Not By Works

Budman · Dec 16, 2018

Yes, they were saved. The Bible says all who were there were believers. As I've said many times, God does chastise His children, even to the point of taking them home, but they can never be lost.

At the moment of conversion, one is saved forever. Even if they walk away later. They couldn't go to hell if they tried. If salvation is truly a gift, and grace actually unmerited, this has to be so.

Budman · Dec 16, 2018

lightbearer said:

Are you saying actual Christians cannot produce bad fruit? "Bad fruit" is sin. Do Christians sin? Do you?

The apostle Paul sinned, a lot, after his conversion.

In his own words: " For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." (Romans 7: 18-25)

Notice all are present tense.

For that matter, what of the murdering Moses, David and Paul? Drunkards Noah and Lot? Lying Abraham? Denying/lying Peter? Thieving Jacob?

lightbearer · Dec 16, 2018

Argueless said:

Speaking to the brethren Paul through GOD said,
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
(Gal 6:7-8 KJV)

He said this in the context of being there for one another when one transgresses. This is seen in verse one of the same chapter.

Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
(Gal 6:1 KJV)

Restore in respect to restoration; so as they reap everlasting life and not corruption.

Argueless · Dec 16, 2018

mailmandan said:

In Romans 6:16-22 it says that obedience leads to righteousness and righteousness leads to holiness and the result is eternal life.

We must obey the Gospel that we heard to lead us to a righteousness thru FAITH and this righteousness thru FAITH will give us the promised Holy Spirit (Galatians 3:14) and we will be sanctified by the TRUTH of the WORD (john 17:17) empowering us to live HOLY lives resulting to eternal life. (salvation)

SALVATION is a process according to the eternal purpose of God.

...His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. Ephesians 3:10-11

...To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is CHRIST IN YOU, the HOPE of glory. Colossians 1:27

So it is CHRIST in us and us in CHRIST, in His BODY which is the Church and of which He is the Savior. Ephesians 5:23

The Lord will not come to save us personally or one by one but He is going to save His BODY.

So how do we know that we are in that BODY?

...Whoever claims to LIVE IN HIM must WALK as Jesus did. 1john 2:6

...UNTO GOOD WORKS which He hath before ordained that we should WALK IN THEM. Ephesians 2:10

...And this is love: that we WALK IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you WALK IN LOVE. 2 John 1:6

...Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became THE SOURCE OF ETERNAL SALVATION FOR ALL WHO OBEY HIM. Hebrews 5:8-9

So if you are not WALKING in obedience to His commands then you are not WALKING in LOVE and not WALKING as Jesus did therefore are NOT IN CHRIST and if you're NOT IN CHRIST, you will not be saved by Jesus when He comes TO SAVE HIS BODY and God will judge you and throw you outside were there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Hebrews 5:8-9

lightbearer · Dec 16, 2018

Budman said:

No
Our Lord and Savior was speaking of false prophets he broadened the sphere to incorporate all who profess him yet were producing ill fruit; iniquity.

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(Mat 7:20-23 KJV)

Hevosmies · Dec 16, 2018

posthuman said:

Jesus tells of two men who went to the temple and prayed: one who boasted of the good he had done, and how others had done little or none; one who in shame had no answer to God but asking for mercy. one who came looking for approval, one who came looking for grace. the one who went home justified, Jesus says, is not the one who had works, but the one who didn't consider any of his works to be good - whether he had them or not.

the man who boasted says he had kept the law far better than the one who confessed his sin and looked to God for mercy.
what does this tells us about what exactly is "iniquity" in God's eyes?

in re: why, scripture says "so that no one may boast"

Pride is iniquity, among other things. Boasting = fruit of pride.

God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

Hevosmies · Dec 16, 2018

preacher4truth said:

Pardon me.

TruthTalk explained me well:

TruthTalk said:

lightbearer · Dec 16, 2018

Budman said:

Chapter six and seven's context continues into eight. Paul proclaims in verse two of chapter eight His deliverance from the Law of sin and death which he claimed to be in service to through his flesh in verse 7:23, 25. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Rom 8:4)

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
(Rom 7:22-25)

Chapter seven's use of the word mind is dealing with head knowledge; knowing the law and desiring to serve it because you know it is good and makes sense to you to do so. This did not work for Paul nor will it work for us. The only way is Jesus Christ.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(Rom 8:1-4)

Paul claims he had been Made me free from the law of sin and death. No longer in captivity to the Law of sin which which is in His members. HE HAS BEEN MADE FREE! That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. (Rom 8:2-4; 6:6,7)

Set free from the Law of sin and death. Our old man crucified with with HIM that the Body of Sin be destroyed. That Hence forth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin through Jesus Christ. Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
(1Pe 2:24 KJV)

preacher4truth · Dec 16, 2018

Budman said:

Well of course, yet that belief is via Christ, not inherent ability nor innate ability. Ephesians 1:19 for example.

