer sons of disobedience, but have been saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:1-8).

I can absolutely say with a clear conscience that we are not saved by works (obedience which "follows having been saved through faith" is works and we are not saved by works - Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). I can also with a clear conscience say that man is saved through faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE (Romans 3:22-28). *Not to be confused with an "empty profession of faith/dead faith" that remains ALONE - "barren of works" (James 2:14). I can also with a clear conscience say that once a man is genuinely saved/born again, he will remain saved and is preserved forever (Psalms 37:28; Jude 1:1; John 6:39; 10:27-29; Romans 8:30; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30 etc..).

You sound like an angry know it all. Your longwinded posts full of scripture twisting and rhetoric are not convincing. Interpretations are only accurate and trustworthy if they line up with God's words written in the Bible.

You should ask yourself that question.

Amen! 1 Corinthians 1:18 - For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

IF YOU WERE STANDING AT THE GATES OF HEAVEN RIGHT NOW AND JESUS CHRIST ASKED YOU WHY HE SHOULD LET YOU INTO HEAVEN, WHAT WOULD BE YOUR EXACT ANSWER? :unsure:
TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION FIRST;

The Conclusion of the Matter

13 Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the duty of all mankind.
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil.


SO GOD WILL JUDGE ME FOR WHAT I HAVE DONE BEFORE THE DAY OF JUDGMENT AND NOT FOR WHATEVER I WOULD SAY TO DEFEND WHAT I DID, THINK OR SAY IN MY LIFETIME, ON THAT GREAT DAY.


NOW, REGARDING YOUR REPLY.

YOU JUST CONFIRMED THAT YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD IS PART OF SALVATION OR AS YOU SAID THAT IT IS A WORK AND WORKS CANNOT SAVE.

DO YOU OBEY THE GOSPEL?

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel,because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

DOES THE GOSPEL TEACH OBEDIENCE TO GOD?

IS IT THEREFORE A PART OF THE SALVATION PROCESS?

OBEDIENCE LEADS TO RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT LEADS TO HOLINESS AND THE RESULT IS ETERNAL LIFE. (romans 6:16-23)

hebrews 5
7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation FOR ALL WHO OBEY HIM 10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

john 12
47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn themat the last day. 49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”

THE WRATH OF GOD COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT. (ephesians 5:6)
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
992
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Another good devotional this morning. All the work of salvation has been done by Jesus Christ.
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
1,675
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Another good devotional this morning. All the work of salvation has been done by Jesus Christ.
s...,
.....of salvation?...or.......for salvation?
A big difference.
Concern is for the newbie to understand.
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
69,948
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So if Adam was NOT deceived, then why didn't he refuse to eat of the tree? Why didn't he say "No Eve, I think we should listen to God instead of this serpent"??
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
19,674
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TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION FIRST;

The Conclusion of the Matter

13 Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the duty of all mankind.
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil.


SO GOD WILL JUDGE ME FOR WHAT I HAVE DONE BEFORE THE DAY OF JUDGMENT AND NOT FOR WHATEVER I WOULD SAY TO DEFEND WHAT I DID, THINK OR SAY IN MY LIFETIME, ON THAT GREAT DAY.
So you believe that God will judge you and grant you eternal life based on the merits of your best efforts to keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments? I noticed that you mentioned nothing about Christ's finished work of redemption or faith in Christ. :unsure: That would be the central focus for my answer.

NOW, REGARDING YOUR REPLY.
YOU JUST CONFIRMED THAT YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD IS PART OF SALVATION OR AS YOU SAID THAT IT IS A WORK AND WORKS CANNOT SAVE.
Multiple acts of obedience which are produced "out of" faith are WORKS and we are saved through faith, NOT WORKS. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

DO YOU OBEY THE GOSPEL?
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel,because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
I have obeyed the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. In Romans 10:16, we read: But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" So we can clearly see that we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16). Refusing to obey the gospel (2 Thessalonians 1:8) is refusing to believe the gospel. The righteous have been saved through faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8) and the righteous (those already saved) live by faith (Romans 1:17). Nothing there about salvation by works.

*The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). We obey the gospel by choosing to believe/trust in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. Which sadly, you clearly demonstrated by the answer to my question that you are instead TRUSTING IN WORKS for salvation. :(

DOES THE GOSPEL TEACH OBEDIENCE TO GOD?
IS IT THEREFORE A PART OF THE SALVATION PROCESS?
The gospel teaches us about the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel (Ephesians 3:6) but nothing about salvation by works.

OBEDIENCE LEADS TO RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT LEADS TO HOLINESS AND THE RESULT IS ETERNAL LIFE. (romans 6:16-23)

Works-salvationists typically ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" in Romans 6:16 and simply stresses "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience which follow saving faith in Christ are unto righteousness, as if we are saved by works. Unbelievers are not slaves of obedience unto righteousness no matter how much so called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to save themselves by works.

There is a contrast here between servants/slaves. There are only two kinds of servants/slaves in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants/slaves of sin unto death, or servants/slaves of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation, we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness."

*Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness. (y)

hebrews 5
7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation FOR ALL WHO OBEY HIM 10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
So in Hebrews 5:9, who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I've heard many works salvationists use this verse to try and support salvation by works, including Roman Catholics, Mormons, Campbellites etc..

*Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping (guarding, observing, watching over) His commandments and practicing righteousness and not sin (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). *In either sense, only believers obey Him.

Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation by works. *So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

john 12
47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn themat the last day. 49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”
Your command (salvation by works) or His command leads to eternal life?

