Not By Works
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In John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit (faith without works is dead) and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.
When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13).
John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing inHim would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
*So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.
Judas Iscariot is a good example of a self-attached branch that did not abide in the vine. As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out, "Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas." Two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit).
https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/john/john-15.html
When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13).
John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing inHim would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
*So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.
Judas Iscariot is a good example of a self-attached branch that did not abide in the vine. As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out, "Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas." Two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit).
https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/john/john-15.html
I believe that spiritual death is not the death of our spirit which God gave us. It is though, a death of sorts, in that we are separated from God and do not have his immediate influence on our mortal bodies. We are not dead, body or spirit, but we are dead to the full knowledge of God and his works, and his plan, and his salvation.
In order to overcome that death of knowledge, and separation, we believe in His Son Jesus Christ, and are born-again, and the Holy Spirit comes to our spirit, and gives us the truth of all things, and gives us access to God again, preventing the second death or eternal separation from God.
In order to overcome that death of knowledge, and separation, we believe in His Son Jesus Christ, and are born-again, and the Holy Spirit comes to our spirit, and gives us the truth of all things, and gives us access to God again, preventing the second death or eternal separation from God.
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Hello benhur, 
We are similar in how we define "spiritual death." Definitely, sin separates us from God and ONLY by the precious Blood of Jesus Christ are we cleansed and able to receive the Promise of the Father - the Holy Spirit and connect with the Father.
However, I also liken "spiritual death" to a cell phone that is not activated or is on 0% - we say, "My phone is dead" because it is unable to make any connection and has NO power.
It has to be "activated" which is when the Holy Spirit indwells us and then it has to be regularly "charged" because it gets drained of its energy through use and over time. We get charged up again through daily prayer, scriptures, singing hymns, worship and fellowship with other believers.
Being "spiritually alive" is wonderful - activated, fully charged, playing music and talking to God!
We are similar in how we define "spiritual death." Definitely, sin separates us from God and ONLY by the precious Blood of Jesus Christ are we cleansed and able to receive the Promise of the Father - the Holy Spirit and connect with the Father.
However, I also liken "spiritual death" to a cell phone that is not activated or is on 0% - we say, "My phone is dead" because it is unable to make any connection and has NO power.
It has to be "activated" which is when the Holy Spirit indwells us and then it has to be regularly "charged" because it gets drained of its energy through use and over time. We get charged up again through daily prayer, scriptures, singing hymns, worship and fellowship with other believers.
Being "spiritually alive" is wonderful - activated, fully charged, playing music and talking to God!
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Hello benhur,
We are similar in how we define "spiritual death." Definitely, sin separates us from God and ONLY by the precious Blood of Jesus Christ are we cleansed and able to receive the Promise of the Father - the Holy Spirit and connect with the Father.
However, I also liken "spiritual death" to a cell phone that is not activated or is on 0% - we say, "My phone is dead" because it is unable to make any connection and has NO power.
It has to be "activated" which is when the Holy Spirit indwells us and then it has to be regularly "charged" because it gets drained of its energy through use and over time. We get charged up again through daily prayer, scriptures, singing hymns, worship and fellowship with other believers.
Being "spiritually alive" is wonderful - activated, fully charged, playing music and talking to God!
We are similar in how we define "spiritual death." Definitely, sin separates us from God and ONLY by the precious Blood of Jesus Christ are we cleansed and able to receive the Promise of the Father - the Holy Spirit and connect with the Father.
However, I also liken "spiritual death" to a cell phone that is not activated or is on 0% - we say, "My phone is dead" because it is unable to make any connection and has NO power.
It has to be "activated" which is when the Holy Spirit indwells us and then it has to be regularly "charged" because it gets drained of its energy through use and over time. We get charged up again through daily prayer, scriptures, singing hymns, worship and fellowship with other believers.
Being "spiritually alive" is wonderful - activated, fully charged, playing music and talking to God!
Speaking of cell phones being dead, I need to charge mine up.. lol
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You can truly, whirl around and study and contemplate all you want, but when Jesus says that "all branches in me that do not produce fruit, God will take away, he is talking to those that believe in him, have been saved, and been attached his vine and receiving nourishment.
It does not matter that he is talking about the present or the future. He is now the vine, he will be the vine in the future.
