Not By Works

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TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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Fran, like normal you misdirect instead of dealing with the post I made....my Jesus finishes and completes the work of faith he begins....yours does not or cannot....which is it?
Quote: God'sGrace101
"How do YOU represent Jesus?
By saying that we're saved no matter what "after walking down some isle?"

Hi decon, Dr. Luke the author of "The Gospel of Luke", was the companion of the Apostle Paul on his missionary journey for his 2nd trial before Caesar Augustus; There are references in the book of Acts to Luke being there as Paul's companion and to record all of the events that happened in the book of Acts while on Paul's journey to Rome; but Dr. Luke's "name" is never mentioned. Why is Dr. Luke's name not mentioned?

Biblical scholars believe it was Dr. Luke's humble attitude before his Savior Jesus Christ that prevented Luke from being in the lime light for his noble contribution to the "Book of Acts."

And then along comes weak in the faith people like God'sGrace101 that say Christians who say; quote, "we are saved no matter what after walking down some isle", what Christian on God's green earth is ever gonna say that? It's a shame and a disgrace to the "Power of God" to think that God cannot complete His work of salvation in our life. What God began in our life He will bring to completion and glorification.

We are saved by grace, "Not By Works."
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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OOP above, my post #77,897 : UNDERSTAND should be the fifth word. And the first word on line two should be YOUR. Sorry!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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We have MADE THIS POINT OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

SALVATION HAPPEN THE MOMENT YOU REPENT AND RECEIVE JESUS AS LORD, MEANING MASTER.

SANCTIFICATION OF THE BODY IS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT THING ALL TOGETHER.

Titus 3:5-8 (HCSB)
5 He saved us— not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 He poured out this ⌊Spirit⌋ on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.
8 This saying is trustworthy. I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed God might be careful to devote themselves to good works. These are good and profitable for everyone.
Cainologists has no concept of the fact that being justified and sanctified are two completely different applications of the word....
Quote: God'sGrace101
"How do YOU represent Jesus?
By saying that we're saved no matter what "after walking down some isle?"

Hi decon, Dr. Luke the author of "The Gospel of Luke", was the companion of the Apostle Paul on his missionary journey for his 2nd trial before Caesar Augustus; There are references in the book of Acts to Luke being there as Paul's companion and to record all of the events that happened in the book of Acts while on Paul's journey to Rome; but Dr. Luke's "name" is never mentioned. Why is Dr. Luke's name not mentioned?

Biblical scholars believe it was Dr. Luke's humble attitude before his Savior Jesus Christ that prevented Luke from being in the lime light for his noble contribution to the "Book of Acts."

And then along comes weak in the faith people like God'sGrace101 that say Christians who say; quote, "we are saved no matter what after walking down some isle", what Christian on God's green earth is ever gonna say that? It's a shame and a disgrace to the "Power of God" to think that God cannot complete His work of salvation in our life. What God began in our life He will bring to completion and glorification.

We are saved by grace, "Not By Works."
Oh I know brother......she talks a good game, but at the end of a day peddles a self saving dogma that devalues Christ, his power and promises....!
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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What loopholes ?

See if you can answer this without misrepresentations .

Here is what I'm putting on the table .

1) Pisteuo is the Greek word used 248 times in the NT .
This of course written and used in the Greek NT and has been translated in the English Bible (KJV) broken down as follows using Strong:
believe (239x), commit unto (4x), commit to (one's) trust (1x), be committed unto (1x), be put in trust with (1x), be commit to one's trust (1x), believer (1x). No problem with this one...
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Gotta love these new Cainologists and Salvation losers.....what a shame and sham....it must be a bad deal....having no real faith nor hope other than the type of hope one has when they buy a lottery ticket and HOPE THEY WIN....or how tragic it must be to serve a supposed god that is so weak and inept that he cannot keep you saved and or finish the work he began in you.........

The Jesus of the bible is none of the above....He saves completely and to the uttermost, he keeps you by his power, he begins, finishes and completes the work of faith he began in us and for sure he gives the IRREVOCABLE gift of eternal life unto ALL that have actually exercised a child like saving faith......He never leaves us or forsakes us and will indeed leave the 99 to find the 1 that went astray....Sealed by the Spirit of promise unto the day of redemption the trust we have is a confident expectation of something GUARANTEED.....too bad the workers for, Cainologists and salvation losers willing place themselves into the the MANY grouping that believe in their minds that they KNOW JESUS AS LORD and fully expect to enter based upon what they have done, instead of what HE HAS DONE!
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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What loopholes ?