Nor is it a gift if one believes it was extended to them because God saw they would make a choice for him. This is nowhere in Scripture, it is added to the Gospel and to Scripture. It is untrue.

None are saved via decision. James 1:18; John 1:13; 1 Peter 1:3; Romans 9:16. If they believe this and teach this then salvation was a reward, not a gift. It is Soli Deo Gloria and man gets no glory or any boasting in salvation, to say God saved them because he saw they would ___________ then it is merit, and reward, not grace. Note 1 Corinthians 1:26-31.

Now, let's get on with it, let us see you and others fight for man in this, for what he did, for deciding, because he chose, and we see many get angry over this, to make sure man "gets his due" while trying to claim it is all of God at the same time. It is unbelievable the blindness! God gets ALL the glory, man gets zero.

It's funny that others on here fight against God's determinism in salvation, mock it, ridicule it, belittle it, then turn right around and preach man's determinism being the clincher. Unreal.

You all need to think real hard while you're on here arguing against works salvation, arguing that man had nothing to do with it, when in reality some most certainly believe man had something to do with salvation because that is certainly what some are preaching. "God saw man would do ______ so he rewarded them for it." If you are given something because you did something it is no longer a gift, it is a reward.

Budman · Dec 16, 2018

lightbearer said:

That's rather ridiculous, as once again, Paul speaks in the present tense. I am, I do. Not, I was, I did.

When Paul speaks of being free from the law of sin, he means free of the consequences of sin - meaning eternal condemnation.

Of course, as Paul stated, we should not walk after the flesh and sin. Because the "Old Man" (our old, sinful nature) is not destroyed. If it were, we would never sin. But I do. And you do too. The Old Man will be destroyed at the moment we leave this earthly life.

We possess an old and a new nature. God judges us by the new. That's imputed righteousness. That's why God can declare that we are already holy, sinless, righteous, and seated with Christ in heaven.

Yes, we have been delivered from sin (God remembers our sin no more) and (the second) death. Just as Paul was. But that does not mean, while in the flesh, we will not sin. And if even a single sin is attributed to us, we have broken all of God's Laws and are forever lost because the Bible says that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. The Bible also says the sacrifice of Jesus will never again be repeated. So, either all of our sins have been forgiven - past, present, and future - or we are doomed if we owe a debt for even a single sin after conversion.

Budman · Dec 16, 2018

preacher4truth said:

Well of course, yet that belief is via Christ, not inherent ability nor innate ability. Ephesians 1:19 for example.

Nor is it a gift if one believes it was extended to them because God saw they would make a choice for him. This is nowhere in Scripture, it is added to the Gospel and to Scripture. It is untrue.

None are saved via decision. James 1:18; John 1:13; 1 Peter 1:3; Romans 9:16. If they believe this and teach this then salvation was a reward, not a gift. It is Soli Deo Gloria and man gets no glory or any boasting in salvation, to say God saved them because he saw they would ___________ then it is merit, and reward, not grace. Note 1 Corinthians 1:26-31.

Now, let's get on with it, let us see you and others fight for man in this, for what he did, for deciding, because he chose, and we see many get angry over this, to make sure man "gets his due" while trying to claim it is all of God at the same time. It is unbelievable the blindness! God gets ALL the glory, man gets zero.

It's funny that others on here fight against God's determinism in salvation, mock it, ridicule it, belittle it, then turn right around and preach man's determinism being the clincher. Unreal.

You all need to think real hard while you're on here arguing against works salvation, arguing that man had nothing to do with it, when in reality some most certainly believe man had something to do with salvation because that is certainly what some are preaching. "God saw man would do ______ so he rewarded them for it." If you are given something because you did something it is no longer a gift, it is a reward.

