Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
168
0
If you even hae to ask this, I must wonder if you knew why Jesus HAD TO DIE to begin with.

Don;t you think if we could sa top sinning,. God would have found a different way that to hae his son go through the horrors of the cross?
The way I read this response is, if sin could be conquered by our wills, Jesus would not have
had to die, but in doing so Jesus still left us as sinners, but with faith that we are forgiven.

I read the situation is we cannot stop sinning because only with communion with God and the
knowledge and experience He truly loves us, repentance and filling of the Holy Spirit can we
know real victory, because we are born again, we are remade, in Christ we do have the victory.

It seems you do not believe in this change, or have experienced it, in your world Christ carries
the forgiveness but not the cure. Now it takes faith and experience to know what Christ brings,
some have experienced this, obviously others have not, and are determined to say to all those who
experience this transformation are liars and hypocrites. Trouble is we cannot deny our experience
or our hearts, so this is not an opinion or argument, it is just fact and reality.

Are we perfect, no, are we still growing more into the likeness of Christ, always, but we cannot
diminish the work God has done in us. Why would I lie about something so fundamental and core
to who I am and my walk in Jesus? I hold no hatred or malice against any, or heinous sins to
confess, or secret passions, other than to explore fellowship and grow in faith.

On cc the experiences people feel and describe I cannot relate to because Jesus has flooded my
life I do not relate or remember lots of different perspectives. All I know is I have changed, and
I rejoice in Christ my saviour and His love for me and you, Amen.

And how you react to this, is your choice, I just can share what a great Lord we have and His
word that is like jewels in the desert of this world. They speak to me like never before, and
I cannot explain why, just my heart is more in tune with the writers, I can see their words,
and mine end up very similar. Amen and glory to our Lord.
 
Last edited:
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,431
0
When we preach the gospel of the grace of Christ and no one says "What?...are you saying we can just go out and sin because of grace?" - " Can we now go out and murder people? "

If no one says that to us when we are preaching the grace of God. Then we have not preached the gospel like Paul did.

Paul had to answer this very same thing at least 4 times and he says that it is slanderously reported he says it's ok to sin all they want because of grace. Rom. 3:8

The very nature of the gospel leads the carnal mind of man to think that it means we can sin all we want because of grace.

This is also what the natural mind that some Christians live by...which is what they hear when they hear the true gospel being preached that grace believers are saying it's ok to sin all you want now because of grace.

The reality is what is being said is the complete opposite of what those listening with their natural minds think is being said.

We don't need to water down the gospel because it might get mis-understood as it takes away the full strength of the completed and awesome work that our Lord Jesus Christ did for all of us..

The answer to shall we sin so that grace may abound is in Romans chapters 6 and 7.




 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
70,920
9,669
113
Even murderers can be forgiven by God. :)


So if I go out a murdering, that can be compared to getting angry or annoyed
in inappropriate places, or feeling hungry and wanting a nice piece of cake?

This may sound flippant but the way people talk about sin like it just flows continuously
from peoples lives, I am wondering what we are talking about. I am sure a quick dose
of reality and not escapism and facing ones frustrations and anger issues, would start
to change peoples lives permanently, and the victory Christ brought could start to work
in their lives.
 

AllenW

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2016
1,450
70
48
When we preach the gospel of the grace of Christ and no one says "What?...are you saying we can just go out and sin because of grace?" - " Can we now go out and murder people? "

If no one says that to us when we are preaching the grace of God. Then we have not preached the gospel like Paul did.

Paul had to answer this very same thing at least 4 times and he says that it is slanderously reported he says it's ok to sin all they want because of grace. Rom. 3:8

The very nature of the gospel leads the carnal mind of man to think that it means we can sin all we want because of grace.

This is also what the natural mind that some Christians live by...which is what they hear when they hear the true gospel being preached that grace believers are saying it's ok to sin all you want now because of grace.

The reality is what is being said is the complete opposite of what those listening with their natural minds think is being said.

We don't need to water down the gospel because it might get mis-understood as it takes away the full strength of the completed and awesome work that our Lord Jesus Christ did for all of us..

The answer to shall we sin so that grace may abound is in Romans chapters 6 and 7.




I have to admit this idea has been around for a long time.
Yet it has never been preached in any church I've ever been in.
A lot that I hear on these forums have never been preached in churches.
It makes me think that 2 people sitting side by side in church, worshipping God together in the same denomination, yet may very well be believing different things because it hasn't been taught properly what the church actually believes.
I'm not stupid.
32 years of being saved and always going to church and this happens every where.
I could believe something and not really understanding what it is I'm believing.