See if you can answer this without misrepresentations .

Here is what I'm putting on the table .

2) todays church world has been decieved by the mistranslatied words believe , believer , and believing .
This is the crux of your error because how do you know it is mistranslated? You are basing yours probably not to Strong or Vines to include Thayer. Let me check if the two had to say what you are repeating. For the record, I will have to:

Strongs says:
πιστεύω pisteúō, pist-yoo'-o; from G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):—believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=g4100

Vines Dictionary says:
Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words
Belief, Believe, Believers
A — 1: πιστεύω
(Strong's #4100 — Verb — pisteuo — pist-yoo'-o )
"to believe," also "to be persuaded of," and hence, "to place confidence in, to trust," signifies, in this sense of the word, reliance upon, not mere credence. It is most frequent in the writings of the Apostle John, especially the Gospel. He does not use the noun (see below). For the Lord's first use of the verb, see John 1:50 . Of the writers of the Gospels, Matthew uses the verb ten times, Mark ten, Luke nine, John ninety-nine. In Acts 5:14 the present participle of the verb is translated "believers." See COMMIT , INTRUST , TRUST.

A — 2: πείθω
(Strong's #3982 — Verb — peitho — pi'-tho )
"to persuade," in the Middle and Passive Voices signifies "to suffer oneself to be persuaded," e.g., Luke 16:31 ; Hebrews 13:18 ; it is sometimes translated "believe" in the RV, but not in Acts 17:4 , RV, "were persuaded," and Acts 27:11 , "gave (more) heed;" in Acts 28:24 , "believed." See AGREE , ASSURE , OBEY , PERSUADE , TRUST , YIELD.

Note: For apisteo, the negative of No. 1, and apeitheo, the negative of No. 2, see DISBELIEVE , DISOBEDIENT.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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What loopholes ?

See if you can answer this without misrepresentations .

Here is what I'm putting on the table .


3) the Strongs gives the disclaimer ," pisteuo means NOT just to believe . And defines pisteuo as committed to committed unto , reliance upon , trusting unto .
Where do Strong says “not just to believe”. Please cite your references and let’s do comparing spiritual thing with spiritual. 2 Cor 2: 13
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
3,337
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What loopholes ?

See if you can answer this without misrepresentations .

Here is what I'm putting on the table .



4) The Vines defines pisteuo as ," a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. Producing a full acknowledgement of God's revelation of truth ."

None of this is my opinion , but I absolutely support these definitions by scholars more qualified than both of us .

So tell me about these loopholes you would have to force yourself to pummel me with . You not only misreprebting me , your misrepresenting yourself also .
Actually Vine is only giving his understanding base on John 1:12 and 2 Corinthians 5:7. Now your error most part is that to make me believe his definition of pisteou in your No. 4 that personal surrender will produce a full acknowledgment of God’s revelation of truth. As per Vines, in reference to “man element in faith in it’s relation to the invisible God are brought out in the use of this noun (pistis) and the verb pisteou and they are (1) a firm conviction, producing a full acknowledgment of God’s revelation of truth e.g. 2 Thes. 2:11-12…” Chopping off Vines firm conviction misconvey the very first definition of Vine. Personal surrender on the other hand is a mistake for Vine though Vine did used the KJV and he did nothing said about the translation was at fault. As said, there was no statement of Vines about mistranslations which you are trying to project though Vine and you are very confusing. Is this not a kind of deception?

https://books.google.com.ph/books?i...=is pisteou means personal surrender?&f=false
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Where do Strong says “not just to believe”. Please cite your references and let’s do comparing spiritual thing with spiritual. 2 Cor 2: 13
His whole false premise is based upon that one bogus statement........it is just another vanilla twist self saving false dogma that has been based on ignorance of the word and simple belief in and of itself.......

He that believes on the Son is having everlasting life is simple enough....

So is....

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Many a fool has overcomplicated the simplicity found in Christ and in so doing turned the grace of God and free irrevocable gift of God into a self saving anti biblical farce......this "faithing crap" is one such case!

crap1
/krap/
SLANG
noun
  1. something of extremely poor quality.

