Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Mar 14, 2011
54,800
2,691
113
I am truly new friend. I did not say you said that. I simply made a statement because there is a false dichotomy in the church that if you are called to live faithfully it is a works based salvation. The Bible makes the point over and over that faith is accompanied by works except in the most extreme of cases.....
This is another lie, See you sound just like that person who was banned long ago.

Just so you know. Teaching obedience is not considered works. You will not find one person here in CC or in any christian church that I have ever seen say this.

Teaching OBEDIENCE PROCURES or MAINTAINS SALVATION is considered works.

So if your going to make accusations against people. At least get it right. Otherwise you will just be another person who came in punching but quickly faded out because you can not humble yourself to the point you stop following what you have been taught (yes, far to many people make this same lie to say it is not a taught or learned response) and actually sit for a time and understand what is the truth about what people REALLY SAY
 
Oct 13, 2017
3,318
242
63
Just came across this article on the internet. It explains why there is so much disagreements about faith vs works. There is a problem with the Greek language expressing Hebrew concepts. Paul and James struggled to do this. Hopefully this will give you a better understanding about why the disagreements.

Do Paul and James Disagree About “Faith”?
By Dr. Yeshaya Gruber
October 22, 2018

The question of “faith vs. works” has often baffled—and even enraged—biblical interpreters. Different Christian groups (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, etc.) proclaim different views, sometimes fighting with each other over the correct interpretation. All of them contrast their own position with the “old” Jewish way of thinking. So where does all this conflict and confusion come from?

An apparent contradiction lies at the root of the controversy. Saul/Paul of Tarsus writes, “For we hold that one is justified by faith (πίστις; pistis) apart from works of the Law” (Romans 3:28, ESV; cf. Rom 5:1; Gal 2:16, 3:11, 3:24). But then Jacob/James of Jerusalem says, “You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith (πίστις; pistis) alone” (2:24, ESV). Some Christian theologians take one side or the other in this “debate,” while others try to show that the apparent contradiction is not really a contradiction.

Yet for all the argument and discussion, one of the most important factors is often neglected completely. Both Jacob/James and Saul/Paul were actually first-century Jews who lived in a hybrid Hebrew-Greek environment. Like others in this situation, they struggled to express and discuss Hebrew ideas in the Greek language. Just before Jacob/James states that becoming “just” involves “works” rather than merely “faith alone,” he exclaims, “You foolish fellow, can’t you see that ‘faith’ apart from works is useless?!” (2:20). This outburst reflects the fact – difficult to convey in Greek – that the Hebrew word for “faith” (אמונה; emunah) means a lifestyle of steadfast reliability.

Saul/Paul was no less frustrated with his audience when it came to understanding the Jewish idea of “faith” – he even calls the Galatians “mindless” (Gal 3:1) with regard to this topic. In context, he was arguing that the way to be considered “just” is to live a lifestyle of steadfast reliability in the way of truth, and that this doesn’t depend on whether one is Jewish and follows the Torah of Moses, or is a Gentile and therefore not obliged to keep all the same commandments.

Both authors found themselves limited by the language they had to use. Each chose a different angle or tack in employing Greek words to express Hebrew/Jewish ideas. This created the impression of a major contradiction, one that would even cause religious schisms! Thankfully, today we have many tools for understanding the original Jewish-Greek context and decoding the deep meanings of such ancient letters.
5 minute rule
There is a problem Paul and James struggled to do this. Hopefully this will give you a better understanding about why the disagreements. English being a convoluted language coming from a mixture of 4 languages mixed together doesn't have this problem. Other languages have very fixed rules and expressing concepts from one to another becomes difficult.
 
Mar 14, 2011
54,800
2,691
113
PS. The bottom line is that faith and works go together; this is what scripture teaches. Faith is the basis; works the evidence. Start with John 5:29. Let me know if you want more....
Yes I agree

True faith WILL produce works.

