Not By Works

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Shamah

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Jan 6, 2018
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Typical straw man argument. There is a difference between authentic obedience to God and seeking justification by works.
No its not a strawman, anyone that promotes obedience here gets called names and said they preach "justified by works"

I have had these said to me a number of times yet I have not once said "obedience is what gets people into the kingdom"

It when I post verses like this I get accused:

Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of יהוה and the Belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”

John 14:23-24, “יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”

John/Yahanan 5:28-30, “Do not be astonished at this-for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and will come forth. Those who have practiced righteousness will be resurrected in order to live; and those who have practiced wickedness will be resurrected in order to be damned."

Mat 16:27, “For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His malakim; and then He will reward every man according to his works.”

Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”

John 8:24, “Therefore I said to you that you shall die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.”

Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”


SO then, please explain a few of the verses here that deal with obedience...
 

Shamah

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Jan 6, 2018
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The core foundational doctrine taught by the Messiah is that we do as He taught:

Matthew 28:19-20, “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

John 13:15, “For I (Yahshua/Jesus) gave you an example, that you should do as I have done to you.”

1 Peter 2:21, “This is, in fact, what you were called to do, because Messiah also suffered for you and left an example for you to follow in His steps.”

1 John 1:26, “The one who says that he abides in him must live the same way he (Yahsua/Jesus) himself lived.”

John 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day.”

John/Yahanan 15:5-16, "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, if you do whatever I command you."

anyone can come up with any reason they want why it's not vital or important to do as He says, yet the Messiah and His disciples say to do as He says...
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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It's sad when obedience is shunned by classifying it as "justified by works". It seems like an excuse to "have Jesus" while ignoring what He says to do...

What about the large number of verses that call for obedience, repentance from sin, living a clean life, not being sinful, walking the narrow path, etc?

John 8:51 “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone guards My Word he shall never see death at all.”

John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Yah remains on him.”

I feel like im in a "Jesus not allowed in my doctrine zone" when I read peoples condemnation of obedience as bad, it would seem the only way to make God angry is to want to do and do what He says...
Who here shuns obedience or works and uses it as an excuse to "have Jesus" and ignore him and live like they want?

Who here says obedience is bad?

So what are people saying concerning works?

We are not saved by works, we are not declared righteous by works and we will never ever be so.

So to think so that is what is wrong.
Can we honestly stand before God and say to him "I'm saved by the works that I did?
Will God accept that?
When Jesus was hanging on the cross and all our sins were being laid upon him what was the purpose?

Was it to save us by our works, by sinning less, loving more and so on?

No it was to reconcile us to the Father through genuine faith in Jesus.
There is no other way to be saved.
If there was then Jesus would have said so.
He would have said "Ok boys I've shown you how it should be done, work hard to pay off the debt you owe me, carry on I'm now going back to heaven, if you do it then you will be saved"

As Paul says

Romans 3:28 - 4:4
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
Abraham Justified by Faith
(Gen. 17:10)
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

As James says

James 2:20-24
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Abraham believed and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Therefore his genuine faith resulted in works/obedience.
Why was Abraham a friend of God? Because he believed in God and his works proved it.

Romans 4:5-8

David Celebrates the Same Truth
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

For Paul, “justification by works” (which he rejects) means “gaining right standing with God by the merit of works.” For James, “justification by works” (which he accepts) means “maintaining a right standing with God by faith along with the necessary evidence of faith, namely, the works of love.”

… When Paul teaches in Romans 4:5 that we are justified by faith alone, he means that the only thing that unites us to Christ for righteousness is dependence on Christ. When James says in James 2:24 that we are not justified by faith alone he means that the faith which justifies does not remain alone.

These two positions are not contradictory. Faith alone unites us to Christ for righteousness, and the faith that unites us to Christ for righteousness does not remain alone. It bears the fruit of love. It must do so or it is dead, demon, useless faith and does not justify. (The last 3 paragraphs are not my words, something I have in my library)
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Who here shuns obedience or works and uses it as an excuse to "have Jesus" and ignore him and live like they want?

Who here says obedience is bad?

So what are people saying concerning works?

We are not saved by works, we are not declared righteous by works and we will never ever be so.

So to think so that is what is wrong.
Can we honestly stand before God and say to him "I'm saved by the works that I did?
Will God accept that?
When Jesus was hanging on the cross and all our sins were being laid upon him what was the purpose?

