Not By Works

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part 2 of 2

See also “John 8:51: Obedience Should Save” on page 367 et seq. See “Metaphor Of The Vine” on page 343 et seq.

We saw again that Apostle John was told that those who obey the commandments (plural) have the right to the tree of life. (Rev. 22:14.) John writes:

Happy [are] the ones doing His commandments, so that their right will be to the tree of life, and they shall enter by the gates into the city. (Rev 22:14)(ALT)(GSB)4

We also saw Apostle John writing Jesus’ words to the Sardisian Christians. They are dead due to having “incomplete works.” They can prevent the Spirit leaving by repenting and obeying. Through John’s pen, Jesus tells them:

And to the angel of the assembly in Sardis write: ‘These [things] says the One having the seven spirits of God and the seven stars [i.e., Jesus is speaking]: I know your works, that you have a name that you live, and you are dead.

(2) ‘Become watching [fig., Wake up], and strengthen the rest which you were about to be throwing out, for I have not found your works having been completed before My God. (3) Therefore, be remembering how you have received, and be keeping [tereo, obey] it, and repent. Therefore, if you will not watch, I will come upon you like a thief, and you shall by no means know what hour I will come upon you.” (Rev 3:1-3 ALT)(Wycliff "works...full")5

John another time relays Jesus as saying that lukewarm works by Christians at Laodicea will cause Jesus to spew them out of His mouth.

I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. (16) So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. (Rev 3:15-16 KJV.)

Finally, we saw among the many verses that tied eternal life (zoe ainon) to obedience and works was the following words of Jesus recorded by Apostle John:

He that loveth his life loseth it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. (26) If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will the Father honor. (John 12:25-26 ASV.)

These passages from the writings of John quoting Jesus are but echoes of what we find in Matthew, Luke and Mark. John is repeatedly emphasizing themes of obedience.

Hence, besides John 3:36, these passages from John make the proposed translation of John 3:16 as about obedience appear far more sensible than translation tradition would suggest. This change, incidentally, will unite what scholars call the Synoptic-Jesus with the Johannine Jesus. It turns out there are no separate portrayals of Jesus in the mind of Matthew-Mark-Luke versus the mind of John. Rather, the translators haveimproperly given Jesus two doctrines and two personalities by erroneously translating John 3:16 in a manner which suits cheap grace doctrine to leave uncorrected.

However, we shall see that the leading evangelical scholars who dared write on this question begrudgingly admit pisteuo means obey in John 3:16. It is only the translators who, for some inexplicable reason, continue to hesitate to make this now compellingly-obvious correction.

Three Interpretive Issues
John 3:16 is the most commonly cited passage from Jesus to prove one is saved by faith alone. This faith is usually described as believing that Jesus is Lord and Savior. Or sometimes it is said that you must simply believe that Jesus died for your sins. (Stanley, Spurgeon.) Sometimes it is said you must also believe that Jesus resurrected.


Whatever is the belief one must hold to be saved, typically it is also claimed John 3:16 conveys the idea of a onetime belief. In fact, Charles Stanley in Eternal Security (1995) at 95 says the verb believes in the standard translation implies a one-time belief (that Christ died for your sins, id., at 33-34). Hence, such a one-time belief is supposedly all that you need to be saved. Therefore, it is allegedly irrelevant whether one repents from sin or not. Stanley says it is a good idea to change, but it only improves your fellowship with God. The Lord will supposedly save the disobedient believer anyway based on faith alone.

In fact, Stanley says your salvation is such a foregone conclusion once you sincerely believe Christ died for your sins that even if you for all practical purposes were later an unbeliever in thought and deed, your salvation is never in jeopardy: “Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy.” (Stanley, Eternal Security, supra, at 93.) Salvation is supposedly by faith alone, from start to finish.

However, there are three defects in the popular English translation of the original Greek which in turn feed these interpretations of the verse. (These defects also appear in the German Luther Bible of 1522.) The correction of these defects turn on answering these three questions:

Does the verb pisteuo translated in English as believes in the KJV meanbelieve or instead obey, comply, trust, etc.?

Is it pisteuo “in” Jesus or “for (unto)” Jesus” in the original Greek?

