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benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Think you got it wrong..heres the WHOLE scripture..

John 15 New International Version (NIV)
The Vine and the Branches

15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other."

NO WHERE does it say if we dont produce fruit "God takes away"

I especiallt like verse 2

PLEASE READ IT ALL CAREFULLY :)
In verse 2, how do you interpret: He cuts off every branch IN ME that bears no fruit?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Right, the person must be converted. I'd be a bit more emphatic than "not quite" and say it's an impossibility.



First off, belief is granted by the Father; Ephesians 1:19, and is his gift, Romans 12:3 &c. It is not innate, or, what a person does.

Furthermore you conflate evidence of conversion with what one must do to be saved. That's just one reason your gospel is errant (not trying to be harsh, it just is what it is).

Your error is based in this, to further explain it: you're making what the Scriptures show us concerning what qualifies and identifies a true believer (i.e. 1 John) into what a person has to do to "get into heaven." There are descriptive and prescriptive texts, and in ignorance you meld the two together and arrive at an errant gospel.
Do you like the idea that God chooses whether you have EL or hell fire? IOW some people are gifted with EL, and some people are not and go to hell fire.
 

Jewel5712

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2018
4,091
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In verse 2, how do you interpret: He cuts off every branch IN ME that bears no fruit?
Being "in Him" is being saved...anyone NOT saved is NOT in Him.....but he PRUNES (not throws us away altogether) so we can bear MORE fruit..

God is always helping us to be more Christ like..having better charector..molding..shaping..pruning..often through trials n tribulations which OFTEN produce better "fruit" in our lives
 

Jewel5712

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2018
4,091
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Do you like the idea that God chooses whether you have EL or hell fire? IOW some people are gifted with EL, and some people are not and go to hell fire.
"Gifted"? The only gift that decerns eternal life n hell is if we have a persomal relationship with Jesus Christ or not..n if we ACCEPT His "gift" of salvation..
 
Dec 28, 2016
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Do you like the idea that God chooses whether you have EL or hell fire? IOW some people are gifted with EL, and some people are not and go to hell fire.
Your argument and premise is the Romans 9:20 man. Do you reply against God often?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
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Being "in Him" is being saved...anyone NOT saved is NOT in Him.....but he PRUNES (not throws us away altogether) so we can bear MORE fruit..

God is always helping us to be more Christ like..having better charector..molding..shaping..pruning..often through trials n tribulations which OFTEN produce better "fruit" in our lives
So if being IN HIM is a saved person, why is God cutting off saved people? vs 2? I will answer it for you if you do not know, but take a stab at it anyway?
 

Jewel5712

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2018
4,091
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In verse 2, how do you interpret: He cuts off every branch IN ME that bears no fruit?
John 15:2

"He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful"

In this context..the "me" is a saved individual

God is always shaping molding and pruning us to help us be more like Him..it often comes in our lives through trials n tibulations to produce. MORE "fruit"

BTW..next time..please reference the WHOLE VERSE n not just half to try to make your point..thats changing the meaning of the scripture!
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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"Gifted"? The only gift that decerns eternal life n hell is if we have a persomal relationship with Jesus Christ or not..n if we ACCEPT His "gift" of salvation..
Is it a one-way street. IOW does Jesus decide to have a relationship with us and he initiates it and it exists. If Jesus chooses to not have a relationship with us he does not initiate and it does not exist?

Or do we have something to do with it too?
 

Jewel5712

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2018
4,091
2,257
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So if being IN HIM is a saved person, why is God cutting off saved people? vs 2? I will answer it for you if you do not know, but take a stab at it anyway?
See my next post..
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
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John 15:2

"He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful"

In this context..the "me" is a saved individual

God is always shaping molding and pruning us to help us be more like Him..it often comes in our lives through trials n tibulations to produce. MORE "fruit"
In this context the "me" is Jesus. "Every branch" is the saved individuals. Right? Jesus is the vine, branches are individual people. And in this context, every branch in the vine, or every branch in me, or or every branch in Jesus are cut off by God if they do not produce fruit.

Going further on in Vs 2, Jesus says even those branches that are producing fruit are pruned and purged so as to produce more fruit.

In this context what does this scripture say about OSAS?
 

Jewel5712

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2018
4,091
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Is it a one-way street. IOW does Jesus decide to have a relationship with us and he initiates it and it exists. If Jesus chooses to not have a relationship with us he does not initiate and it does not exist?