Was it to save us by our works, by sinning less, loving more and so on?

No it was to reconcile us to the Father through genuine faith in Jesus.
There is no other way to be saved.
If there was then Jesus would have said so.
He would have said "Ok boys I've shown you how it should be done, work hard to pay off the debt you owe me, carry on I'm now going back to heaven, if you do it then you will be saved"

As Paul says

Romans 3:28 - 4:4
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
Abraham Justified by Faith
(Gen. 17:10)
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

As James says

James 2:20-24
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Abraham believed and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Therefore his genuine faith resulted in works/obedience.
Why was Abraham a friend of God? Because he believed in God and his works proved it.

Romans 4:5-8

David Celebrates the Same Truth
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

For Paul, “justification by works” (which he rejects) means “gaining right standing with God by the merit of works.” For James, “justification by works” (which he accepts) means “maintaining a right standing with God by faith along with the necessary evidence of faith, namely, the works of love.”

… When Paul teaches in Romans 4:5 that we are justified by faith alone, he means that the only thing that unites us to Christ for righteousness is dependence on Christ. When James says in James 2:24 that we are not justified by faith alone he means that the faith which justifies does not remain alone.

These two positions are not contradictory. Faith alone unites us to Christ for righteousness, and the faith that unites us to Christ for righteousness does not remain alone. It bears the fruit of love. It must do so or it is dead, demon, useless faith and does not justify. (The last 3 paragraphs are not my words, something I have in my library)
See bold...what works proves out salvation? How many works proves our salvation? Do good works prove our salvation before God?
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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Who here shuns obedience or works and uses it as an excuse to "have Jesus" and ignore him and live like they want?

Who here says obedience is bad?

So what are people saying concerning works?

We are not saved by works, we are not declared righteous by works and we will never ever be so.

So to think so that is what is wrong.
Can we honestly stand before God and say to him "I'm saved by the works that I did?
Will God accept that?
When Jesus was hanging on the cross and all our sins were being laid upon him what was the purpose?

Was it to save us by our works, by sinning less, loving more and so on?

No it was to reconcile us to the Father through genuine faith in Jesus.
There is no other way to be saved.
If there was then Jesus would have said so.
He would have said "Ok boys I've shown you how it should be done, work hard to pay off the debt you owe me, carry on I'm now going back to heaven, if you do it then you will be saved"

As Paul says

Romans 3:28 - 4:4
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
Abraham Justified by Faith
(Gen. 17:10)
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

As James says

James 2:20-24
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Abraham believed and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Therefore his genuine faith resulted in works/obedience.
Why was Abraham a friend of God? Because he believed in God and his works proved it.

Romans 4:5-8

David Celebrates the Same Truth
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

For Paul, “justification by works” (which he rejects) means “gaining right standing with God by the merit of works.” For James, “justification by works” (which he accepts) means “maintaining a right standing with God by faith along with the necessary evidence of faith, namely, the works of love.”

… When Paul teaches in Romans 4:5 that we are justified by faith alone, he means that the only thing that unites us to Christ for righteousness is dependence on Christ. When James says in James 2:24 that we are not justified by faith alone he means that the faith which justifies does not remain alone.

These two positions are not contradictory. Faith alone unites us to Christ for righteousness, and the faith that unites us to Christ for righteousness does not remain alone. It bears the fruit of love. It must do so or it is dead, demon, useless faith and does not justify. (The last 3 paragraphs are not my words, something I have in my library)
So Im sure you have seen me being called "pharisee, pharisee lawyer, justified by works etc".. Yet never have I said works get people into the kingdom. Why such a diagreement with those that preach obedence is right? I have seen others that main focus here is promoting obedience to Yah by showing it in Scriptures and the are spoken bad of.

Without accusing me, as all I am about to do is quote 2 passages, can you tell me how this fits into your doctrine and/or truth?

1 John 3:7, "Little children, let no man deceive you; he who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous."

John 5:28-30, “Do not be astonished at this-for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and will come forth. Those who have practiced righteousness will be resurrected in order to live; and those who have practiced wickedness will be resurrected in order to be damned.”

I am simply asking a question about 2 passages, I did not make these up, they are Scripture. Yet if I said these with my own mouth I would be criticized...