1. You do not say you trust someone and NEVER do what they say
2. You do not learn that the person you trust is ALWAYS trustworthy (because he never fails you and when ever you obey good things happen) only to stop trusting that person
3. Most importantly. Once we have faith, we are saved, anbd born again, and given the power of the HS to do good. Because we have experienced Gods love (we love because God loves us)
4. WHat is the basis of obedience? Love

5. So you can not claim a person who had true saving faith and experienced Gods true love many times, will just give that faith up and walk away in unbelief, It does not happen. It only happens when we trust humans, who continually fail us, and because of this, our faith is destroyed.
 
Oct 22, 2018
437
46
28
Morning all...
This is for those who are having trouble understanding the simple word believe...

John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Revelation 22:18-21
18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints.
Amen.

1 Corinthians 14:33
33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

Some posters on here are very confused , and will cause babes in Christ confusion , may the LORD our God protect them ...
Young ones in our LORD , when you read the word BELIEVE in your bible , that is what it means , to believe , nothing more , nothing less , believe in the LORD Jesus Christ with all your heart , mind , soul and the strength that comes from the Holy Spirit inside you , in Jesus precious name Amen...xox...
The Strongs says it doesn't , " pisteuo means NOT just to believe " . Your saying the best , most exhaustive , crossed referenced with all the top dictionarys , are wrong and you are right .

What are you qualifications in the Greek language that gives you the thinking your opinion means anything , much less can override theirs ?
 
Oct 22, 2018
437
46
28
Times up Bill . I at least appreciate the crumb of honesty it took to just walk away from this discussion without misrepresentations and name-calling .
 
Oct 13, 2017
3,318
242
63
You know what is interesting.

You have the same gospel they do. Do good. Obey god (allah) , Follow his commands. And you might get to heaven.

True christianity is nothing like that. True christianity is God saying You can not do good enough or any amount of work to save yourself. So I will come save you.
In reference to the post you were responding to the Muslims have the Koran. They as Mohammed said claim the angel Gabriel said the Koran was in heaven and he spoke it to Muhammad piece by piece. Looking at it and comparing it to the Bible several flaws are obvious that Muslims hate to hear.

First the issue of abrogation meaning later spoken verses replace earlier ones when they conflict. This is ridiculous for a perfect document coming down from heaven.

Second issue is it claims that the Gospels, Psalms and the Torah are from God but then has Jesus proclaiming he was only a prophet not God incarnate.

Third the Bible has been found to be completely accurate with archaeological digs in the cities mentioned in the Bible. By contrast the Koran only talks about 1 city and archaeological dig there proves the total disagreement with the Koran.

With these discrepancies the Koran is completely flawed. The Bible stands alone of all the books that have history written because it is 100% accurate.
 
Jul 31, 2013
20,564
2,845
113
First the issue of abrogation meaning later spoken verses replace earlier ones when they conflict. This is ridiculous for a perfect document coming down from heaven.
have you ever read it?
there are very obvious differences pre and post muhammed. abrogation at work :(
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
5,704
1,197
113
Times up Bill . I at least appreciate the crumb of honesty it took to just walk away from this discussion without misrepresentations and name-calling .
Sorry I didn't realise there was a time limit.

Some background .
Yes , The Father gave His Son , His Son gave His life for the sins of the world .
I understand Salvation is by Grace , through Faith .
I understand that nobody comes to Christ unless the Father draws or calls them to Him .

Without going into detail about specifics on those understandings are you in a basic agreement?

Can we start our discussion at this beginning stage where the Father is calling or drawing people to Christ ?
As John states

John 3:16-21
16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.
18 “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son. 19 And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil.20 All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed.21 But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.”
 
May 6, 2017
5,066
1,193
113
I only discuss scripture with those who can prove they've faithed into Him . Sorry , I just haven't been following your understandings closely enough .
Times up Bill . I at least appreciate the crumb of honesty it took to just walk away from this discussion without misrepresentations and name-calling .
would it be a misrepresentation to say that before you will discuss scripture with someone you need them to prove they are "faithing" enough ..... on some unannounced timeframe?
(all the while saying their lives and the lives of their households may depend on what you say.... but there is no such thing as a saved believer?)
No such thing as believing in Jesus . That word is a mistranslation . Do a little research . You and your households lives may depend on it .
No such thing as a saved believer .
 
Oct 22, 2018
437
46
28
Sorry I didn't realise there was a time limit.



