Not By Works

[TruthTalk]

I can give you an answer...

but I can't give you an answer that's mathematical.

...

Congradulations Maxwel, you just made the post number 75000;
24 minutes ago #75,000.

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maxwel
Senior Member
Apr 17, 20137,455574113

 

[theanointedsinner]

i'm not that old. barely into my 40's. but as the years have gone by, i find myself more and more often asking 'why isn't everyone a mathematician?'

is there such a thing as "linear Jesus"?

 

[theanointedsinner]

new vocabulary: work-teousness

 

[VCO]

Do you not know that two types of commandments have been abolished?
Leaving only the moral commandments...

Matthew 5:18 (NKJV)
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.


THE MAIN PURPOSE FOR THE LAW WILL NOT END UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY.

Romans 3:20 (HCSB)
20 For no one will be justified in His sight by the works of the law, because the knowledge of sin ⌊comes⌋ through the law.

 

[BillG]

Always with the word traps Billy.

I marvel how quickly you throw those Great Faithful servants of God under the bus to justify your religion.

John 14:
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Whose Words and Sayings Billy?

John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Do we just listen to a few of His Word's after He became Flesh? Or do we do as He says. "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD of God", the Word which became Flesh.

The difference between the "Ministers of Righteousness" Paul speaks of, and Abraham is They both "believe" in God, but only one loves God.

How can we know who those following these "Ministers of Righteousness" are? Those who call Him Lord, Lord, but live in Lawlessness.

Did Abraham, David, or Sampson continue to "live in lawlessness"? Or did they fall in sin, repent, and bring forth works worthy of repentance..

Did any of them create their own High Days?? Create images of God in the likeness of man? Reject God Word's outright, or rejected His correction when He corrected them.

When they were corrected, how many of the Faithful servants of God refuse to listen?

I see you always condemning Abraham and David for sin, but you never ever even once point out their "Faithfulness" to God, their humbleness and obedience towards God, their love towards God.

GG 101 certainly understands the reason for these stories. You might think about listening to her understanding of the scriptures, instead of arguing to defend you popular religion.

I was not condemning them. Never have.
I was and always by have done as you know full well I quote them as examples that we can get it wrong.

Because people like you come across as telling people we must be perfect, that we reject works and so on.

So get your bloody facts straight before you throw around slanderous comments and false accusations.

 

[BillG]

Why did you classify the condition?
If you do not obey does that mean you do not believe?

That is what I was asking you.

 

[Rosemaryx]

Morning all...My little heart op went well , praise God...My faith did not waver , my time alone I spent with Jesus , He kept me still , He walked me through , I trusted in Him every step of the way ...

When going through trials , God draws us closer , I walked down to the theater room with the nurse , I walked in and climbed onto the op bed , my mind was still , no shaking of the body , my LORD , my Savior was with me every step of the way...His word is true , He is who He says He is , the LORD my God was my Comforter ...

I did nothing , He did it all , from start to finish , He is with us until the end of age Matthew 28:20...

I obeyed , I trusted in Him , I leaned on Him , I obeyed when He said " Do not fear " ...How in the world can those who say they are saved doubt what our LORD has done for us on the cross , those who think they have to add to the grace of God will always think they have to achieve something , you do not , just let the Holy Spirit of God lead you into all His ways , and you shall be set free free ......

 

[mailmandan]

Heb. 12:
12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed. (changed)
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.

In Hebrews 12:14, the NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. Those who have been justified by faith are also sanctified/set apart/made holy before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Yet we also have progressive or ongoing sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain (present tense) from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor.

So becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one time event. The believer possess a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, a remaining active pursuit in practical, progressive holiness, in regards to our ongoing sanctification.

*So without justification, there is no sanctification. Our ongoing sanctification has no bearing on our justification. That is, even if we don't reach entire sanctification/sinless perfection in this lifetime (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ (Romans 5:1).