Like this Dr. Lloyd-Jones makes a good point, but I never heard of such a thing come out of a church before.
 
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
168
0
Grace being preached here is not biblical grace but defeated grace.
There is no holiness or transformation into the true likeness of Jesus,
or becoming a loving moral person as a shining light, or salt in a dark
world.

Christ message is transformation of sinners into saints, and the love shown
between the saints is the light in the darkness of Gods truth alive in peoples
lives. Now if you experience this, then amen, you have the Holy Spirit and His
work in your heart.

I remember reading someone saying believers we some of the most evil people
in the world. I find this a very odd statement, because this is not my experience
but the opposite. So I do not recognise the gospel some share, its foundations in
scripture or its intent.

Such people want to say those similar to myself are evil and heinous, which is
a joke as there is no foundation to such an accusation except their theology
predicts we must be. Now when a theory comes against facts where it does not
work the theory has to change or it is shown as delusion.

What becomes clearer over the years of these interactions, is nothing moves
forward on their side, while for me, God is taking me from glory to glory, and I
just praise His Holy Name. Believe in Christ, the cross and the victory He has
brought our hearts. Step out in faith and obedience and He will heal you. Amen
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,431
0
I find it odd that some of the very ones that say we are to walk in righteousness and purity of heart are the ones that slander others, insult others, call them names like satanic, heretics, lovers of sinning and haters of God's word, haters of those that walk righteously and other garbage like this.

James 3:8-10 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

[SUP]9 [/SUP] Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be
.
 
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
168
0
and if you and others would not water down the meaning of sin, you and others would not be so flippant about not doing any.
gb9 - please tell me what sin specifically you have in mind?

Sin is not a general thing like breathing, it is very, very specific and often involves
some specific relationships and choices made by people. You are being very specific
and accusatory that you take "sin" seriously while other dilute it, so get specific or else
it is just a put down, and has not value at all.
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
70,920
9,669
113
I was only kidding when I called you a pagan heretic. :( *sniffle*

lol


I find it odd that some of the very ones that say we are to walk in righteousness and purity of heart are the ones that slander others, insult others, call them names like satanic, heretics, lovers of sinning and haters of God's word, haters of those that walk righteously and other garbage like this.

James 3:8-10 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

[SUP]9 [/SUP] Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be
.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
517
113
John 6:29;

New International Version Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
And this belief leads to works. Here is the context. Lets see the verbs....

James 2
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? [SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, [SUP]16 [/SUP]and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? [SUP]17 [/SUP]Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[SUP][d][/SUP] works, and I will show you my faith by my[SUP][e][/SUP] works. [SUP]19 [/SUP]You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! [SUP]20 [/SUP]But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[SUP][f][/SUP] [SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? [SUP]22 [/SUP]Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? [SUP]23 [/SUP]And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[SUP][g][/SUP] And he was called the friend of God. [SUP]24 [/SUP]You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.



Now let's look at some other verbs (that's ACTION btw):

Hebrews 11

[h=3]By Faith We Understand[/h]11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

[h=3]Faith at the Dawn of History[/h][SUP]4 [/SUP]By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; [SUP][a][/SUP] for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. [SUP]6 [/SUP]But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

[h=3]Faithful Abraham[/h][SUP]8 [/SUP]By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. [SUP]9 [/SUP]By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; [SUP]10 [/SUP]for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child[SUP][b][/SUP] when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore.

[h=3]The Heavenly Hope[/h][SUP]13 [/SUP]These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them,[SUP][c][/SUP] embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. [SUP]15 [/SUP]And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. [SUP]16 [/SUP]But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

[h=3]The Faith of the Patriarchs[/h][SUP]17 [/SUP]By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, [SUP]18 [/SUP]of whom it was said, “In Isaac your seed shall be called,”[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]19 [/SUP]concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the departure of the children of Israel, and gave instructions concerning his bones.

[h=3]The Faith of Moses[/h][SUP]23 [/SUP]By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king’s command.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, [SUP]25 [/SUP]choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, [SUP]26 [/SUP]esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in[SUP][e][/SUP] Egypt; for he looked to the reward.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible. [SUP]28 [/SUP]By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, lest he who destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]By faith they passed through the Red Sea as by dry land, whereas the Egyptians, attempting to do so, were drowned.