Can you explain the meaning of these 2 passages to me?
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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See bold...what works proves out salvation? How many works proves our salvation? Do good works prove our salvation before God?
Well James says workless faith can't save:

James 2:14, “My brothers, what use is it for anyone to say he has belief but does not have works? This belief is unable to save him.”

So all the excuse that it is about "proving before men" and that being the only application here is false.

Cant save means cant save...
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Well James says workless faith can't save:

James 2:14, “My brothers, what use is it for anyone to say he has belief but does not have works? This belief is unable to save him.”

So all the excuse that it is about "proving before men" and that being the only application here is false.

Cant save means cant save...
James is not writing to the body of Christ but the twelve tribes scattered abroad. These "twelve tribes scattered abroad" are not the Jewish believers who were scattered in Acts 8. It is future writing to the nation of Israel after the church is caught up.

Applying James to the body of Christ will not and has never worked. One must use tricky reasoning of application, not taking James literally, to make it applicable to the body of Christ.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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James is not writing to the body of Christ but the twelve tribes scattered abroad. These "twelve tribes scattered abroad" are not the Jewish believers who were scattered in Acts 8. It is future writing to the nation of Israel after the church is caught up.

Applying James to the body of Christ will not and has never worked. One must use tricky reasoning of application, not taking James literally, to make it applicable to the body of Christ.
ok, so you ignore this, do you accept Paul's writings?

Romans 2:12, “For as many as have sinned without the Law, will also perish without the Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law, will be judged by the Law.”

Gal 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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No its not a strawman, anyone that promotes obedience here gets called names and said they preach "justified by works"

I have had these said to me a number of times yet I have not once said "obedience is what gets people into the kingdom"

It when I post verses like this I get accused:
When all you do is continuously post verses about works, obedience, keeping commandments etc.. (as generally works-salvationists do) it should be no surprise that it's going to come across as though you are promoting salvation by works.

Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of יהוה and the Belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”
Why did you under line and their works follow them? Why will the works of believers be judged and what will be the determined outcome? *See 1 Corinthians 3:11-15.

John 14:23-24, “יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”
Guarding His Word is the demonstrative evidence of those who love Him.

John/Yahanan 5:28-30, “Do not be astonished at this-for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and will come forth. Those who have practiced righteousness will be resurrected in order to live; and those who have practiced wickedness will be resurrected in order to be damned."
We must not confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture. The good deeds of the redeemed (those who have done good) are not the basis of their salvation but the evidence of it. A person's conduct, whether good or evil, reveals the condition of his heart.

Doing good flows inescapably from a heart that is saved and doing evil flows equally inescapably from a heart that is unsaved. *Notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil.

What did Jesus say in John 3:18? - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already..

Are believers described as "those who have done good" or those who have done evil?"

Are unbelievers described as those "who have done evil" or "those who have done good?"

Mat 16:27, “For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His malakim; and then He will reward every man according to his works.”
*Notice "reward" every man according to his works, not grant eternal life to every man based on the merit of his works.

Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”
Believers are of the household of faith and believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.

John 8:24, “Therefore I said to you that you shall die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.”
Who is He? Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God. Jesus is God. Unbelievers reject who Jesus truly IS.

Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”
I just explained this verse earlier today in post #69,515. - https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-3476#post-3694417

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”
Guarding His commands is the demonstrative evidence of those who abide in Him. AMPC - "And by this we know and understand and have the proof that He [really] lives and makes His home in us: by the [Holy] Spirit Whom He has given us." 1 John 4:15 - Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

SO then, please explain a few of the verses here that deal with obedience...
I have explained them. Any questions? Comments?
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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Adam was not decived. He knew what he was doing.

Genesis 2:15-17 (NLT Study Bible Text,)
The First Command
15 The Lord God placed the man in the Garden of Eden to tend and watch over it. 16 But the Lord God warned him, “You may freely eat the fruit of every tree in the garden—17 except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat its fruit, you are sure to die.”

The first command given to Adam (there may have been others but not sure on that)

This command was given before Eve was created as we find in v18 - 22

Genesis 2:18-22 (NLT Study Bible Text,)
Creation of the Woman
18 Then the Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper who is just right for him.”19 So the Lord God formed from the ground all the wild animals and all the birds of the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would call them, and the man chose a name for each one. 20 He gave names to all the livestock, all the birds of the sky, and all the wild animals. But still there was no helper just right for him.
21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep. While the man slept, the Lord God took out one of the man’s ribs and closed up the opening. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib, and he brought her to the man.