In Hebrews 12:15, we read - See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God. The NASB reads - comes short of the grace of God.. The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God. Not a loss of salvation here but a failure to obtain it.

Only those who have been saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8,9) qualify to serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

In regards to the believer's ongoing sanctification, in Philippians 2:12, we read - Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. This verse often gets misinterpreted by works-salvationists to mean "work for" your salvation, yet works salvation is not being taught here. The idea is to progress towards the finish or completion in spiritual growth and maturity in the process of ongoing sanctification. It should be noted that Philippians 2:12 makes it clear we are to be active, not passive, in this process. However, though we are active, we are not alone.

 

[mailmandan]

MMD, We pretty much agree. You just don't like my wording or the word MUST.
IF we're truly depending on Jesus for our salvation, why would ANY word bother us?
We MUST obey, then if we do or not is a totally different question. We won't be perfect till we die.

When you use the word MUST then the next question that comes to mind is, "so how much obedience does it take?" Is that salvation through faith in Christ or faith + obedience/works?

As to your question... NO ONE here that I've read so far says that we're saved by works.

Now people don't come right out and specifically say, "we are saved by works," yet they still teach it in a subtle way and others not so subtle. Here are some examples of statements from people below that I was previously in a discussion with who actually denied to me that they teach salvation by works, then afterwards contradicted themselves by saying...

"It is works of obedience and just not works of the law or works of merit that help save us."

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

The counterfeit Gospel is out there. What is the other Gospel? It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ.

And my answer would be:
"because I trusted in you as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation?"

That is the correct answer!

So does this mean I MUST NOT obey God?
No.
So where's the disconnect? There is none.

It's not about we MUST obey as if obedience is forced or legalistic for the believer. If we are truly born of God then we WILL obey, which does not mean sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time or that we are saved based on the merits of our obedience either.

 

[mailmandan]

Greek lexicon......you are reminding me of Fran.....all mouth and no substance......NO longer with us I might add

I remember sharing this statement below from a Roman Catholic with Fran (when she was still here) and she specifically told me, and I quote, "your Catholic friend is correct."

"We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc.."

Perfect example above of mixing faith and works and calling it salvation through faith.

 

[mailmandan]

Mathew 7:23
23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

*Notice that Jesus NEVER knew them (John 17:3) which means they were NEVER saved. CAUSE of condemnation UNBELIEF (John 3:18) EFFECT of unbelief/being a child of the devil -- PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS (1 John 3:4-10).

Jesus said that those who practice lawlessness will be lost.
To practice lawlessness means that we do not obey God.
The lawless do not obey God.

This is DESCRIPTIVE of UNBELIEVERS (1 John 3:4-10).

I fear that YOU are peddling a false gospel.

What do YOU believe the gospel IS and what do YOU believe it means to BELIEVE the gospel? (Romans 1:16).

Find out if the concept of salvation as we know it today was present in Jesus' time or if it's a new idea which started in the 1,500's.

This is the same type of argument that Roman Catholics make.

 

[GodsGrace101]

You are insisting on you are to KEEP you False Gospel, are you NOT?

The Ten Commandments were HIGHER than a MAN can KEEP them PERFECTLY. There purpose was to PROVE TO SINFUL MAN that he could not KEEP THEM, therefore man needed a MESSIAH to keep them FOR THE SINNER.

James 2:10 (CSBBible)
10 For whoever keeps the entire law, and yet stumbles at one point, is guilty of breaking it all.

YOU HAVE TO KEEP IT PERFECTLY OR YOU ARE GUILTY OF THE WHOLE LAW.

ONLY JESUS KEPT IT PERFECTLY, and then we can inherit HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

But INSTEAD you are Trying to KEEP the LAW PERFECTLY, just like a Modern Day Pharisee, you lowered GOD's STANDARD, to a level you THINK you can KEEP. Do you even say to yourself, "Look how Holy I am." Do not hurt your arm, trying to pat yourself on the back. You are a SINNER by GOD's STANDARD.