As you are an obvious Calvinist, and believe God chooses some for heaven and others for hell - are their babies in hell?

lightbearer · Dec 16, 2018

Budman said:

He is speaking in the present historic tense in chapter seven. We know this Because He makes the proclamation to be free from the Law of sin and death that the righteousness of the Law might be fulled in us who walk after the spirit and not after the flesh.

Budman said:

No not just eternal condemnation. Paul through the Spirit is being specific.

Paul proclaims in verse two of chapter eight His deliverance from the Law of sin and death which he claimed to be in service to through his flesh in verse 7:23, 25. THAT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Rom 8:4)

Prior to Christ who made us free from the law of sin and death; that the righteousness of the law be perform in us who walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh Paul said....
I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
(Rom 7:22-25)

In respect to Paul's use of the mind he is referring to knowing the Law; what sin is. Knowing the Law does not enable us to be as GOD would have us. The only way is Jesus Christ.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what (knowing) the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(Rom 8:1-4)

Paul claims he had been Made me free from the law of sin and death. No longer in captivity to the Law of sin which which is in His members. HE HAS BEEN MADE FREE! That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. (Rom 8:2-4; 6:6,7)

Set free from the Law of sin and death. Our old man crucified with with HIM that the Body of Sin be destroyed. That Hence forth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin through Jesus Christ. Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
(1Pe 2:24 KJV)

Rosemaryx · Dec 16, 2018

Afternoon all from cloudy England...
Just want to say , If Abraham was not saved by works , then no one can be saved by works , If Abraham was saved by faith , which he was , then all man will be saved by faith...
How wonderful it is that we are saved by Gods grace Ephesians 2:8...xox...

mailmandan · Dec 16, 2018

Argueless said:

Works-salvationists ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" (Romans 6:16) and simply stress "obedience that leads to righteousness" as if works of obedience that follow saving faith in Christ are unto righteousness, as if we are saved by works. Unbelievers are not slaves of obedience unto righteousness no matter how much so called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works.

There is a contrast here between servants/slaves. There are only two kinds of servants/slaves in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants/slaves of sin unto death, or servants/slaves of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation, we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness."

Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness. *God imputes righteousness apart from works. (verse 6)

We must obey the Gospel that we heard to lead us to a righteousness thru FAITH and this righteousness thru FAITH will give us the promised Holy Spirit (Galatians 3:14) and we will be sanctified by the TRUTH of the WORD (john 17:17) empowering us to live HOLY lives resulting to eternal life. (salvation)

Click to expand...

In Romans 10:16, we read: But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" We can clearly see that we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16) We don't merit eternal life based on the merits of living a holy life. That is salvation by works. (Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28) *When are you going to wake up and smell the coffee?

SALVATION is a process according to the eternal purpose of God.

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There are 3 tenses to salvation, which often get mixed up by works-salvationists. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin. (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin -- "there is your process." (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin. (glorification)

Also, Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. If we have saving faith then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things HOPED for.. (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life (Titus 3:7).

So it is CHRIST in us and us in CHRIST, in His BODY which is the Church and of which He is the Savior. Ephesians 5:23

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Here is how we get into His BODY: Ephesians 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.

...Whoever claims to LIVE IN HIM must WALK as Jesus did. 1john 2:6

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1 John 2:6 - the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. Walking in in obedience to his commands is the demonstrative evidence that we walk in love. Obedience is not forced or legalistic for those who are born of God. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10) Works-salvationists place the cart before the horse.

So in Hebrews 5:9, who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I've heard many works salvationists use Hebrews 5:9 to try and support salvation by works, including Roman Catholics and Mormons. *Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping (guarding, observing, watching over) His commandments and practicing righteousness and not sin (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). *In either sense, believers obey Him.*

Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works/based on the merits of their performance. *So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.*

So if you are not WALKING in obedience to His commands then you are not WALKING in LOVE and not WALKING as Jesus did therefore are NOT IN CHRIST and if you're NOT IN CHRIST, you will not be saved by Jesus when He comes TO SAVE HIS BODY and God will judge you and throw you outside were there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Hebrews 5:8-9

Click to expand...

Perverting the gospel by teaching salvation by works is not walking in obedience to His commands or walking in Love or walking as Jesus did. Stop confusing descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture. Unbelievers are not in Christ, have not received the Holy Spirit and will not be saved (John 3:18; Acts 11:17; 15:8,9; Romans 8:9 etc..).

