Not By Works

[dcontroversal]

it's hard for a Christian to talk to a Mormon.

they use the same vocabulary, but they use different dictionaries.

Of course it it...Mormonism....another cult that does not worship the Jesus of the bible........!!

 

[Shamah]

The absolute truth that the lawyers, Pharisees and ALL who think they obey and keep the law miss....

NO ONE keeps it, NO ONE has KEPT IT, NO ONE will KEEP IT except JESUS.....everyone else is a LAW BREAKER.....exactly why the righteousness of CHRIST MUST BE IMPUTED WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW BY FAITH.........end of story......

Of course all have sinned and need mercy, yet this does not nullify the Instructions of the Most High.

Nor are we saved by our works or obedience, this does not nullity the need and desire for obedience.

John 8:51 “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone guards My Word he shall never see death at all.”

John/Yahanan 10:27-30, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; neither will any man snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who gave them to Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand: I and My Father are in accord."

Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding the Commands of יהוה and possessing the Witness of יהושע Messiah."

Legalisim (works justification) and hypergrace (grace perversion) are equally as bad.

Promoting obedience to His Law, COmmands, Instructions, Words is not legalisim, the accusation that it is, IMO, is evidence of a heart that

a) is in oppisition to His Law, thus the reason love grows cold:

“iniquity” is word # G458 - anomia Strong's Concordance, lawlessness, Short Definition: lawlessness, iniquity, Definition: lawlessness, iniquity, disobedience, sin

"iniquity" is: #0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459
Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law 1a) because ignorant of it1b) because of violating it, 2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Mattithyah 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."

b) does not want to be obedient, because a lack of His Spirit, as those who have His Spirit have His Law in their heart:

Jeremiah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law (Torah/Instructions) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."

Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.”

 

[posthuman]

Are you debating the fact that the Law was given to Jacob/Israyl and not Ismael?

you said:

Also about Haggar being the slave to the Law, umm did you ever think that Israel wa given the Law not Ismael?

"Hagar being the slave to the Law" ??

i don't think anyone ever said that either. possibly not in the history of the website.
so i assumed that you mishandled your phrasing of Galatians 4, and were disagreeing with Hagar, the 'slave' being representative of the Law.
if that's not what you meant, well i don't know what you're talking about. i've never heard anyone say that either. maybe you misunderstood someone.

Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.​

These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.​

(Galatians 4: 21-26)​

which covenant is Mt Sinai?

He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, ​

that is, the Ten Commandments; ​

and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.
(Deuteronomy 4:13) ​

the Word says this is figuratively Hagar.
if anyone doesn't like that, their beef isn't with me. it's with the Author.

yes, it's incredibly amazing, and who would believe it, even if they read it? but the Bible is full of incredible things

Can you provide a Scripture where YHWH gives the Law to Ismael?

how many times have you quoted the scriptures that say, 'one law for the the foreigner as well as the natural born' ?

 

[posthuman]

which was Paul accused of, on account of the gospel, legalism or promoting an excuse for licentiousness?

what does the evidence in the epistles say?

 

[VCO]

it's hard for a Christian to talk to a Mormon.

they use the same vocabulary, but they use different dictionaries.

That is the UNDERSTATEMENT OF THE YEAR. I bought this in a paper copy back in the early 90's, at a Christian book store. I am GLAD that Sandra Tanner put it Online. She and her late husband where raised Mormons, and managed to GET OUT. She has documented almost all of the Mormon False Terminologies, that sound the same as we USE, but they MEAN SOMETHING TOTALLY DIFFERENT. There are way more than most would ever suspect.

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/terminologymain.htm

 

[Shamah]

you said:



"Hagar being the slave to the Law" ??

i don't think anyone ever said that either. possibly not in the history of the website.
so i assumed that you mishandled your phrasing of Galatians 4, and were disagreeing with Hagar, the 'slave' being representative of the Law.
if that's not what you meant, well i don't know what you're talking about. i've never heard anyone say that either. maybe you misunderstood someone.

Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.​

These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.​

(Galatians 4: 21-26)​

which covenant is Mt Sinai?

He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, ​

that is, the Ten Commandments; ​

and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.​

(Deuteronomy 4:13) ​

the Word says this is figuratively Hagar.
if anyone doesn't like that, their beef isn't with me. it's with the Author.

yes, it's incredibly amazing, and who would believe it, even if they read it? but the Bible is full of incredible things



how many times have you quoted the scriptures that say, 'one law for the the foreigner as well as the natural born' ?

So can you answer who the Law was given to Israel or Ismael?

and yes "one Law for the native and for the traveller wo dwells with you"

Except that does not mean just anyone, it is those who have entered the Covenant:

Exodus 12:47-49, “All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the Passover to יהוה, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. One law shall be to him that is nativeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourns among you.”

Finally bondage is to sin, not to the Law. The Law is called freedom by James, who is the lead apostle and his name is written on the foundation of the Kingdom...

Psalm 119:44-45, "That I might guard Your Law continually, Forever and ever; That I might walk in liberty, For I have sought Your orders;"

James 1:22-25, “And become doers of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. Because if anyone is a hearer of the Word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror, for he looks at himself, and goes away, and immediately forgets what he was like. But he that looked into the perfect Law of liberty, and continues in it, not becoming a hearer that forgets, but a doer of work, this one shall be blessed in his doing.”

James 2:8-12, “If you truly accomplish the sovereign Law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself, (Lev 19:18) you do well, but if you show partiality, you commit sin, being found guilty by the Law as transgressors. For whoever shall guard all the Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” (Exo 20:14) also said, “Do not murder.” (Exo 20:13) Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of Law. So speak and so do as those who are to be judged by the Law of liberty.”

Living a life that is trapped in sin is bondage...

John 8:34-36, “יהושע answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone doing sin is a servant of sin. And the servant does not stay in the house forever – a son stays forever. If, then, the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.”

This is not bondage:

Mat 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deut 6:5) This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev 19:18) On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Maybe, just maybe you fail to consider, and I think we can not fully grasp how mush of a difference between living under the Leviticalpriesthood was compared to livingunder the High Priesthood of Yahshua.

John 8:34-36, “יהושע answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone doing sin is a servant of sin. And the servant does not stay in the house forever – a son stays forever. If, then, the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.”

The anti-Messiah called "the man of lawlessness" certianly sets men from from the Creator;s Instructions, Yahshua sets people free from sin, that is transgression against said Instructions...

John/Yahanan 10:16, "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. So there will be one flock, one Shepherd (4166 – poimén)."

 

[Shamah]

John 5:43, “I have come in My Father's Name, but you do not follow Me. Let another come in his own name; him you will follow.”

 

[VCO]

That is the UNDERSTATEMENT OF THE YEAR. I bought this in a paper copy back in the early 90's, at a Christian book store. I am GLAD that Sandra Tanner put it Online. She and her late husband where raised Mormons, and managed to GET OUT. She has documented almost all of the Mormon False Terminologies, that sound the same as we USE, but they MEAN SOMETHING TOTALLY DIFFERENT. There are way more than most would ever suspect.

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/terminologymain.htm

Actually it sounds like a couple people here, that have MADE UP THEIR TERMINOLOGY Differences and post them here.

 

[Seohce]

Nothing but another straw man false argument seriously lacking credibility and or truth....no one states that, implies that, has said that or even indicates that....states a lot about his so called obedience.....something about bearing false witness comes to mind

OUR LORD JESUS GAVE INSTRUCTIONS TO PREACH THE GOSPEL UNTO ALL NATIONS.


TO BAPTIZE AND TO TEACH OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. (matthew 28:18-20)


romans 10

14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”


THOSE WHO DO NOT TEACH OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S COMMANDS WERE NOT SENT TO PREACH THE GOSPEL.


1 john 4

1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.


4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.