So God did not (no writing suggests otherwise) tell Eve to not from the tree.

So Adam did not tell her, or if he did he didn't explain it correctly.

So Adam knew full well what he was doing. His eyes were wide open to this command. He has no excuse.
According to the Word's of the God of the Bible she knew, not only what was said, but who said it..

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

I see no failure of God or her husband here to explain the command. Can you give me your scriptural support for your statement:

So Adam did not tell her, or if he did he didn't explain it correctly.
In fact, she even knew it would be better not to even touch the tree, don't even go near it, the same thing the second Adam said to His Bride, the Church, regarding Adultery. Don't commit it, or even think about it.

I find your statement quite ironic given what the serpent convinced Eve of.

You seem to suggest that Eve wasn't at fault for her actions, that is must have been either God's Fault, or the First Adam for not explaining it properly.

Which implies that the God of Abraham was an unjust God whose judgments are not righteous, but are against us, because God unjustly punished all women for Eve's action that wasn't her fault.

I see this as a wide spread deception that I am trying to blow the trumpet on as did Paul. It's nothing personal, we have all been deceived. That isn't the problem. It's willfully staying in this condition even after the truth has been shown because or pride, religious traditions, those things which kept the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time from repenting..

2 Cor. 11:
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

The second Adam wasn't tricked by the "woman, wife, church" to reject that which His Father had commanded, even though the only God of Abraham Preachers on the planet were teaching others to do just that.

Of course, these details wouldn't matter to those who have been convinced they are already saved.
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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ok, so you ignore this, do you accept Paul's writings?

Romans 2:12, “For as many as have sinned without the Law, will also perish without the Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law, will be judged by the Law.”

Gal 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
I accept Paul's writings to the body of Christ. Romans 2:12 is describing the Jew and Gentiles need for salvation through Jesus Christ alone.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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See bold...what works proves out salvation? How many works proves our salvation? Do good works prove our salvation before God?
Good questions.
And I ask them myself.

I will try to answer them quickly and hopefully make some sense.

Firstly I would say that no amount of works will ever save us.
I have many friends who do not accept the claims of Jesus in terms of death and resurrection, Son of God.
They believe he was a moral teacher.
They believe in God or a god and hope their good works will be enough to get into heaven.

And some of them are kind, loving and gentle people.

With regards to the third question no works prove our salvation before God.
It's our faith in Jesus that saves us.
Jesus said that he must go back to the Father so that the Holy Spirit must come to convict the world of its sin. That sin being unbelief in him.
Jesus also said "The work of the Father is to believe in him, other translations say "The only work the Father wants is to believe in the one whom he sent"

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son, so that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life"

With regards to question one I say the works that prove our salvation are the ones that Jesus talks about when judging the sheep and the goats.

I think this is what James is addressing about faith without works.
It's our faith outworking that justifies our faith before men.

He was addressing the issue of favouritism.
Neglecting the poor and needy.

James 2:1-6

Beware of Personal Favoritism
1 My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality. 2 For if there should come into your assembly a man with gold rings, in fine apparel, and there should also come in a poor man in filthy clothes, 3 and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say to him, “You sit here in a good place,” and say to the poor man, “You stand there,” or, “Sit here at my footstool,” 4 have you not shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?
5 Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts?

James 2:14-18

Faith Without Works Is Dead
(cf. Gen. 22; Josh. 2)
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

The above verses are some of what Jesus judged the sheep and the goats on.

Yet what is interesting when Jesus judged the sheep were surprised and asked "When did we?

The Goats asked the same.

Difference being the sheep did the goats did not.

The sheep were surprised.
So I would say the works they did (for no reward or recompense) was a natural causative affect of being in Jesus and Jesus in them.

Therefore their faith was justified before men.

As for question 2. The number of works cannot be quantified.
Sanctification is a process.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Good questions.
And I ask them myself.

I will try to answer them quickly and hopefully make some sense.