What Jesus is talking about though, is you better produce or you will suffer future eternal consequences.
It is a parable, Jesus is the vine, His Father (God) is the husbandman. The branches in his vine, are those that believe and have been born again, otherwise they would not be in Jesus's vine.
If Judas was once a believer and was born again, then he too would be a branch in Jesus's vine. If he did not believe and was not born-again, then he would not be a branch in Jesus's vine, he would be a branch in another vine.
The parable is only talking to those who are in Jesus's vine. These branches apparently are expected to produce fruit for the KOG, and if they are not producing they will be taken away. Even those branches in Jesus's vine that are producing are going to be purged and pruned to produce more fruit. (Present or future).
There are many scriptures in the bible that tell us we better act or there will be eternal consequences. The problem with OSAS is that it can have a devestating affect upon our actions. There can be the thought that Jesus has done everything that needs to be done, therefore all I have to do is trust in him and I am OK. That is not true. OSAS is a false doctrine, according to other scriptures in the bible except a few that say it is by grace, which it is, but we must also act and walk in the good works that God has before ordained that we should walk in them. You have said this to me before so it should not be too far away from what you think.
It does not matter that he is talking about the present or the future. He is now the vine, he will be the vine in the future.
What Jesus is talking about though, is you better produce or you will suffer future eternal consequences.
It is a parable, Jesus is the vine, His Father (God) is the husbandman. The branches in his vine, are those that believe and have been born again, otherwise they would not be in Jesus's vine.
If Judas was once a believer and was born again, then he too would be a branch in Jesus's vine. If he did not believe and was not born-again, then he would not be a branch in Jesus's vine, he would be a branch in another vine.
The parable is only talking to those who are in Jesus's vine. These branches apparently are expected to produce fruit for the KOG, and if they are not producing they will be taken away. Even those branches in Jesus's vine that are producing are going to be purged and pruned to produce more fruit. (Present or future).
There are many scriptures in the bible that tell us we better act or there will be eternal consequences. The problem with OSAS is that it can have a devestating affect upon our actions. There can be the thought that Jesus has done everything that needs to be done, therefore all I have to do is trust in him and I am OK. That is not true. OSAS is a false doctrine, according to other scriptures in the bible except a few that say it is by grace, which it is, but we must also act and walk in the good works that God has before ordained that we should walk in them. You have said this to me before so it should not be too far away from what you think.
Hello benhur,
We are similar in how we define "spiritual death." Definitely, sin separates us from God and ONLY by the precious Blood of Jesus Christ are we cleansed and able to receive the Promise of the Father - the Holy Spirit and connect with the Father.
However, I also liken "spiritual death" to a cell phone that is not activated or is on 0% - we say, "My phone is dead" because it is unable to make any connection and has NO power.
It has to be "activated" which is when the Holy Spirit indwells us and then it has to be regularly "charged" because it gets drained of its energy through use and over time. We get charged up again through daily prayer, scriptures, singing hymns, worship and fellowship with other believers.
Being "spiritually alive" is wonderful - activated, fully charged, playing music and talking to God!
We are similar in how we define "spiritual death." Definitely, sin separates us from God and ONLY by the precious Blood of Jesus Christ are we cleansed and able to receive the Promise of the Father - the Holy Spirit and connect with the Father.
However, I also liken "spiritual death" to a cell phone that is not activated or is on 0% - we say, "My phone is dead" because it is unable to make any connection and has NO power.
It has to be "activated" which is when the Holy Spirit indwells us and then it has to be regularly "charged" because it gets drained of its energy through use and over time. We get charged up again through daily prayer, scriptures, singing hymns, worship and fellowship with other believers.
Being "spiritually alive" is wonderful - activated, fully charged, playing music and talking to God!