[h=3]By Faith They Overcame[/h][SUP]30 [/SUP]By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for seven days. [SUP]31 [/SUP]By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace.

[SUP]32 [/SUP]And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: [SUP]33 [/SUP]who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, [SUP]34 [/SUP]quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. [SUP]35 [/SUP]Women received their dead raised to life again.

Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. [SUP]37 [/SUP]They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted,[SUP][f][/SUP] were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— [SUP]38 [/SUP]of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.

[SUP]39 [/SUP]And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, [SUP]40 [/SUP]God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.



So you want a deeper understanding of faith? Then you need to understand that its action. Because that's HOW God describes faith. He describes faith in terms of action.

....again
James 2

[SUP]14 [/SUP]What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,431
0
True faith will have a corresponding action of some kind.

Let's look at what James says about faith & it's corresponding "work" in relation to having eternal life now and forever because we heard the message of Christ and believed on Him - then we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Eph. 1:13

It is very interesting that in James's examples of faith "being made alive" by a work or a corresponding action.
Both Rahab and Abraham each did a one time corresponding action to demonstrate their faith.

Abraham believed God and offered up Isaac on the alter. Rahab received the spies.
Both one time events in their life - God calls this faith in action.


James 2:20-25 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

[SUP]21 [/SUP] Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

[SUP]22[/SUP]You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

[SUP]23 [/SUP] and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.

[SUP]24 [/SUP] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[SUP]25 [/SUP] In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

Paul and James completely go together and do not cancel each other out nor contradict the basic truth of believing in Christ brings eternal life when we hear the true message of Christ's work and that we have the forgiveness of sins.


We do the very same thing when we hear the message of Christ and we believe and then God seals us with the Holy Spirit. This is our faith
with a corresponding action or a "work".

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth,
the gospel of your salvationhaving also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Jesus said to do the work of God was to believe in the Son.

Romans 10:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But what does it say? "
THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

[SUP]9 [/SUP]
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

[SUP]10[/SUP]for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

This is faith with corresponding action - or a work. This is how we are saved by grace through faith just like Paul said.

James talk about "faith" and "works" is in relation to helping out our fellow man that is in need.
 
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
168
0
Do you know how to hug someone, to reach out and give comfort in times of trouble?
Do you know how sin hurts and takes away peoples confidence, how their whole lives
can collapse around them, that the foundations go like sand.

We are a simple people where emotional honesty and who we are is written on our
sleeves. This is what happens when Christ cleanses and forgives you.

I have seen a society of people where pretend becomes their badge of honour,
and to show weakness is to be written off. Everything is about status and proof,
while they are just building bigger sand castles which are being blown down.

Jesus wants us to know we are loved and to love in return. It is strange to me
how this becomes such a difficult thing to grasp or know, or admit to.

I remember the joy as a kid I had just being with my cousins and sharing life
and the experiences we have together. This is where we are in Christ, so let
us encourage one another in good works and in praise of our King, the Lord Jesus
Christ, Amen.
 
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
168
0
Even murderers can be forgiven by God. :)
God forgives people who have done terrible things, I have met some who were terrorists
and killed lots of people, or young gang members who butched an opponent.

So what we are talking about is believers, who have faith in Christ, who have repented of
their sins, desire to follow Jesus and walk righteously yet declare daily they are sinning.
I am interested in what sins they are commiting which they have such issues over dealing
with? It is easy to get into bad habbits and cross over from personal goals and frustrations
into a form of self condemnation which is just personal dislike of oneself.

Now if there really are no issues, it is just a form of perfectionism, where any failure
qualifies one for disqualification, this is nothing about the spiritual issues, but rather denial
of Jesus truly loving and transforming you, which is scary if not true, but brilliant if it is
already a reality in your life, just you have not the faith to realise it yet.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
[/COLOR]
James 2v24
[SUP]24 [/SUP]You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
typical.

Rom 4; If Abraham was found by works he has something to boast, But not before Gopd. For what does the scripture say, Abraham believed Gopd and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Now to him who works, His WAGES are not counted as grace but as debt, But to him who does not work, his FAITH is counted as righteousness.

Did James contradict Paul? Of course not. James was telling people to examin themselves to see if they be of faith, or not.. If one CLAIMS to have faith but has no work, can his FAITH save him? Of course not. Why? HIS FGAITH IOS DEAD.

Feel free to stand in front of God with your works, I will stand in front of God on HIS GOOD WORKS>. And his promise.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Well we see Chris did not answer Bills question, Typical. I think it is about time to move on..