1 john 2
3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a LIAR, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word,love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him:6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

revelations 21
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and ALL LIARS—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

LIKE ANANIAS AND SAPPHIRA, WHO AFTER ŔECEIVING THE HOLY SPIRIT THROUGH FAITH, LIED TO THE HOLY SPIRIT.

WILL THEY BE CONSIGNED TO THE FIERY LAKE OF BURNING SULFUR?

DOES THIS MAKE SENSE TO YOU?

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things COMETH THE WRATH OF .GOD ÙPON THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE


MAN GOT SEPARATED FROM GOD BECAUSE OF THE SIN OF DISOBEDIENCE WHEN MAN WAS DECEIVED BY THE SERPENT WHO SAID THAT “...Ye shall not surely die.”(genesis 3:4)


DÈCEIVERS OF THIS AGE SAYS THE SAME THING;


“YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE (PERIßH / BE CONDEMNED). ONCE YOU'RE SAVED, YOU ARE ALWAYS ßAVED. JUST HAVE FAITH VOID OF WORKS (OF RIGHTEOUSNESS / ÒBEDIENCE) AND YOU WILL POSSESS ETERNAL LIFE THE MOMENT YOU BELIEVE.

OSAS AND FAS ARE FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINES.


For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for THOSE WHO DO NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL OF GOD?



He will punish those who do not know God and DO NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS.



"GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED"

"LET GOD BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR"

 

[Seohce]

TO THE DOUBLE TALKING LIARS

The Sin and Doom of Ungodly People

jude 1

3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, WHO PERVERT THE ĢRACE OF OUR GOD INTO A LICENSE FOR IMMORALITY and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

8 In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings. 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them.

11 Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.

12 These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” 16 These people are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

17 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and WHO DO NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT.

26 As the body without the spirit is DEAD, so faith without deeds is DEAD.

DO NOT BE DECEIVED BY A "WALKING DEAD" THEOLOGY.

titus 1

16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, DISOBEDIENT and unfit for doing anything good.


ephesians 5

6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7 Therefore do not be partners with them.

 

[dcontroversal]

which was Paul accused of, on account of the gospel, legalism or promoting an excuse for licentiousness?

what does the evidence in the epistles say?

Good luck....you will get the same ole same ole....OBLIVIOUS <---a key word applicable unto the lawyers and Pharisees.......

 

[Seohce]

Good luck....you will get the same ole same ole....OBLIVIOUS <---a key word applicable unto the lawyers and Pharisees.......

SOMEONE WHO GAMBLES DEPEND ON LUCK BUT NOT TRUE CHRISTIANS WHO WALK AS JESUS DID AND TRUST IN HIS POWER THAT GIVES HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE AND NOT A "WALKING DEAD" THAT HAS NO HOPE AND DEPENDS ON LUCK.

 

[posthuman]

So can you answer who the Law was given to Israel or Ismael?

and yes "one Law for the native and for the traveller wo dwells with you"

Except that does not mean just anyone, it is those who have entered the Covenant

why should i answer that? i've never claimed anything of the sort.

the covenant that was made with the children of Israel in the wilderness is not the same as the covenant we were baptized into. look at what God tells us in Galatians 4, two covenants, portrayed by the slave and the free woman. God is the one who calls Sinai, where the Law was given, the slave woman. take it up with Him.

it is good to do the righteous world of the Law. I've never said otherwise. what I've maintained is what the scriptures say, that in Him, we are not under Law but grace.

 

[posthuman]

it is good to do the righteous world of the Law.