Firstly I would say that no amount of works will ever save us.
I have many friends who do not accept the claims of Jesus in terms of death and resurrection, Son of God.
They believe he was a moral teacher.
They believe in God or a god and hope their good works will be enough to get into heaven.

And some of them are kind, loving and gentle people.

With regards to the third question no works prove our salvation before God.
It's our faith in Jesus that saves us.
Jesus said that he must go back to the Father so that the Holy Spirit must come to convict the world of its sin. That sin being unbelief in him.
Jesus also said "The work of the Father is to believe in him, other translations say "The only work the Father wants is to believe in the one whom he sent"

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son, so that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life"

With regards to question one I say the works that prove our salvation are the ones that Jesus talks about when judging the sheep and the goats.

I think this is what James is addressing about faith without works.
It's our faith outworking that justifies our faith before men.

He was addressing the issue of favouritism.
Neglecting the poor and needy.

James 2:1-6

Beware of Personal Favoritism
1 My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality. 2 For if there should come into your assembly a man with gold rings, in fine apparel, and there should also come in a poor man in filthy clothes, 3 and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say to him, “You sit here in a good place,” and say to the poor man, “You stand there,” or, “Sit here at my footstool,” 4 have you not shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?
5 Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts?

James 2:14-18

Faith Without Works Is Dead
(cf. Gen. 22; Josh. 2)
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

The above verses are some of what Jesus judged the sheep and the goats on.

Yet what is interesting when Jesus judged the sheep were surprised and asked "When did we?

The Goats asked the same.

Difference being the sheep did the goats did not.

The sheep were surprised.
So I would say the works they did (for no reward or recompense) was a natural causative affect of being in Jesus and Jesus in them.

Therefore their faith was justified before men.

As for question 2. The number of works cannot be quantified.
Sanctification is a process.

Do not lost men do these same works? What does that prove?

The moment I place my trust in Jesus Christ I am saved, not matter how many works or lack thereof I perform after I'm saved.
 

Shamah

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Jan 6, 2018
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When all you do is continuously post verses about works, obedience, keeping commandments etc.. (as generally works-salvationists do) it should be no surprise that it's going to come across as though you are promoting salvation by works.
Well to those who don't know the Messiah it is key that they get to know Him. For those that do know Messiah it is key that they follow Him. Can't follow Him without doing/being obedient to what He said. None are perfect yet this does not mean we ignore His Instructions. I assume the majority here calimm to accept and know the Messiah, if that is so the next step is to do what He says...

John 8:51 “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone guards My Word he shall never see death at all.”

Why did you under line and their works follow them? Why will the works of believers be judged and what will be the determined outcome? *See 1 Corinthians 3:11-15.
Because the common teaching says different then Rev 14:13-14, particularly the ending. All of it really...

Guarding His Word is the demonstrative evidence of those who love Him.
Witout a doubt, and it's also how to "be in Him and Him in you"

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”

We must not confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture. The good deeds of the redeemed (those who have done good) are not the basis of their salvation but the evidence of it. A person's conduct, whether good or evil, reveals the condition of his heart.
If it is evidence of it, then is lack of obedience evidence of no salvation?

James 2:14, “My brothers, what use is it for anyone to say he has belief but does not have works? This belief is unable to save him.”

Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”

Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”
 

Shamah

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Jan 6, 2018
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cont.

Doing good flows inescapably from a heart that is saved and doing evil flows equally inescapably from a heart that is unsaved. *Notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil.


Yes, so how could anyone call someone promoting "righteous works before Yah" be called justified by works unless they are literally saying the works alone save? Or is "practicing right/evil just mean beleive?

John 5:28-30, “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the tombs shall hear His voice, and shall come forth – those who have done* righteousness, to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced* evil matters, to a resurrection of judgment. Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent Me.”

“*done” is word #G4160 ποιέω poieo (poi-ye'-ō) v., to make or do. {in a very wide application, more or less direct; properly refers to a single act thus differing from G4238}, [apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary], Compare: G4238

“*practiced” G4238 πράσσω prasso (pras'-sō) v., 1. to practice, i.e. perform repeatedly or habitually., 2. (by implication) to execute, accomplish, etc., 3. (specially) to collect (dues), fare (personally)., {differing from G4160, which properly refers to a single act}, [a primary verb], KJV: commit, deeds, do, exact, keep, require, use arts, Compare: G4160

The language is clear.