Romans 4:13 (GWT)
13 So it was not by obeying Moses' Teachings that Abraham or his descendants received the promise that he would inherit the world. Rather, it was through God's approval of his faith.

Galatians 2:16 (ASV)
16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:24-26 (ESV)
24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.

Galatians 3:10-11 (ESV)
10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”
11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”

I don't agree that the ten commandments were given to show us we could not keep them, although this is true. They were given for other reasons.

Other than that, I agree with all you've posted.

 

[dcontroversal]

Morning all...My little heart op went well , praise God...My faith did not waver , my time alone I spent with Jesus , He kept me still , He walked me through , I trusted in Him every step of the way ...

When going through trials , God draws us closer , I walked down to the theater room with the nurse , I walked in and climbed onto the op bed , my mind was still , no shaking of the body , my LORD , my Savior was with me every step of the way...His word is true , He is who He says He is , the LORD my God was my Comforter ...

I did nothing , He did it all , from start to finish , He is with us until the end of age Matthew 28:20...

I obeyed , I trusted in Him , I leaned on Him , I obeyed when He said " Do not fear " ...How in the world can those who say they are saved doubt what our LORD has done for us on the cross , those who think they have to add to the grace of God will always think they have to achieve something , you do not , just let the Holy Spirit of God lead you into all His ways , and you shall be set free free ......

AMEN........Imagine the faith and faces set like flint when Daniel was marched to the den of Lions or when Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah were being bound to be cast into the fiery furnace........

 

[Studyman]

I was not condemning them. Never have.
I was and always by have done as you know full well I quote them as examples that we can get it wrong.

Because people like you come across as telling people we must be perfect, that we reject works and so on.

So get your bloody facts straight before you throw around slanderous comments and false accusations.

I don't think you are being purposefully dishonest here, I think you are angry for the same reason the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time got angry.

My arguments have always been about God's Words. Just as the Christ's argument against the Mainstream Preachers of His time were about God's Words.

The Christ, who you claim has made you immortal, says "Be ye perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect" and you are silent.

But when a person quotes His Word's to you, all the sudden we are slanderous and "People like me are always coming across as telling people we must be perfect".

That is not the goal of todays religions, but it is the goal of the Gospel of Christ. As His Words, both as the Word of God, and as the Man Jesus points out. Of course if you are convinced you are "already saved, already immortal" then why bother, right?

God SAID HE blessed Abraham because Abraham obeyed Him. God said this, not me. But you are compelled to find the one little mistake he made to justify your religion, instead of showing others the great the Love and respect he showed the Father which paved the way for all who would have the "Faith of Abraham". For us to say "I want to be like Abraham, not because he lived his live rejecting God's Words, because it is a lie to say he did, but because he "offered himself a living sacrifice to God" in respect and obedience.

I'm not here to fight or argue. I'm here to point out the glaring fact that much of todays religions have rejected and omitted many of the Christ's Words, just as the Mainstream preachers of Christ's time omitted much of God's Words. They "thought" they were saved, but they were not.

If you are unwilling, as were the preachers of His Time, to SEE, not the mistakes God's Servants made in the examples He created for our admonition, but your own religion which transgresses the Commandments of God, then how are you any different than those who killed the Christ?

If we can't accept and deny our own religious traditions which mock God, then how can we condemn the Pharisees who did the exact same thing?

This is the reason for God's Sabbaths Billy. This is the reason the "Ministers of Righteousness" Paul spoke of preaches so hard against obedience to God's instructions.

Is. 58:
6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed (deceived) go free, and that ye break every yoke? (Deception)
7 Is it not to deal thy bread (Truth) to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him (Not use him as an excuse for your own sin) and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

It's too bad men are more interested in preserving their own ancient religious traditions, that letting God's Words, all of them, direct our footsteps. Just an honest discussion about scriptures, that is all I ever wanted on this site.