*John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. :)

THE WRATH OF GOD COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT. (ephesians 5:6)
Which is descriptive of UNBELIEVERS.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,430
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So if Adam was NOT deceived, then why didn't he refuse to eat of the tree? Why didn't he say "No Eve, I think we should listen to God instead of this serpent"??
Adam was not decived. He knew what he was doing.

Genesis 2:15-17 (NLT Study Bible Text,)
The First Command
15 The Lord God placed the man in the Garden of Eden to tend and watch over it. 16 But the Lord God warned him, “You may freely eat the fruit of every tree in the garden—17 except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat its fruit, you are sure to die.”

The first command given to Adam (there may have been others but not sure on that)

This command was given before Eve was created as we find in v18 - 22

Genesis 2:18-22 (NLT Study Bible Text,)
Creation of the Woman
18 Then the Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper who is just right for him.”19 So the Lord God formed from the ground all the wild animals and all the birds of the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would call them, and the man chose a name for each one. 20 He gave names to all the livestock, all the birds of the sky, and all the wild animals. But still there was no helper just right for him.
21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep. While the man slept, the Lord God took out one of the man’s ribs and closed up the opening. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib, and he brought her to the man.

So God did not (no writing suggests otherwise) tell Eve to not from the tree.

So Adam did not tell her, or if he did he didn't explain it correctly.

So Adam knew full well what he was doing. His eyes were wide open to this command. He has no excuse.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
9,583
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Yes, go and make disciples of all nations, which is done by preaching the gospel unto all nations, then baptize converts, and teach them to observe all that Jesus has commanded you (Matthew 28:18-20).

What James meant by "not by faith alone" was not by an "empty profession of faith" that remains ALONE -- "barren of works" (James 2:14). Faith and actions do not work together in order to save the believer. WE ARE NOT SAVED BY WORKS. WORKS SALVATION IS NO SALVATION AT ALL. Once again, faith and actions working together/faith made "perfect" or "complete" by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. *See Romans 4:2-3.

Faith does work through love (Galatians 5:6) and the love of God has been poured out within our (believers) hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5) and love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God (1 John 4:7). We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). Paul did stress the importance of love in 1 Corinthians 13 and was not teaching that we are saved through faith "plus love." Without faith it's impossible to please God or be saved no matter how much love that you attempt to conjure up. Between faith, hope and love, love is the greater quality of the three because God is love and it outlasts them all. Long after faith and hope are no longer necessary, love will still be the governing principle that controls all that God and his redeemed people are and do.

What did Paul establish from the law back in verse 21? Righteousness based in faith, apart from the legalities of the law. Legalists refuse to examine the context. They will look for any proof text they can find to justify their claim we are supposed to keep the conditions of a covenant law that we are not a party to, and that covenant law that even they do not keep or are obedient to. We establish, that Christ fulfilled the law. We establish, the law and it’s righteous requirements are fulfilled in us through Christ. We establish, that Christ is the fulfillment of the types and shadows and signs.

The "disobedient" is descriptive of UNBELIEVERS, who are described as "sons of disobedience" in CONTRAST to BELIEVERS, who have been made alive with Christ, are no longer sons of disobedience, but have been saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:1-8).

I can absolutely say with a clear conscience that we are not saved by works (obedience which "follows having been saved through faith" is works and we are not saved by works - Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). I can also with a clear conscience say that man is saved through faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE (Romans 3:22-28). *Not to be confused with an "empty profession of faith/dead faith" that remains ALONE - "barren of works" (James 2:14). I can also with a clear conscience say that once a man is genuinely saved/born again, he will remain saved and is preserved forever (Psalms 37:28; Jude 1:1; John 6:39; 10:27-29; Romans 8:30; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30 etc..).


You sound like an angry know it all. Your long winded posts full of scripture twisting and rhetoric are not convincing. Interpretations are only accurate and trustworthy if they line up with God's words written in the Bible.

You should ask yourself that question.

Amen! 1 Corinthians 1:18 - For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

IF YOU WERE STANDING AT THE GATES OF HEAVEN RIGHT NOW AND JESUS CHRIST ASKED YOU WHY HE SHOULD LET YOU INTO HEAVEN, WHAT WOULD BE YOUR EXACT ANSWER? :unsure:



I am GLAD you had the patients to answer that LONG WINDED Post. I would have gave up, even though they will think they are wiser, and falsely think they have won the debate. I am sure that is why they do not ask one Question at a time, then Post it. Instead typical of FALSE TEACHERS, they will use many questions at a time, and then they gloat, puffing themselves up with PRIDE, and FALSELY think they won the Debate.

I wonder how they get around this VERSE:

Romans 11:6 (HCSB)
6 Now if by grace, then it is not by works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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It's sad when obedience is shunned by classifying it as "justified by works". It seems like an excuse to "have Jesus" while ignoring what He says to do...

What about the large number of verses that call for obedience, repentance from sin, living a clean life, not being sinful, walking the narrow path, etc?

John 8:51 “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone guards My Word he shall never see death at all.”

John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Yah remains on him.”

I feel like im in a "Jesus not allowed in my doctrine zone" when I read peoples condemnation of obedience as bad, it would seem the only way to make God angry is to want to do and do what He says...
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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It's sad when obedience is shunned by classifying it as "justified by works". It seems like an excuse to "have Jesus" while ignoring what He says to do...

What about the large number of verses that call for obedience, repentance from sin, living a clean life, not being sinful, walking the narrow path, etc?

John 8:51 “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone guards My Word he shall never see death at all.”

John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Yah remains on him.”

I feel like im in a "Jesus not allowed in my doctrine zone" when I read peoples condemnation of obedience as bad, it would seem the only way to make God angry is to want to do and do what He says...
Typical straw man argument. There is a difference between authentic obedience to God and seeking justification by works.