Not By Works

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VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,967
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I didn't finish reading the above.
You misunderstand me too much.
I think I shouldn't reply to your posts....

No I read your POST.

I just want to KNOW how you get past all the ORDINANCES OF MAN and think you are being Obedient to GOD.

1 Peter 2:13-17 (NKJV)
13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.
17 Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king [President Trump].
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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Sorry you feel that way about me.

I didn't say you had chosen a different path.
I just gave expressed my thoughts on your post.

So obviously I don't obey the Bible.
I would have expected that from others but not you.

Thanks for your response out of love.
Hi BillG, not sure what happened between you and VCO on your discussion about Judging others. I do hope you guys will remain friends and continue to discuss the bible.

This verse of the Apostle Paul has always been a favorite of mine because unfortunately I have run into a few very judgmental Christians during my life time. The first thing I look for in a judgmental type of Christian is the old take out the log in your eye first before you try to remove the spec in my eye. Personally I find that Judgmental Christians lack empathy, and are very difficult to communicate with.

God bless you brother BillG

1Corinthians4:3-5
3)
I care very little, however, 'if I am judged by you or by any human court.' In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4) My conscience is clear, but that does not vindicate me. It is the Lord who judges me.5) Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.
 

YDo

Active member
Dec 9, 2018
151
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Decon and I have a fundamental disagreement on the Gospel of Christ. And this has been an ongoing disagreement. So we don't hold back much in our back and forth.

As far as your Question, I believe Jesus, the Word of God which became Flesh, cleanses us of our sins. As the Word of God, He promised that "After those days" He would forgive our sins Himself, and He would administer God's Laws on our hearts Himself. (Jer. 31: 31-34)

Prior to "those days" there was in place a Priesthood which consisted of Levites, who performed ceremonial, sacrificial "Works of the Law" for remission of sins (defined as transgressing God's Laws), and also they were anointed to administer God's Word.

Ex. 28:41 And thou shalt put them upon Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him; and shalt anoint them, and consecrate them, and sanctify them, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office.

These "Works of the Law" for the cleansing of sins were to be in force "Until the Seed should come" as Paul stats in Gal. 3. He was having trouble with a Mainstream Religion of his time which didn't believe the promise of the change in the Priesthood spoken by Word of God in Jeremiah and other places, and refused to accept that Jesus was this Word of God. So even though He had fulfilled many of the prophesies about Himself in the Law and Prophets, they did not believe He had become their High Priest, so they continued to further (their version) of the "works of the Law" given by God to Moses for the justification of sins.

Paul had quite a time with them trying to force their version of these "obsolete" Works of the Law on the gentiles and they were "bewitching" the Galatians as well.

As Paul teaches:

Rom. 3:
26 To declare, I say, at this time (After those days) his righteousness ( not "works of the old Priesthood) that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? (goats blood sprinkled on the alter) Nay: but by the law of faith.

Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.


28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (Given by God to Moses for the cleansing of sins until the Seed should come)

Decon believes the New Covenant wasn't the change in the Priesthood as the Law and Prophets teach, which is confirmed by Heb 7. He believes a religion which teaches this change in the priesthood also included the entire Law and Prophets. Even though Jesus Himself said He didn't come to destroy them, but to preserve them. This teaching is widely accepted in the religions of the land, but is not supported by all the Word's of the Christ.

Heb. 7:
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

The old priesthood was given Specifically to Levites, Jesus was from the Tribe of Judah, so the "Law" was changed so He could become our High Priest, even though He wasn't a Levite.

13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

The message of the Christ, the Word of God which became flesh from the very beginning to the end has been to "Repent, turn to God, and bring "works" worthy of repentance. This is what Paul taught both Jew and Gentile.

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

So I believe the Christ, which said: "Before Abraham was, I am" has been consistent throughout His Ministry and has kept His Promises He gave from the beginning. And that is to show Mercy to anyone who would listen to Him and "DO" as He says.

But this teaching was not believed in the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time, nor is it believed on in many religions which call Him Lord, Lord today.

Sorry for the long post, but I needed to answer your question clearly. Let me know if you have any questions.
I get it. Thanks for that protracted answer. The verses will likely help many in this question.

You two have been going back and forth for some time? Both steadfast in your individual belief about this question. Sounds like neither is going to give an inch. Why put yourselves through that repeatedly?
"Live your right"

In the end we could all be wrong and at the gates God says, 'SURPRISE!' :p
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
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I get it. Thanks for that protracted answer. The verses will likely help many in this question.