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NOW YOU ARE JUST BEING RIDICULOUS, and without even thinking through your Questions. It reminds me of this verse:
Romans 1:22 (NKJV)
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
The BIBLE DOES NOT CHANGE, AND NOTHING HAS BEEN ADDED. The Apocrypha was not added to the Holy Scriptures, because there was no prophet or the author DOING MIRACLES to validate it was of GOD, ALL THE OTHER BOOKS HAD BEEN VALIDATED IN THAT WAY. The Apocrypha, certainly can be read as a Commentary of the times, and on occasion, it can be valuable as a History Lesson, but Never as Holy Scripture. However, Earthly Languages DO CHANGE A LOT, which accounts for the NECESSITY of a NEW translation, WITH the Translation TEAM, daily Praying for Spiritual Guidance in Updating that Language, to the it is spoken today. That is what the KJV was, they wanted to update the Language from older English Translations. Some Newer Translations wanted to Put it into Street Language, the way English is spoken on the Streets by common people, such as GOD's Word Translation, and Bible in Basic English, and others like Holman's Christian Standard Bible, what it keep the Original Sound of the Bible in tack, while Actually TRANSLATING from the oldest Original Language Manuscripts they could find.
THE BIBLE IS NOT THE PRINT ON THE PAGE, IT IS WHAT IT MEANS BY WHAT IT SAYS, THEREFORE IT IS TRANSLATABLE, KEEPING THAT SAME MEANING IN WHATEVER LANGUAGE YOU CHOOSE TO TRANSLATE IT TO. So as long as you KEEP THE MEANING TRUE, translating it from the oldest original language manuscript, IT IS A VALID TRANSLATION, BUT NOT THE NWT, BECAUSE THEY ADMITTED THEY ADDED THEIR FOOTNOTES or COMMENTS into the TEXT. IF IT WAS JUST THE PRINT ON THE PAGE, EVERY ONE OF US WOULD HAVE TO STUDY THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE, the way it was spoken in the day of the author, and then HOPE our Minds Interpreted Correctly.
Here is why different Words in Translation CAN carry the exact SAME MEANING OF THE WORDS OF GOD.
For Example:
2 Corinthians 5:19 (ASV) (1901)
19 to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Corinthians 5:19 (NASB77) (1977)
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
2 Corinthians 5:19 Tree of Life Version (TLV) (2015)
19 That is, in Messiah God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them; and He has entrusted the message of reconciliation to us.
They are ALL saying that SAME THING, WHICH ARE THE WORDS OF GOD. I kind of like that expression "to wit" though.
Now I know, you will want to say MESSIAH GOD is a Different GOD than GOD the Father. NO IT IS NOT, IT IS THE SAME ONE AND ONLY GOD THERE IS. You have been LIED TO.
First of all, that Tree of Life Version is a Messianic Christian-Jew Translation. AND YOU KNOW THAT JEWS ONLY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD ONLY. So you had better do the Research on who Messiah actually IS:
Isaiah 43:10-11 (HCSB)
10 “You are My witnesses”— ⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration— “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. No god was formed before Me, and there will be none after Me.
11 I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Savior but Me.
Luke 2:11 (HCSB)
11 Today a Savior, who is Messiah the Lord, was born for you in the city of David.
Here is what everyone, except TWO of you JWs, actually believe about OUR Bibles
- The Scriptures
We believe that the entire Bible is the inspired Word of God and that men of God “were moved by the Holy Spirit” to write the very words of Scripture. The Bible is therefore without error (inerrant) in its original manuscripts. God has supernaturally preserved the Bible, and it is the sole and final authority for faith and life, providing encouragement, guidance, comfort and instruction for training in righteousness (2 Tim. 3:16-17& 2 Pet. 1:20-21).
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Sorry benhur but your false statement goes against all of Gods promises to those that believe and like BaptstBibleBeliever has said and almost the entire thread has told you continually, you are misinterpreting John15:2.
Your first mistake is you are assuming that a true Christian will fail to produce, that is a faulty assumption. After a sinner is "born again" they will grow and mature in the Lord and produce good works for our Savior.
Your second mistake is you do not recognize that God loves "each true believer" with "Agape Love", the same unconditional love that the Father has for the Son. And when God looks at each individual believer He see's the righteousness of His Son Jesus Christ, all of our sin's he will remember no more, Hebrews8:12.
The Church the Body of Christ is Jesus Bride and at the appointed time there will be a wedding and a wedding feast. All of the Body of Christ will participate in the wedding of the Lamb, excluding unbelievers, (John15:2).