Is the verb form taken for pisteousin translated in the KJV as believes(the English simple present tense) instead in Greek a continuous tense meaning? In other words, is the meaning keeps on or continues to in front of whatever the verb means for pisteuo, i.e., keeps on obeying, etc., or keeps on believing?

Two of these three issues are readily apparent if you compare common translations of John 3:16, in particular the bolded portions below, on the left with those on the right.

source: https://www.jesuswordsonly.com/books/161-chapter-26-1jwos.html
Oh goody...you know how to cut and paste what someone else believes.......
 
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Good. You know how to use a Greek lexicon.

Mathew 7:23
23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Jesus said that those who practice lawlessness will be lost.
To practice lawlessness means that we do not obey God.
The lawless do not obey God.


I fear that YOU are peddling a false gospel.
And while we're here, do this....
Find out if the concept of salvation as we know it today was present in Jesus' time or if it's a new idea which started in the 1,500's.
Find out if Jesus cared more about your "salvation" or if He cared more about your entrance into the Kingdom of God here on earth.

How do you get in?
How do you get to stay there?

You seem pretty well-versed; I'm sure you could find out the above on your own.
Nice use of scripture out of context to push your working for drivel.....they were NEVER saved to begin with.....yet they believed they KNEW GOD and expected to ENTER based UPON their working for blather.......similar to what you espouse......tragically
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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I don't have a problem with the word MUST obey.
I'm sorry for those who do because apparently God is not Almighty to them.
All I know is what Jesus said over and over again. Here's one more verse:

Luke 6:46
46“Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? "

When God speaks, it's not a request.
It's a MUST.
So if you do not obey on occasion or for a period of time does that mean you do not believe?
 
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If a person believes they will obey. If they don't obey, it is because they don't really believe.

1 Cor. 3:
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

These are not words spoken by the Pope or some religious man, this is the Word of God, and it says I play a part in my own salvation.

Phil. 2:
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

2 Cor. 5:
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Rom. 11:
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Unbelief = Greek "apistia" means "Faithlessness" unfaithfulness (disobedience) :- disbelief. From the word "apisteo" to be unbelieving, disbelieve, or by implication to disobey:- to believe not.

"Because of unbelief (Disobedience) they were cut off.

Same for those "Christians" in Matt. 7 that the Christ warns us about.

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Iniquity Greek - "anomia" means illegality, violation of law or wickedness:- transgress the law, unrighteousness. from the word "anomos" means lawless, not subject to (jewish) law (by implication a gentile), or wicked:- without law, lawless, transgressor, unlawful, wicked.

GG 101 is not embellishing at all, she is doing what the Christ tells ALL His people to do. "Live by EVERY WORD of God".

But if a person doesn't "believe" the Word of God which became Flesh, then they won't obey the Word of God which became Flesh, just like the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time.
pisteuó: to believe, entrust
Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Definition: to believe, entrust
Usage: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.

He that BELIEVES on the SON is having everlasting life. <--the word OBEY is NOT in this verse no matter how many times you embellish the word of God like Satan did in the garden
 
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He doesn't need initials after his name to express a simple truth and remain valid. If he did have letters after his name, then you'd mock his scholarly credentials. Why not spread some of that "love" you were rebuking others for not having earlier, FranC?
Exactly.....same drivel Fran peddled........and a hint of the same verbiage.....especially the 1500 A.D. quote............
 
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Did Jesus say "You must obey or did he say, if you love me?

I think the problem is when we say "We must"
The problem for me is that if we focus on that, then when we do not it can and does lead to a mindset that focuses on getting it wrong, which leads to I must work harder to be forgiven, loved and accepted, such then leads to doubt as to whether we can are saved or not, which then compounds the situation.

It's like having a loan that has an interest rate that is compound.
The debt just grows and grows and we can never pay it off.

Don't get me wrong.
There has been many a time when I have done something that I did not want to do but I have and not necessarily out of love, but I have been obedient.

Yet there are times I have not done when I should have done.
That includes sins of the flesh.
Now that lead me down the route of working harder, I added the compound interest, but did God?

I don't think so.

That is why we should be quick to confess our sins.
It restores relationship with God that we blocked because we did not do.
Yet we know that the temple curtain was torn in two, the full debt was paid on the cross when Jesus said "It is finished" therefore we can come before God as we are.

