Not By Works

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NoNameMcgee

Guest
Faith in Christ is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no resulting evidential works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

In James 2:16, 17, 20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was justified by works. He was "shown to be righteous."

In James 2:22, faith made complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous".

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her authentic faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs.

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

So man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26).

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony* :)
amen
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Most of us do not believe that truly Born Again believers cannot lose their Salvation.
Me thinks you put one too many negatives in your above statement o_O;):giggle:

It should read: Most of us do believe that truly Born Again believers cannot lose their Salvation.

OR

Most of us do not believe that truly Born Again believers can lose their Salvation.

:D
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
Psalm 6:1 King James Version (KJV). 6 O Lord, rebuke me not in thine anger, neither chasten me in thy hot displeasure.
what is your point with this post?

if youre disagreeing with the statement blue made

youre taking the verse you posted out of context

or maybe youre just posting random verses but


Romans 12:19
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

(blues point about ultimate vengence)


hebrews 12

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby



(once we are born again saved believers if we do wrong, He will chasten us and correct us as a loving father disciplines His children)
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
not only do I go to hell, but I'll drag you down with me, then vengeance will be mine
ohhhh is this as to say how you think satan is thinking?
🤔

lol i missed a lot and misunderstood your post first read through i think
 
Dec 12, 2013
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How hard is it to understand the following truths....

a. Men/Women are entirely saved, justified, sealed and given the irrevocable gift of eternal life by faith and faith alone.

b. Those who have been SAVED "past tense" by FAITH ALONE are BABES in Christ and MUST GROW AND MATURE int the faith before they begin to produce FRUIT for GOD

c. The SPIRITUAL GROWTH process is based upon numerous factors, MAINLY the SPIRITUAL DIET based upon the word of GOD and the TRANSFORMATIONAL process described in Romans 12:1-2

d. The process DESCRIBED in "C" can be stunted, increased, hindered, brought to fruition based upon NUMEROUS FACT in our lives

e. The above processes "B-D" will determine the amount, type, level, number, etc. of works and fruit that a believer will bear

f. Believers, based upon the above WILL have every flavor of works under the sun. Some will produce an ABUNDANCE of GOOD fruit, SOME will produce VERY LITTLE fruit and their will be MANY with every gambit of production found within the above scope.

g. Some will not produce for a LONG time, SOME will produce quickly, SOME will produce and then fade off, ALL will have works that do not measure up and for sure......the amount will not DETERMINE SALVATION<---SOME will have their works BURNT to a CRISP yet they themselves will be saved YET SO AS BY FIRE.

h. LASTLY.....ALL who have been genuinely SAVED have ALREADY done the WORKS of the HEAVENLY FATHER by believing in HIM whom HE has sent.

WORKS do not save, keep saved, help stay saved, maintain salvation, top off salvation, seal the deal, gain entrance into the kingdom etc. etc. etc. <----redundant for a reason......

ALL who add works as part of the salvation equation are peddling a false dogma with no power to save according to the bible!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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K my friends.....duty and chores call.....be back later and KEEP swinging the sword for Christ and fighting the good fight....love you all and love interacting with you all.....peace.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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Faith in Christ is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root.

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. *Perfect Harmony*:)
Hi Mailmandan, I once heard a pastor/teacher say that exegesis of a text is kind of like taking apart a flower to explain how it all works together to produce something so beautiful, such is our Saving Faith.

Faith is a "gift of God", and every "True Christian" will manifest their Faith, (the root of salvation) with fruit, (evidence of a "Living Faith". When or how much faith each child of God will produce is in accordance to our Savior, divine providence.

Romans12:3b
"but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Romans8:28
"God causes all things to work together for good, to those who love God."

1Corinthians4:7
"For who makes you so superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?"
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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There is a relationship between faith and works! James 2 states the relationship!
Faith produces works!
No faith no works!


James 2 NIV

Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. 20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
That is Bad Theology, and NOT AT ALL is Salvation Connected to Works. LOVE produces Obedience (Works of Righteousness), which the Holy Spirit poured GOD's LOVE into the good soil in our Hearts. That LOVE will sprout producing the same kind of LOVE flowing out of our Hearts for GOD and the Brethren, that GOD had the HOLY SPIRIT pour into our Hearts. Here read it for yourself:

Romans 5:5 (HCSB)
5 This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

1 John 3:14-19 (HCSB)
14 We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death.
15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.
16 This is how we have come to know love: He laid down His life for us. We should also lay down our lives for our brothers.
17 If anyone has this world’s goods and sees his brother in need but closes his eyes to his ⌊need⌋—how can God’s love reside in him?
18 Little children, we must not love with word or speech, but with truth and action.
19 This is how we will know we belong to the truth and will convince our conscience in His presence,

1 John 4:19 (NKJV)
19 We love Him because He first loved us.


What is wrong with connecting works of righteousness to faith?


Romans 11:6 (HCSB)
6 Now if by grace, then it is not by works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace.


You were SAVED by GRACE through faith, but you LOVE, because GOD FIRST LOVED US, and Poured His LOVE directly into our Hearts. Our Obedience is directly attributed to the LOVE HE POURED INTO OUR HEARTS.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,970
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Me thinks you put one too many negatives in your above statement o_O;):giggle:

It should read: Most of us do believe that truly Born Again believers cannot lose their Salvation.

OR

Most of us do not believe that truly Born Again believers can lose their Salvation.

:D

Thank You, I knew it did not look right, and could not figure out why.