*righteous works of the Law

autocorrect that i seem to have missed

 

[posthuman]

LOL read Ps 105 again:

Psalms 105:6-10, “O seed of Aḇraham His servant, Children of Ya‛aqoḇ, His chosen ones! He is יהוה our Strength; His right-rulings are in all the earth. He has remembered His covenant forever, The Word He commanded, for a thousand generations, The covenant He made with Abraham, And His oath to Yitsḥaq, And established it to Ya‛aqoḇ for a law, To Yisra’yl – an everlasting covenant.”

read Numbers 18 again

Numbers 18:19
All the heave offerings of the holy things, which the children of Israel offer unto the LORD, have I given thee, and thy sons and thy daughters with thee, by a statute for ever: it [is] a covenant of salt for ever before the LORD unto thee and to thy seed with thee.

to Aaron and his sons, an everlasting covenant, their portion of everything offered to the LORD through their priesthood. what of these jots and titles? they remain. if it is the covenant Christ made with us, then we all stand hopelessly condemned, because where is the mountain, where is the temple, to what Levite do we bring our tithes and our sacrifices and our offerings?

but He made a new covenant, and brought salvation to those who were far off!

 

[TruthTalk]

read Numbers 18 again

Numbers 18:19
All the heave offerings of the holy things, which the children of Israel offer unto the LORD, have I given thee, and thy sons and thy daughters with thee, by a statute for ever: it [is] a covenant of salt for ever before the LORD unto thee and to thy seed with thee.

to Aaron and his sons, an everlasting covenant, their portion of everything offered to the LORD through their priesthood. what of these jots and titles? they remain. if it is the covenant Christ made with us, then we all stand hopelessly condemned, because where is the mountain, where is the temple, to what Levite do we bring our tithes and our sacrifices and our offerings?

but He made a new covenant, and brought salvation to those who were far off!

Hi Posthuman,

It is no longer what mountain do we worship on because we worship in spirit and in truth. And there is no temple because true believers are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Better to obey than to sacrifice.

Of course you know all these things so that my answer must be incomplete.

God bless

 

[gb9]

read Numbers 18 again

Numbers 18:19
All the heave offerings of the holy things, which the children of Israel offer unto the LORD, have I given thee, and thy sons and thy daughters with thee, by a statute for ever: it [is] a covenant of salt for ever before the LORD unto thee and to thy seed with thee.

to Aaron and his sons, an everlasting covenant, their portion of everything offered to the LORD through their priesthood. what of these jots and titles? they remain. if it is the covenant Christ made with us, then we all stand hopelessly condemned, because where is the mountain, where is the temple, to what Levite do we bring our tithes and our sacrifices and our offerings?

but He made a new covenant, and brought salvation to those who were far off!

but, see here is the thing post- hiz-shamah , and the rest of that little club do not recognize the New Covenant . they think there is only a RENEWED covenant. and we have to accept the Mosaic Covenant to be saved.

once we understand that part of their " theology ", you see the reasoning behind it.

 

[posthuman]

Hi Posthuman,

It is no longer what mountain do we worship on because we worship in spirit and in truth. And there is no temple because true believers are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Better to obey than to sacrifice.

Of course you know all these things so that my answer must be incomplete.

God bless

what sorrow the Jew under the Law must have today! the Law commands that no offering may be made except at the tabernacle or temple, and that everything must be cleansed with blood. without the temple it is impossible for them to keep even a days requirement of the Law!

because they reject the Son, they have no hope but that He will look on their iniquity with mercy.

how much more sorrow when they finally see the One they pierced and realize who He is! what He did! how hope and salvation had been there all this time, His hand held out to them if they would only have believed!

 

[posthuman]

but, see here is the thing post- hiz-shamah , and the rest of that little club do not recognize the New Covenant . they think there is only a RENEWED covenant. and we have to accept the Mosaic Covenant to be saved.

once we understand that part of their " theology ", you see the reasoning behind it.

the believing pharisees who thought everyone must be commanded to keep the Law of Moses were still called believers. ((incidentally I hope studydude will notice that they were still called pharisees at the same time the scripture calls them believers))
I can't write them off just because they don't see what we see. who among us sees all things clearly? not me.

 

[posthuman]

SOMEONE WHO GAMBLES DEPEND ON LUCK BUT NOT TRUE CHRISTIANS WHO WALK AS JESUS DID AND TRUST IN HIS POWER THAT GIVES HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE AND NOT A "WALKING DEAD" THAT HAS NO HOPE AND DEPENDS ON LUCK.

"Thank God i don't believe in luck"