Even as someone who did not do a must.
That's why Jesus intercedes for us.
No matter how they slice and dice they cannot get over the fact that SALVATION is secure based UPON FAITH ALONE....after that wee are REWARDED according to our service or lack thereof......they absolutely CONFLATE justification and sanctification to push, peddle and spew their false working for, self saving, anti-biblical dogma......

The NUMBER is PLENTEOUS that comes before the THRONE peddling the EXACT same thing the Cainologists in this thread are peddling...

A. They claim to know JESUS and call him LORD
b. They believe they have right to enter BASED upon the wonderful works done in the NAME of JESUS

Jesus states clearly that he NEVER knew them....the root of their problem was the MESSAGE they believed about salvation...which is....

FAITH (LORD LORD) blended with WORKS <---false gospel
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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I don't have a problem with the word MUST obey.
I'm sorry for those who do because apparently God is not Almighty to them.
All I know is what Jesus said over and over again. Here's one more verse:

Luke 6:46
46“Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? "

When God speaks, it's not a request.
It's a MUST.
MUST OBEY IS ROBBING JESUS OF THE GLORY THAT BELONGS TO HIM, FOR THE WORK HE HAS DONE IN YOU.

Philippians 1:6 (NIV)
6 being confident of this, that HE who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.


PAUL DID NOT MAKE THAT MISTAKE:

Romans 7:18 (HCSB)
18 For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it.

Galatians 2:20 (CSBBible)
20 and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Yeah. Problem is that you used a bad analogy...
We MUST change the oil in our cars every now and then or they die.
oh Fran, lol, that is exactly what he meant - read it again:

his false gospel portrays NEITHER...........nor does a gospel that peddles a salvation that can be lost or must be maintained by man like a car needing the oil changed every xxxx thousand miles.......
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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Any reason why you stopped at v11?

What about the next verses

1 Corinthians 3:12-16
12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
I can't win for losing with you guys, I post more scriptures to make a biblical point and the post is too long, I post less, and I am omitting scriptures.

But thanks for adding the verses.

Not everyone who says Lord, Lord, is a temple of God.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
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It doesn't say it all.

In fact it's out of kilter.

Look at what was said.

If a person believes they will obey.
How can a person believe they will obey?
You either obey or not.
So there is no believing you will will obey.
Abram obeyed because he believed, he didn't believe he would.
So let's ask the question.
"What if you don't believe or do not obey?

Did Abram fully believe and obey?

Genesis 20:1-7

Abraham and Abimelech
1 And Abraham journeyed from there to the South, and dwelt between Kadesh and Shur, and stayed in Gerar. 2 Now Abraham said of Sarah his wife, “She is my sister.” And Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah.
3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, “Indeed you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is a man’s wife.”
4 But Abimelech had not come near her; and he said, “Lord, will You slay a righteous nation also? 5 Did he not say to me, ‘She is my sister’? And she, even she herself said, ‘He is my brother.’ In the integrity of my heart and innocence of my hands I have done this.”
6 And God said to him in a dream, “Yes, I know that you did this in the integrity of your heart. For I also withheld you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her. 7 Now therefore, restore the man’s wife; for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you shall live. But if you do not restore her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours.”

So given what you agree with.

If you don't obey is it that you do not truly believe or is it that you got it wrong?
Always with the word traps Billy.

I marvel how quickly you throw those Great Faithful servants of God under the bus to justify your religion.

John 14:
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Whose Words and Sayings Billy?

John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Do we just listen to a few of His Word's after He became Flesh? Or do we do as He says. "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD of God", the Word which became Flesh.

The difference between the "Ministers of Righteousness" Paul speaks of, and Abraham is They both "believe" in God, but only one loves God.

How can we know who those following these "Ministers of Righteousness" are? Those who call Him Lord, Lord, but live in Lawlessness.

Did Abraham, David, or Sampson continue to "live in lawlessness"? Or did they fall in sin, repent, and bring forth works worthy of repentance..

Did any of them create their own High Days?? Create images of God in the likeness of man? Reject God Word's outright, or rejected His correction when He corrected them.

When they were corrected, how many of the Faithful servants of God refuse to listen?

I see you always condemning Abraham and David for sin, but you never ever even once point out their "Faithfulness" to God, their humbleness and obedience towards God, their love towards God.