  2. verb
  1. talk at length in a foolish or boring way.
adjective
BRITISH
  1. 1.
    extremely poor in quality
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Actually Vine is only giving his understanding base on John 1:12 and 2 Corinthians 5:7. Now your error most part is that to make me believe his definition of pisteou in your No. 4 that personal surrender will produce a full acknowledgment of God’s revelation of truth. As per Vines, in reference to “man element in faith in it’s relation to the invisible God are brought out in the use of this noun (pistis) and the verb pisteou and they are (1) a firm conviction, producing a full acknowledgment of God’s revelation of truth e.g. 2 Thes. 2:11-12…” Chopping off Vines firm conviction misconvey the very first definition of Vine. Personal surrender on the other hand is a mistake for Vine though Vine did used the KJV and he did nothing said about the translation was at fault. As said, there was no statement of Vines about mistranslations which you are trying to project though Vine and you are very confusing. Is this not a kind of deception?

https://books.google.com.ph/books?id=AvH3CQAAQBAJ&pg=PA620&lpg=PA620&dq=is+pisteou+means+personal+surrender?&source=bl&ots=cRcT4qByrt&sig=8P07InCjINxhcBPShmvQpnFKuGo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjqtqSXuorfAhUYQd4KHbYuC8MQ6AEwEXoECAMQAQ#v=onepage&q=is pisteou means personal surrender?&f=false
As deceptive as one can be!!
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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HBG. Pa. USA
I have been through them all.....tums, rolaids, gaviscon, zantac, pepcid, prilosec, prevacid, protinix etc.....NEXIUM works......the rest not so much
After finding why we need such a regiment A Dietitian would be the next prescription. A proper diet does wonders in eliminating a need for such .
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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I only discuss scripture with those who can prove they've faithed into Him . Sorry , I just haven't been following your understandings closely enough .
did you happen to read this post -- re: Romans 14:1 -- ?

this thread moves really quickly. i haven't kept up with the conversation that you've been having here, but i noticed you've been at odds with most of the people posting - it seems to me like 'grabbing a dog by the ears' ((re: Proverbs 26:17)) so i have tried to stay out of it. i do remember commenting to VCO something about just because Stanford has professors with liberal political views doesn't mean an education there is worthless, but other than that it's just too much going on that i can't keep up with properly so i've been avoiding the whole thing.

so, read the post i made some 30 pages back now, that i linked to up there. i don't know what you will consider 'proof' to you of immersion into Him, except that the Lord says the world should know we belong to Him by our love for each other. ((hmm how we doin??)) - but maybe if you read what i broke down about Romans 14:1, and agree, you would be willing to set aside the not-going-anywhere-argument you are engaged in here and look into the close of Matthew 17 with me?
what if i start a new thread dedicated to that passage? i would like to talk about it; i would like to hear what others have to say about what things are found in it. i've listened to every sermon on sermonaudio that is tagged with these verses now ((there are only about a dozen or less! and not a single one on v.26??)) and i find most of them severely lacking in teaching quality, tho 1 or 2 do make an effort to relate it to the greater context and draw out a couple interesting points. i really think there is a lot there, tho, more than we could express in 100,000 words and 40 hours of lecture. so i'm surprised that i i am so far almost completely unable to get anyone to read it and engage in discussion about it.


what about that?
i'm not your enemy. i just want to study & discuss the Bible, to understand how it testifies of and glorifies the work & person of Christ, in order to grow in knowledge of Him. because He is life, because knowledge of Him is life, because His words are life.


thanks
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
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Morning all...
This is for those who are having trouble understanding the simple word believe...

John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Revelation 22:18-21
18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints.
Amen.

1 Corinthians 14:33
33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

Some posters on here are very confused , and will cause babes in Christ confusion , may the LORD our God protect them ...
Young ones in our LORD , when you read the word BELIEVE in your bible , that is what it means , to believe , nothing more , nothing less , believe in the LORD Jesus Christ with all your heart , mind , soul and the strength that comes from the Holy Spirit inside you , in Jesus precious name Amen...xox...
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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Cainologists has no concept of the fact that being justified and sanctified are two completely different applications of the word....


Oh I know brother......she talks a good game, but at the end of a day peddles a self saving dogma that devalues Christ, his power and promises....!
Just came across this article on the internet. It explains why there is so much disagreements about faith vs works. There is a problem with the Greek language expressing Hebrew concepts. Paul and James struggled to do this. Hopefully this will give you a better understanding about why the disagreements.

Do Paul and James Disagree About “Faith”?
By Dr. Yeshaya Gruber
October 22, 2018

The question of “faith vs. works” has often baffled—and even enraged—biblical interpreters. Different Christian groups (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, etc.) proclaim different views, sometimes fighting with each other over the correct interpretation. All of them contrast their own position with the “old” Jewish way of thinking. So where does all this conflict and confusion come from?