Your self-righteous merit base "keep yourself saved" gospel is a counterfeit gospel. It is by Grace through faith in Jesus Christ we are saved, "Not By Works" lest anyone should boast. If you attempt to "mix works with grace", the bible say's "you have fallen from grace"
benhur you will die in your sin's if you do not turn away from your prideful save yourself fake gospel. What a shock you will have when Jesus' say's to you, "depart from me" Our salvation is based on God's "mercy", not on your performance, and you need to get that through your head. So far your counterfeit gospel is just filled with lie after lie after lie.
Your first mistake is you are assuming that a true Christian will fail to produce, that is a faulty assumption. After a sinner is "born again" they will grow and mature in the Lord and produce good works for our Savior.
Your second mistake is you do not recognize that God loves "each true believer" with "Agape Love", the same unconditional love that the Father has for the Son. And when God looks at each individual believer He see's the righteousness of His Son Jesus Christ, all of our sin's he will remember no more, Hebrews8:12.
The Church the Body of Christ is Jesus Bride and at the appointed time there will be a wedding and a wedding feast. All of the Body of Christ will participate in the wedding of the Lamb, excluding unbelievers, (John15:2).
Your self-righteous merit base "keep yourself saved" gospel is a counterfeit gospel. It is by Grace through faith in Jesus Christ we are saved, "Not By Works" lest anyone should boast. If you attempt to "mix works with grace", the bible say's "you have fallen from grace"
benhur you will die in your sin's if you do not turn away from your prideful save yourself fake gospel. What a shock you will have when Jesus' say's to you, "depart from me" Our salvation is based on God's "mercy", not on your performance, and you need to get that through your head. So far your counterfeit gospel is just filled with lie after lie after lie.
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Again, there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). *So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.
Those who produce nothing are not true converts.
If the branches truly have a spiritual and vital connection with Christ as the vine, then yes, they believe, have been born again and will bear fruit. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23). The branches that have a mere cosmic connection with the vine and bear no fruit at all, do not represent believers who have been born again.
Judas never was a born again believer, but was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) and was a good example of a self-attached branch that did not abide in the vine and was cut off.
Once again, in John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit (faith without works is dead) and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.
When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13). NONE.
John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not obtained or maintained by works. (Ephesians 2:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). The problem with NOSAS is that it can lead people to place too much focus on their actions/works as the basis or means by which they either obtain or maintain salvation, then faith is made void and the promise of no effect.
Those who produce nothing are not true converts.
If the branches truly have a spiritual and vital connection with Christ as the vine, then yes, they believe, have been born again and will bear fruit. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23). The branches that have a mere cosmic connection with the vine and bear no fruit at all, do not represent believers who have been born again.
Judas never was a born again believer, but was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) and was a good example of a self-attached branch that did not abide in the vine and was cut off.
Once again, in John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit (faith without works is dead) and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.
When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13). NONE.
John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not obtained or maintained by works. (Ephesians 2:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). The problem with NOSAS is that it can lead people to place too much focus on their actions/works as the basis or means by which they either obtain or maintain salvation, then faith is made void and the promise of no effect.
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I believe that God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are 1 God, I am a Christian that believes this nature of God.
I believe that the Messiah God is Jesus Christ, and it is through the grace of Jesus Christ that we can be saved.
However, I do not believe your last paragraph. I believe that the different translations of the bible and no originals has led our Christian communities in many different paths, hundreds differing as to how one is saved.
For instance, read my post #74,258 for the perfect example of what I am talking about.
I believe that the Messiah God is Jesus Christ, and it is through the grace of Jesus Christ that we can be saved.
However, I do not believe your last paragraph. I believe that the different translations of the bible and no originals has led our Christian communities in many different paths, hundreds differing as to how one is saved.
For instance, read my post #74,258 for the perfect example of what I am talking about.
In response to arguments over the Holy Bible, I do believe the Holy Bible is infallible and the true Word of God. I used to not know for sure, but that was over 25 years ago. I'm rock solid sure now that the Bible is absolutely TRUE. I don't need an original copy when I fellowship with the Author.
I do believe God has hidden Himself in plain sight - only with the Holy Spirit can the scriptures be understood and believed - blinded eyes opened and made possible to see God.
I do believe God has hidden Himself in plain sight - only with the Holy Spirit can the scriptures be understood and believed - blinded eyes opened and made possible to see God.
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