What did Jesus say in John 3:18? - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already..


This is true IMO. We can isolate and build a doctrine of only the or we can consider that and this and everything else He said...

John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Yah remains on him.”

Are believers described as "those who have done good" or those who have done evil?"
Believers are those who follow Yahshua, to beleive is to do, only in modern western thinking is belief disconnected from doing.

Habakkuk 2:4, "Behold the proud, his soul is not right in him; but the just will live by faith."

“faith” is word #H530 אֱמוּנָה 'emuwnah (em-oo-naw') n-f., אֱמֻנָה 'emunah (em-oo-naw') [shortened], 1. (literally) firmness., 2. (figuratively) security., 3. (morally) fidelity.[feminine of H529], KJV: faith(-ful, -ly, -ness, (man)), set office, stability, steady, truly, truth, verily. , Root(s): H529

Hebrews 3:16-19, “For some, when they had heard, rebelled. But not all rebelled who came out of Egypt through Mosheh. But with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He vow that they would not enter into His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

If you believe standing in the street is dangerous you wont do it...

Are unbelievers described as those "who have done evil" or "those who have done good?"
they are described as those who "practiced evil"

“*practiced” G4238 πράσσω prasso (pras'-sō) v., 1. to practice, i.e. perform repeatedly or habitually., 2. (by implication) to execute, accomplish, etc., 3. (specially) to collect (dues), fare (personally)., {differing from G4160, which properly refers to a single act}, [a primary verb], KJV: commit, deeds, do, exact, keep, require, use arts, Compare: G4160

*Notice "reward" every man according to his works, not grant eternal life to every man based on the merit of his works.
yes each will get their reward, and Yahshua says Hiswordsare the standard:

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

Believers are of the household of faith and believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.
Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”

Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”

Who is He? Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God. Jesus is God. Unbelievers reject who Jesus truly IS.
This I agree fully:

John/Yahanan 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day.”

Acts 3:19-23, “Repent therefore and turn back, for the blotting out of your sins, in order that times of refreshing might come from the presence of the Master, and that He sends יהושע Messiah, pre-appointed for you, whom heaven needs to receive until the times of restoration of all matters, of which the Mighty One spoke through the mouth of all His set-apart prophets since of old. For Mosheh truly said to the fathers, ‘יהוה your Mighty One shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear according to all matters, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every being who does not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.”

I just explained this verse earlier today in post #69,515. - https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-3476#post-3694417

Guarding His commands is the demonstrative evidence of those who abide in Him. AMPC - "And by this we know and understand and have the proof that He [really] lives and makes His home in us: by the [Holy] Spirit Whom He has given us." 1 John 4:15 - Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
and if you confess He is the Messiah, you would also do what the Messiah and King says....

1 John/Yahanan 2:6, "He who says he abides in Him, is himself also obligated to walk as He walked."

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”

John/Yahanan 5:46-47, "For had you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, for he wrote about Me*. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

*Mosheh wrote:

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, “I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it.”

"listen" is word #8085 - שָׁמַעshama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey

I have explained them. Any questions? Comments?
I think you for replying, it is nice to get some feed back. My main point here is that there is a BIG difference between "works salvation" and "doing His will" Those in Him will do His will. Those not in Him will not. And many verses, that seem to be shunned, if I said them without putting a book and chapter and verse number would get mee called all kinds of names and "works salvationist"

Food for thought...
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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Typical straw man argument. There is a difference between authentic obedience to God and seeking justification by works.
Neither Shamah. nor myself have ever taught "justification by works", rather, I think we should do as the Master says since He is superior to me in every way.

Luke 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

This would also mean images of God in the likeness of man, man made religious traditions, man made religious High Days, our pride, our idols.

This doesn't mean to forsake any of God's Word like the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's Time did. It means to give up "OUR" thought and be renewed in our mind to the "mind that is in Christ".
I am GLAD you had the patients to answer that LONG WINDED Post. I would have gave up, even though they will think they are wiser, and falsely think they have won the debate. I am sure that is why they do not ask one Question at a time, then Post it. Instead typical of FALSE TEACHERS, they will use many questions at a time, and then they gloat, puffing themselves up with PRIDE, and FALSELY think they won the Debate.