As John states

John 3:16-21
16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.
18 “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son. 19 And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil.20 All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed.21 But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.”
What I really look at is the desire in which people want to know Christ better . Even today towards the end of my journey , if someone presents something that may give a better understanding of Him , I'm all over it , no hesitation .
 
May 3, 2017
1,226
507
113
57
The Strongs says it doesn't , " pisteuo means NOT just to believe " . Your saying the best , most exhaustive , crossed referenced with all the top dictionarys , are wrong and you are right .

What are you qualifications in the Greek language that gives you the thinking your opinion means anything , much less can override theirs ?
Jesus is my Master , and you Mr P are making me stronger in practicing not to become offended by dead man's bones...
 
May 6, 2017
5,066
1,193
113
What I really look at is the desire in which people want to know Christ better . Even today towards the end of my journey , if someone presents something that may give a better understanding of Him , I'm all over it , no hesitation .
But you have not demonstrated knowledge of Him or His word.
 
Oct 22, 2018
437
46
28
would it be a misrepresentation to say that before you will discuss scripture with someone you need them to prove they are "faithing" enough ..... on some unannounced timeframe?
(all the while saying their lives and the lives of their households may depend on what you say.... but there is no such thing as a saved believer?)
Yes it would ! I never said anything about " faithing " or fulfilling pisteuo " enough ."

I did say that fulfilling pisteuo " the surrendered life " had to be genuine . Only God and ourselves know if that's true .

The timeframe or process as I call it hasn't been discussed or presented by me yet , because I can't find anyone who agrees with what true NT saving Faith is , much less how it's applied , " pisteuo ."
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
5,704
1,197
113
What I really look at is the desire in which people want to know Christ better . Even today towards the end of my journey , if someone presents something that may give a better understanding of Him , I'm all over it , no hesitation .
With a wife and 4 kids I can't work on a time limit.

They come first.
And I really enjoyed date night with my wife last night. We had a meal while watching Highway to Heaven (no laughing anyone)

Sometimes we pray, discuss the Bible.
Chew the cud as we say over here.

Not wishing to be rude but her company far surpasses yours.
So I will respond when I can.

Bill
 
Oct 22, 2018
437
46
28
But you have not demonstrated knowledge of Him or His word.
So presenting pisteuo the most important word in the NT , and the knowledge of it's true meaning , supported by all the Greek dictionarys is not an acceptable demonstration . If that's not good enough to get your attention , nothing else I have to give will either .
 
Jul 17, 2017
2,538
1,499
113
I am truly new friend. I did not say you said that. I simply made a statement because there is a false dichotomy in the church that if you are called to live faithfully it is a works based salvation. The Bible makes the point over and over that faith is accompanied by works except in the most extreme of cases.....
You are conflating a true believers "position in Christ", which is Justification; with our "practice in Christ" which is our ongoing sanctification, "our daily walk with Jesus"

A works plus grace gospel is not supported by the bible neither did our Savior Jesus Christ teach salvation by works, "he who believes in Him is not condemned he who does not believe stands condemned already." (John3:18). If you think you are saved by good works, "justified by the law" you have "Fallen from Grace."

Good works are evidence of a true believer but they will not save you; we are saved "unto good works" not by them; a difficult lesson to learn for some.

God bless!
Phillipians3:9
and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.

Galatians5:4
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

John3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
 
Oct 22, 2018
437
46
28
With a wife and 4 kids I can't work on a time limit.

They come first.
And I really enjoyed date night with my wife last night. We had a meal while watching Highway to Heaven (no laughing anyone)

Sometimes we pray, discuss the Bible.
Chew the cud as we say over here.

Not wishing to be rude but her company far surpasses yours.
So I will respond when I can.

Bill
That really hurts Bill . Lol

I've been there , and completely understand . I'll keep an eye out for a reply to the post I last gave you at around 3 o'clock yesterday .

But just a warning , I'm flesh and blood and bleed when someone cuts me . I feel every arrow shot at me , and there's alot of them here . If that's all that's happening without any desire from anyone to know what I have to give , I'll move on . And that point is getting closer . Maybe the email i spoke of would serve you better . It's 30 pages .