Studyman · Dec 16, 2018

Budman said:

But BM, the Christ of the Bible already "tacked on" requirements to receive this Gift. He specifically said "Not everyone who claims belief (calls Him "Lord" , supreme in authority) receives His Free Gift. These are His Words not mine or religious mans.

So I am not dismissing anything, just the opposite. Since it is Jesus who gives this gift, I think we should listen to Him on who get's it and who doesn't. Not the Pope, or Benny Hinn or any other religious man.

Jesus doesn't give this gift to EVERYONE who claims belief. This is a Biblical Fact. He SAID He is the Way, HIS Word's are life. These are HIS WORDS.

The religious implication that Faith is dead once we honor God with obedience is popular no doubt, but a falsehood just the same.

I'm not trying to "bomb" the post with Christ's Word's. I strive to live by them so they are very important to me. How can you teach another way than His Word's?

Gen. 4:
6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Matt. 10:
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matt. 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Matt. 7:
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What is more important, letting the Word's of the Christ guide our footsteps, or religious tradition guiding our footsteps?

Hevosmies · Dec 16, 2018

preacher4truth said:

Well of course, yet that belief is via Christ, not inherent ability nor innate ability. Ephesians 1:19 for example.

Nor is it a gift if one believes it was extended to them because God saw they would make a choice for him. This is nowhere in Scripture, it is added to the Gospel and to Scripture. It is untrue.

None are saved via decision. James 1:18; John 1:13; 1 Peter 1:3; Romans 9:16. If they believe this and teach this then salvation was a reward, not a gift. It is Soli Deo Gloria and man gets no glory or any boasting in salvation, to say God saved them because he saw they would ___________ then it is merit, and reward, not grace. Note 1 Corinthians 1:26-31.

Now, let's get on with it, let us see you and others fight for man in this, for what he did, for deciding, because he chose, and we see many get angry over this, to make sure man "gets his due" while trying to claim it is all of God at the same time. It is unbelievable the blindness! God gets ALL the glory, man gets zero.

It's funny that others on here fight against God's determinism in salvation, mock it, ridicule it, belittle it, then turn right around and preach man's determinism being the clincher. Unreal.

You all need to think real hard while you're on here arguing against works salvation, arguing that man had nothing to do with it, when in reality some most certainly believe man had something to do with salvation because that is certainly what some are preaching. "God saw man would do ______ so he rewarded them for it." If you are given something because you did something it is no longer a gift, it is a reward.

Wow. That makes sense

If it wasnt for a couple of things i would be a full 100% calvinist. I'd probably tattoo a TULIP on me back.

Studyman · Dec 16, 2018

Rosemaryx said:

But how can we understand if we omit so much of God's Words? Paul was fighting with Jews who were still following the Priesthood sacrificial "works of the Law" for justification of sins. This is just Biblical truth. His argument was that Abraham didn't even have this Priesthood, Levi wasn't even born yet. So Abraham's sins (Transgression of God's Laws he had) could not, and were not cleansed by the "Works of a Law" that was added 430 years after him.

He had God's Laws.

Gen. 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

But he didn't have the Levitical Priesthood and their sacrificial "Works of the Law" for remission of sins that was "ADDED" Till the Seed should come.

His sins were forgiven, not by the "works of the Law" of a Priesthood specifically designed to cleanse sin "until the seed should come", but because when God Spoke to him, He "believed" Him and showed this belief by his works. As opposed to Eve, who was convinced to not believe Him, which she also showed by her works.

How can one have a honest conversation about "Works of the Law" and omit these relevant Biblical Facts?

Sackcloth-N-Ashes · Dec 16, 2018

Budman said:

God does not choose anyone for hell my friend.

Sackcloth-N-Ashes · Dec 16, 2018

Hevosmies said:

Buy some Cracker Jacks. They have prizes in them, even removable tattoos. Hopefully one has TULIP on them.

Sackcloth-N-Ashes · Dec 16, 2018

Budman said:

They were damned because they claimed the name of Jesus but were not born again. Because Christians still sin. You do, and I do. It is lack of belief in Christ that damns a person. Nothing more.

The gospel is simply this: By virtue of His death, burial, and resurrection, Jesus gives everlasting life to anyone who just believes in Him for it.

People are already condemned(John 3:18) my friend,

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