I wonder how they get around this VERSE:

Romans 11:6 (HCSB)
6 Now if by grace, then it is not by works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace.
Rom. 11:
3 Lord, they (Levite Priests) have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Like the Wiese men, Zechariahs, Simion, Anna, there were many more who knew the Christ.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

The Jews were still depending on their version of the Priesthood with it's "Works" of the Law for remission of sins. They couldn't accept the replacement of the Levitical Priesthood with the Spirit of the person they just killed.

But you have been convinced that the Jews were trying to by justified by Following All of God's Laws. Rejecting the very Word's of the Christ Himself.

Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

I am not getting around this verse, I embrace it knowing what the Christ said about the Mainstream Preachers of His time. It is my hope that you might also think about His words.

The Jews were "cutoff" because they didn't believe what was written. God is no respecter of persons.

Rom. 11:
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Many, who come in Christ's name, don't "believe" this.
 

BillG

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Feb 15, 2017
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2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

I see no failure of God or her husband here to explain the command. Can you give me your scriptural support for your statement:
Firstly can you give scripture to support that God told the woman not to eat.

As I indicated I cannot give scriptural support that Adam did not tell her.

The truth per scripture is that God gave Adam this command and not Eve because she was not created before then.

So there is no record of God telling her or Adam.
That's why I said Adam either didn't or if he did he didn't explain it properly.

Interesting to note that she was not called Eve until after the event.
Before Adam just called her "Woman"

She obviously knew but what is also interesting.

God says to Adam

Genesis 2:17
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

The serpent says to the woman

Genesis 3:1-3

The Temptation and Fall of Man
(Rom. 5:12–21)
1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ”

Can you see the difference?

Firstly he goes and attacks the woman.
Secondly he refers to every tree of the garden, not just the tree of knowledge.
Thirdly he says "Nor shall you touch it" yet God did not say that to Adam.


You seem to suggest that Eve wasn't at fault for her actions, that is must have been either God's Fault, or the First Adam for not explaining it properly.
Where did I say that Eve was not at fault?
Which implies that the God of Abraham was an unjust God whose judgments are not righteous, but are against us, because God unjustly punished all women for Eve's action that wasn't her fault.
1 Timothy 2:14-15
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

Is not the God of Abraham the same God of Adam & Eve?
Is it not through them that we have the promised saviour?
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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Do not lost men do these same works? What does that prove?

The moment I place my trust in Jesus Christ I am saved, not matter how many works or lack thereof I perform after I'm saved.
Just clarify the last sentence please.
If I read it as you posted it then I agree,
Many post the same but leave the ? Off

Also the first one.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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Firstly can you give scripture to support that God told the woman not to eat.

As I indicated I cannot give scriptural support that Adam did not tell her.

The truth per scripture is that God gave Adam this command and not Eve because she was not created before then.

So there is no record of God telling her or Adam.
That's why I said Adam either didn't or if he did he didn't explain it properly.

Interesting to note that she was not called Eve until after the event.
Before Adam just called her "Woman"

She obviously knew but what is also interesting.

God says to Adam

Genesis 2:17
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

The serpent says to the woman

Genesis 3:1-3

The Temptation and Fall of Man
(Rom. 5:12–21)
1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ”

Can you see the difference?

Firstly he goes and attacks the woman.
Secondly he refers to every tree of the garden, not just the tree of knowledge.
Thirdly he says "Nor shall you touch it" yet God did not say that to Adam.




Where did I say that Eve was not at fault?


1 Timothy 2:14-15
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

Is not the God of Abraham the same God of Adam & Eve?
Is it not through them that we have the promised saviour?
So there is no record of God telling her or Adam.
That's why I said Adam either didn't or if he did he didn't explain it properly.
And yet God punished all women for what SHE DID.

What kind of a God would do such a thing if Eve wasn't properly informed? The God the serpent described would do such a thing.

You make my case Billy and you don't even know it.
 

BillG

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Feb 15, 2017
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And yet God punished all women for what SHE DID.

What kind of a God would do such a thing if Eve wasn't properly informed? The God the serpent described would do such a thing.

You make my case Billy and you don't even know it.
Where have I said God punished all women for what she did?

What kind of God would create a world knowing that sin would enter it so that billions of people would end up in hell?

What kind of God?
Did he create evil?

After all did he not create the serpent?

It's through the first Adam that sin entered the world.