You two have been going back and forth for some time? Both steadfast in your individual belief about this question. Sounds like neither is going to give an inch. Why put yourselves through that repeatedly?
"Live your right"

In the end we could all be wrong and at the gates God says, 'SURPRISE!' :p
Of course you are right. It could all be for nothing. I think this is where Faith comes in. But If I can't believe in the All the Word's of the Christ for Salvation, then all hope is lost.

2 Tim. 3:
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Thank you for the gentle rebuke. I should have listened to the Word's of the Christ months ago in Decon's case.

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Thank you for actually reading the post and the gentle slap in the face :)

To my shame, you are absolutely right.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,262
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Hi forum, for those who are not sure about their "Eternal Security", the bible say's that these things were written so that "you may know", that you have "Eternal Life.", yep takes the wondering about your eternity away right now,
"True Gospel"


1John5:13
I write these things "to you who believe in the name of the Son of God" so that 'you may know that you have eternal life.'
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
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Yes, I can see how scriptures would get in the way of your religious tradition. You asked a question which was a trap, and I let God answer it for you. Of course you can't openly mock God and His Word's, so you mock those poor slobs who show them to you. Whatever you do, don't discuss the actual Word's of God when speaking about Salvation. And don't ever answer questions.
Again, you Scripture bomb knowing full well most people do not have all day to address them all.

How about this; Post one scripture at a time that you believe proves we have to do good works, or "suffer" to personally maintain our salvation, instead of a mountain that you know requires incredible amounts of time to sift through and answer.

That you were dishonest in your question to begin with.
Wow. Playing the martyr already. How typical.

You are already immortal, and you can't lose your immortality.
So long as Jesus remains immortal, so will we.

So honesty doesn't even matter.
Twice now you've call me a liar. And you have the gall to complain to me about "Christian love."

More trap questions, yet no answers.
You call them "trap" questions because, despite what you claim, you don't actually answer them. You simply post Scripture completely out of context. The questions I asked were personal, about your lifestyle, that didn't even require a Scriptural response.

It's like if someone asked you how do you get your hands clean and you answer, "Mark 7: 1-5", then call it a "trap" question, accuse the person of ignoring your answer, and claim victory.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
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And who is the One He sent? Is He not the Word of God which became Flesh? Did He not talk with Abraham and Moses?

Then why do you dismiss His Word's regarding this issue?
I didn't. They asked what works were required and Jesus answered them with simply "believe" in Him.

Why do you dismiss the fact that salvation is a gift, that you cannot maintain with good works, obedience, turning from sin, baptism, church attendance, or the litany of other requirements that Judaizers tack on to it?

Romans 5:1.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,967
4,585
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People like you and DC.

Google election, predestination and look at many websites.
Study Bible notes and so on.

Just so you know where I stand on the Predestination vs. Freedom to Choose whom we will Serve issue.

God Chose those before the Foundation of the EARTH, to be those HE KNEW would Choose the MESSIAH as LORD, meaning Master.

It has been my experience that when two sides of the Extremes of Christianity Bicker, the TRUTH Lies somewhere in the Middle of the Two EXTREMES.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
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Hi Budman, I believe we met briefly a while ago. You teach a clear and wonderful saved by grace through faith gospel and please don't stop. There is a very wide gulf between the saved by-grace through-faith folks, and the self-righteous man made religion peddlers as you know already.

The only person who can fill in that gulf of separation of course is our "Savior Jesus Christ", the babe from Bethlehem born in a manger, who grew in knowledge and grace and is now today "our" King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

God bless!
Thank-you. And amen, brother! :)
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
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*cough*

Colossians 3:3 & Romans 7:1-6 etc....
What a way to discard Scripture, just claim it as a verse that proves a doctrine that you don't like, then you can trash it.

Why not try believing your Bible instead, though you cannot without God's Spirit? God did in fact choose whom he wills to save based upon nothing good or bad in them, and saves none other. Deal with it.
When babies die, do you believe God also chooses some for heaven and others for hell?

John Calvin said "There are babies a span long in hell."
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
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You claim one's good works, or "fruits" prove if one is a true believer. And yet, unsaved people can do good works, even more so, than believers. Based on appearances, you would then have to declare them Christians because of all the good works they do.

Tell me, how many good works does one have to do to "prove" they are saved?

One a day, two the next?

If I gave the Salvation Army a dollar one year, two dollars the next year, three the next, would that indicate I am "growing in grace" and saved because of the yearly increase?

Many people point to their works as proof they're saved. Look at the example of such folks in Scripture (Matthew 7:22-23).