Or do we have something to do with it too?
Jesus does not "initiate, NOT having a relationship with those who know n love Him..the whole plan of salvation is to RESTORE His people BACK TO GOD..His creation..that sin sepetated..God has NEVER caused ..apeoved etc of seperation from Him..man does that by sin..but when we DO sin..we (thanks to Jesus) can asl forgiveness and be restored back to God
 

Jewel5712

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2018
4,091
2,257
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In this context the "me" is Jesus. "Every branch" is the saved individuals. Right? Jesus is the vine, branches are individual people. And in this context, every branch in the vine, or every branch in me, or or every branch in Jesus are cut off by God if they do not produce fruit.

Going further on in Vs 2, Jesus says even those branches that are producing fruit are pruned and purged so as to produce more fruit.

In this context what does this scripture say about OSAS?
God n Jesus are one in the same..God is not going to cut of Jesus ..

Yes..Jesus is the vine..we are the branches..

And so you arent adding more to the scripture..read remaining verses that i posted to get full context..i wish i could bold print of highlight but i cant on my phone...

The context os not refering to losing someonex salvation because an unsaved person wouldnt be "in Him" anyway..
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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In verse 2, how do you interpret: He cuts off every branch IN ME that bears no fruit?
Your Interpretation is wrong, the branch that does not bear fruit are pretenders like Judas was. -- your interpretation is wrong therefore your application is wrong. You are trying to support your false application that a true believer can lose their Eternal Salvation, they cannot. Ask God to open your spiritual eye's and you will see.

A fake believer will give lip service to Christ but are not true believers. They are the one's who are cut off. God will never abandon a True Believer, never. The ones who God's word fell on rock ground.

You have been told this over and over and over and refuse to open your spiritual eyes, a pity.

John15:2
He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

Adam Clark Commentary
He taketh away
- As the vine-dresser will remove every unfruitful branch from the vine, so will my Father remove every unfruitful member from my mystical body - such as Judas, the unbelieving Jews, the apostatizing disciples, and all false and merely nominal Christians, who are attached to the vine by faith in the word and Divine mission of Christ, while they live not in his life and Spirit, and bring forth no fruit to the glory of God; and also every branch which has been in him by true faith - such as have given way to iniquity, and made shipwreck of their faith and of their good conscience: all these he taketh away.
 

Jewel5712

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2018
4,091
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@benhur ..you dont become part of him (the vine) until saved...if we arent "in him" we werent really saved to begim with..kinda like people who do a lot of religious THINGS but have missed the relatiomship with Jesus entirely..and God (the gardner) is the one the decerns that by a person heart..
 

Jewel5712

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2018
4,091
2,257
113
Your Interpretation is wrong, the branch that does not bear fruit are pretenders like Judas was. -- your interpretation is wrong therefore your application is wrong. You are trying to support your false application that a true believer can lose their Eternal Salvation, they cannot. Ask God to open your spiritual eye's and you will see.

A fake believer will give lip service to Christ but are not true believers. They are the one's who are cut off. God will never abandon a True Believer, never. The ones who God's word fell on rock ground.

You have been told this over and over and over and refuse to open your spiritual eyes, a pity.

John15:2
He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

Adam Clark Commentary
He taketh away
- As the vine-dresser will remove every unfruitful branch from the vine, so will my Father remove every unfruitful member from my mystical body - such as Judas, the unbelieving Jews, the apostatizing disciples, and all false and merely nominal Christians, who are attached to the vine by faith in the word and Divine mission of Christ, while they live not in his life and Spirit, and bring forth no fruit to the glory of God; and also every branch which has been in him by true faith - such as have given way to iniquity, and made shipwreck of their faith and of their good conscience: all these he taketh away.
Lol..thats pretty much what i posted as well..lol
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,343
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Then see if you have enough self control to interpret it with me correctly. Lets start with who is the vine?
The context is bearing fruit not salvation.....regardless of how many Cainologists try to equate this to salvation and or losing salvation it is not speaking of salvation......wake up....the context is bearing fruit....nothing more nothing less!
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
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Jesus does not "initiate, NOT having a relationship with those who know n love Him..the whole plan of salvation is to RESTORE His people BACK TO GOD..His creation..that sin sepetated..God has NEVER caused ..apeoved etc of seperation from Him..man does that by sin..but when we DO sin..we (thanks to Jesus) can ask forgiveness and be restored back to God
Amen Jewel, "Paradise lost -- the first Adam; Paradise restored -- the second Adam, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, praise God.