GG 101 certainly understands the reason for these stories. You might think about listening to her understanding of the scriptures, instead of arguing to defend you popular religion.
 
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Always with the word traps Billy.

I marvel how quickly you throw those Great Faithful servants of God under the bus to justify your religion.

John 14:
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Whose Words and Sayings Billy?

John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Do we just listen to a few of His Word's after He became Flesh? Or do we do as He says. "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD of God", the Word which became Flesh.

The difference between the "Ministers of Righteousness" Paul speaks of, and Abraham is They both "believe" in God, but only one loves God.

How can we know who those following these "Ministers of Righteousness" are? Those who call Him Lord, Lord, but live in Lawlessness.

Did Abraham, David, or Sampson continue to "live in lawlessness"? Or did they fall in sin, repent, and bring forth works worthy of repentance..

Did any of them create their own High Days?? Create images of God in the likeness of man? Reject God Word's outright, or rejected His correction when He corrected them.

When they were corrected, how many of the Faithful servants of God refuse to listen?

I see you always condemning Abraham and David for sin, but you never ever even once point out their "Faithfulness" to God, their humbleness and obedience towards God, their love towards God.

GG 101 certainly understands the reason for these stories. You might think about listening to her understanding of the scriptures, instead of arguing to defend you popular religion.
The tragic truth of your false dogma that has no power to save is rather simple at the end of the day....YOU conflate two covenants and you conflate justification with sanctification.....make no mistake....you peddle a false gospel and you absolutely cannot comprehend that JESUS was born, lived and died under the OLD Covenant which RATIFIED and brought online the NEW Covenant of grace.

This is the same error that ALL workers for, Cainologists and Pharisees make..the words of JESUS MUST be viewed in LIGHT of this truth which alludes you and ALL who peddle the same thing you peddle....

Your gospel has no power and at the end of the day is just like the chaff blown by the wind and the tragic truth....You will find this out one day...albeit too late and a single WORK short..........
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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I don't have a problem with the word MUST obey.
I'm sorry for those who do because apparently God is not Almighty to them.

apparently people who don't believe God is able to cause His will to be done, to bring it about, and to finish the work He begins, don't believe God is the Almighty either.

When God speaks, it's not a request.
It's a MUST.
when God speaks, He creates. His word does not return to Him void but accomplishes fully His purpose.

:)
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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The tragic truth of your false dogma that has no power to save is rather simple at the end of the day....YOU conflate two covenants and you conflate justification with sanctification.....make no mistake....you peddle a false gospel and you absolutely cannot comprehend that JESUS was born, lived and died under the OLD Covenant which RATIFIED and brought online the NEW Covenant of grace.

This is the same error that ALL workers for, Cainologists and Pharisees make..the words of JESUS MUST be viewed in LIGHT of this truth which alludes you and ALL who peddle the same thing you peddle....

Your gospel has no power and at the end of the day is just like the chaff blown by the wind and the tragic truth....You will find this out one day...albeit too late and a single WORK short..........
Always your own words, your own doctrines. Same ole Decon.

"I'm already immortal gosh darn it, and I don't care what Paul, Jesus or God Almighty says".
 

posthuman

Senior Member
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God is the same and does not change His directions and commandments.
can someone provide me with a logical proof, able to withstand scrutiny, showing definitively that "is the same" = "does not change commandments" ?

Every living creature will be food for you;
as I gave the green plants, I have given you everything.
(Genesis 9:3)
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
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can someone provide me with a logical proof, able to withstand scrutiny, showing definitively that "is the same" = "does not change commandments" ?

Every living creature will be food for you;
as I gave the green plants, I have given you everything.
(Genesis 9:3)
Which of the 10 commandments has changed from Exodus through to the present?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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pisteuó: to believe, entrust
Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Definition: to believe, entrust
Usage: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.
i read through all 244 uses of this word in the NT and i only saw about 8 or 9 where i could legitimately replace the word 'believe' with 'obey' and the scripture still make any sense. but within the greater contexts those wouldn't make sense either. mostly they were phrases like ".. to you who have believed" where it was plausible that someone might describe the same people as "you who have obeyed"
-- not that it read to me as though that would be a legitimate or accurate translation anywhere, just that that would be a plausible thing to be written instead of what's actually written.