Most of us do believe that truly Born Again believers cannot lose their Salvation. Looks a whole lot better.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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There is a relationship between faith and works! James 2 states the relationship!
Faith produces works!
No faith no works!
As for me the relationship is with God through Jesus as a result of his death and resurrection.

When we repent of the sin of unbelief in Jesus (which the Holy Spirit came convict us off when Jesus went back to the Father and said the Holy Spirit must come to do this)

So when we repent of that unbelief in Jesus and place genuine saving faith we have a relationship with God.

He seeks that more than our works.

John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Jeremiah 29:11
11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope.

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

1 John 5:13
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

So to me relationship is not between works and faith as such.

The relationship is with God as a result of faith with leads to good works prepared before hand.

Any loving child of God will want to do what the father asks of us.
It's a natural process of relationship.
And yes we will get it wrong, mess up but he still loves us.

Works are an outpouring of love and not to be saved.

Alas this is where many fall foul.
They do works to get affirmation and love in the hope to solidify the relationship.
But the truth is we are already in a relationship with God.
When we get that then our focus changes and reasons why we do works.

Romans 5:1-5

Faith Triumphs in Trouble
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
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There is a relationship between faith and works! James 2 states the relationship!
Faith produces works!
No faith no works!
Endoscopy you are trying to make James chapter 2 say something it is not saying; the little jingle that you use all the time, "faith=works, no faith no works," is wrong, we are saved by grace, "Not By Works" Faith is a gift of God and everyone is given a measure of faith by God.

You are boasting in your works.

Faith produces works! Wrong; the root of our salvation produces fruit, faith is a gift of God.
No faith no works! Wrong; No faith no root; Faith is the root of our salvation,

1Corinthians4:7
"For who makes you so superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?"
 
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theanointedsinner

Guest
Wow if you mean what I think you mean, it is REFRESHING to have a New Member that understands what the Scriptures say about Salvation and the LOVE that spawns our Obedience.

Do you agree, that SALVATION had nothing to do with Works, but is Eternal, and the Obedience is PART of GOD's LOVE that HE had the HOLY SPIRIT pour into our hearts, Rom. 5:5. That LOVE HE put into our hearts will want to do what Pleases HIM, because the LOVE coming out of our Hearts is the SAME kind of LOVE HE SOWED into the good soil of our Hearts.

WELCOME ABOARD. The regulars here that believe in the Eternal Security of Christ, are dcontroversal, Magenta, Jewel, TruthTalk, eternally-grateful, UnderGrace, blue-ladybug, BillG, and I am VCO. If I missed anyone, please forgive me.
would you pray for me, pray that I can be stirred the same way Romans 11:14 is saying

14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. (Romans 11:14)

that God can start with me on envying the salvation of others so that I can be led to salvation, and pray also that this envy that God will give me can lead me to a more positive response


and by the way, fyi you also forgot NoNameMcgee
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,259
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would you pray for me, pray that I can be stirred the same way Romans 11:14 is saying

14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. (Romans 11:14)

that God can start with me on envying the salvation of others so that I can be led to salvation, and pray also that this envy that God will give me can lead me to a more positive response. (Amen!)

and by the way, fyi you also forgot NoNameMcgee

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans10:17

Hi , I began my walk with our Savior Jesus Christ by searching the book of Proverbs and then reading the 4 gospels; Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God." Get wisdom by searching the scriptures. "God's word is the seed and your heart is the soil." You need to get into the word of God and, "call on the name of the Lord and you will be saved."

If you wish to have people envious of you salvation, "Get Wisdom.", and how do you "Get Wisdom", by confessing Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. The moment you sincerely call on the name of the Lord will be the wisest day of your life. Before that your wisdom was "worldly wisdom", you were wise with the knowledge of the world.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will have "Godly Wisdom", and that my friend will make the world envious of what you have, more than you could ever imagine. Your family, friends and co-workers will take notice and say gee, what happen to theanointedsinner, because now you are "born again", you are a new creation "In Christ" you are now a Child of the "Most High God" and that will make the whole wide world envious, praise God.

"May the Lord bless you this day"

Proverbs 4:5-9
5Get wisdom, get understanding;
do not forget my words or turn away from them.
6Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you;
love her, and she will watch over you.
7The beginning of wisdom is this: Get a wisdom.
Though it cost all you have, b get understanding.
8Cherish her, and she will exalt you;
embrace her, and she will honor you.
9She will give you a garland to grace your head
and present you with a glorious crown.”
 
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theanointedsinner

Guest
for salvation, I'm willing to "fake it till I make it", if I have to

and thank you God for giving me the desire to "make it" in the first place
 
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theanointedsinner

Guest
I can be thankful that I don't have to ask statisticians to interpret Matthew 7:13-14, because they will tell me that the probability of being saved is so low, that it's impractical to be saved, and that salvation is impossible, and I mind as well forget about it, hence worldly wisdom

God is above worldly wisdom, in which we can cast worldly wisdom aside, follow the path of encouragement, and if we "raised expectation", we should thank God instead of boasting in ourselves, boast in God, as God gives me more desire, amen
 
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theanointedsinner

Guest
please explain as simply as possible, what's the simplicity of the gospel before I run into confusion through bible reading?

not just for me, but for many others just like me and more
 
Dec 12, 2013
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please explain as simply as possible, what's the simplicity of the gospel before I run into confusion through bible reading?

not just for me, but for many others just like me and more
It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
He that believes on the son is having everlasting life!!!!!