An apparent contradiction lies at the root of the controversy. Saul/Paul of Tarsus writes, “For we hold that one is justified by faith (πίστις; pistis) apart from works of the Law” (Romans 3:28, ESV; cf. Rom 5:1; Gal 2:16, 3:11, 3:24). But then Jacob/James of Jerusalem says, “You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith (πίστις; pistis) alone” (2:24, ESV). Some Christian theologians take one side or the other in this “debate,” while others try to show that the apparent contradiction is not really a contradiction.

Yet for all the argument and discussion, one of the most important factors is often neglected completely. Both Jacob/James and Saul/Paul were actually first-century Jews who lived in a hybrid Hebrew-Greek environment. Like others in this situation, they struggled to express and discuss Hebrew ideas in the Greek language. Just before Jacob/James states that becoming “just” involves “works” rather than merely “faith alone,” he exclaims, “You foolish fellow, can’t you see that ‘faith’ apart from works is useless?!” (2:20). This outburst reflects the fact – difficult to convey in Greek – that the Hebrew word for “faith” (אמונה; emunah) means a lifestyle of steadfast reliability.

Saul/Paul was no less frustrated with his audience when it came to understanding the Jewish idea of “faith” – he even calls the Galatians “mindless” (Gal 3:1) with regard to this topic. In context, he was arguing that the way to be considered “just” is to live a lifestyle of steadfast reliability in the way of truth, and that this doesn’t depend on whether one is Jewish and follows the Torah of Moses, or is a Gentile and therefore not obliged to keep all the same commandments.

Both authors found themselves limited by the language they had to use. Each chose a different angle or tack in employing Greek words to express Hebrew/Jewish ideas. This created the impression of a major contradiction, one that would even cause religious schisms! Thankfully, today we have many tools for understanding the original Jewish-Greek context and decoding the deep meanings of such ancient letters.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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It is simple. I believe you believe PART of scripture but if you really believe what you say, then pray for His discipline for which ever of us is misrepresenting scripture..... in Him
It is simple

We believe God saved us completely
No we do not save our se


God promised the Israelites that they would enter the Promised Land. Yet those to whom He made the promise did not. God specifically affirms that He did not fulfill that promise in scripture because they lacked the faith to obey, Now you might say but this is the new covenant. But we are reminded three times in the NT not to follow the example of the Israelites with a very clear warning not to fall short of the promises of God. We receive God by a true and living faith that seeks to follow (be led) by the Holy Spirit. These are the true sons of God as Romans 8:14 indicates. It has NOTHING to do with saving ourselves. NOTHING. It does have to do with a true and living faith.
1. God never broke his promise to israel. The land is still theres. They are being chastened as we speak. But scripture is quite clear. God always keeps his promises.
2. Gods promise to Abraham was unconditional. He said I WILL, he did not say, IF YOU, then I WILL (it was a gift, abraham could never earn it)
3. Gods promise to mankind is I WILL, He did nto say IF YOU (insert whatever work here) Then I WILL (it is a gift, You can not earn i)

You want to think salvation is a reward to those who do good. Good luck,

Me? I will place my faith continually in God, whose promises do stand.
 
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I assure you that the people blowing themselves up and killing others believe their own version of the truth. They TRULY believe; it is just they are wrong.......It is incumbent on each of us to examine what ALL of scripture says and not trust in other men. I remind you the early church fathers did not believe what you claim (read A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers under Salvation), nor did those in the first 1600 years of the church age. If you can earnestly say that you are truly considering all scripture there is little else we can say except make sure you are considering all scripture. in Him
You know what is interesting.

You have the same gospel they do. Do good. Obey god (allah) , Follow his commands. And you might get to heaven.

True christianity is nothing like that. True christianity is God saying You can not do good enough or any amount of work to save yourself. So I will come save you.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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In your reply you're referring to 1 John 2:19.

I hope you know that John was very concerned with gnosticism invading the church.
When John said that some left because they were "not of us", he meant that they were gnostics and so they could not get along with true Christians.

Please study this. Gnosticism seems to be making a comeback.
We have a free will and we could leave God at any time that we so choose.

As to works....they are not necessary if we are not saved. Of course.
If we ARE saved, they become necessary because the same John said that faith without works is dead.
John told us who those people where, They were people who had denied jesus , and he said plainly if you deny Jesus, you are an antichrist, and if you claimed to be a part of the family of God and left the family. And now deny christ, You were never saved.

One does not have to be gnostic to deny Christ, the same application would fit for ALL who deny Christ. Be it gnostic or not.