 

[GodsGrace101]

oh?
were they jots? tittles?
what happened?
what happened to what you said here?

PH,
Im not here to teach anyone.
But apparently you don't seem to know that two types of law have been abolished.

Have you brought any lambs to be sacrificed lately?
Were you Bethrothed to your wife an entire year before you were married?
After your baby was born, was your wife purified?

Instead of sarcasm it would be nice to have a conversation.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I don't think you are being purposefully dishonest here, I think you are angry for the same reason the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time got angry.

My arguments have always been about God's Words. Just as the Christ's argument against the Mainstream Preachers of His time were about God's Words.

The Christ, who you claim has made you immortal, says "Be ye perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect" and you are silent.

But when a person quotes His Word's to you, all the sudden we are slanderous and "People like me are always coming across as telling people we must be perfect".

That is not the goal of todays religions, but it is the goal of the Gospel of Christ. As His Words, both as the Word of God, and as the Man Jesus points out. Of course if you are convinced you are "already saved, already immortal" then why bother, right?

God SAID HE blessed Abraham because Abraham obeyed Him. God said this, not me. But you are compelled to find the one little mistake he made to justify your religion, instead of showing others the great the Love and respect he showed the Father which paved the way for all who would have the "Faith of Abraham". For us to say "I want to be like Abraham, not because he lived his live rejecting God's Words, because it is a lie to say he did, but because he "offered himself a living sacrifice to God" in respect and obedience.

I'm not here to fight or argue. I'm here to point out the glaring fact that much of todays religions have rejected and omitted many of the Christ's Words, just as the Mainstream preachers of Christ's time omitted much of God's Words. They "thought" they were saved, but they were not.

If you are unwilling, as were the preachers of His Time, to SEE, not the mistakes God's Servants made in the examples He created for our admonition, but your own religion which transgresses the Commandments of God, then how are you any different than those who killed the Christ?

If we can't accept and deny our own religious traditions which mock God, then how can we condemn the Pharisees who did the exact same thing?

This is the reason for God's Sabbaths Billy. This is the reason the "Ministers of Righteousness" Paul spoke of preaches so hard against obedience to God's instructions.

Is. 58:
6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed (deceived) go free, and that ye break every yoke? (Deception)
7 Is it not to deal thy bread (Truth) to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him (Not use him as an excuse for your own sin) and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

It's too bad men are more interested in preserving their own ancient religious traditions, that letting God's Words, all of them, direct our footsteps. Just an honest discussion about scriptures, that is all I ever wanted on this site.

Write me since I can't pm you.
[email protected]

 

[GodsGrace101]

Matthew 5:18 (NKJV)
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.


THE MAIN PURPOSE FOR THE LAW WILL NOT END UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY.

Romans 3:20 (HCSB)
20 For no one will be justified in His sight by the works of the law, because the knowledge of sin ⌊comes⌋ through the law.

Do a study on which laws have been abolished.

I get resistance when I say we're to follow the law.
I get resistance when I state two types of law have been abolished.
And you're the one who seems to love to give unasked for lessons.

Study up on the above.

 

[GodsGrace101]

That is what I was asking you.

Yes.
If you do not obey God it means you do not believe in Him.
Luke 6:46
"why do you call Me Lord, Lord, and do not do what I say?"

 

[gb9]

Do a study on which laws have been abolished.

I get resistance when I say we're to follow the law.
I get resistance when I state two types of law have been abolished.
And you're the one who seems to love to give unasked for lessons.

Study up on the above.

study this- law / command keeping does not save.

you and knows nothing man can p.m. all you want about how well you keep the law, and we are reprobate.

but, nothing changes this - not by works, not under the Law, not of yourself, a gift of God.

 

[gb9]

oh, and I asked knows nothing man for this, and never got it-

produce a translation that defines the greek word for law ( nomos ) as purely plural , then your claims about half a dozen different laws will have some merit.