Not By Works

[PennEd]

But that does not go along with what Paul also wrote in Romans 5:12-19 my friend, especially verse 12. Then he also wrote in Romans 3:23 all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...which includes babies. Yes, babies. Adam was the federal head of his posterity and when he fell, everyone of us fell, including babies. His guilt was transferred to all mankind. That is why babies die in infancy, and even the womb. His sin was imputed to us. He even wrote to the church at Corinth "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive"(1 Cor. 15:22). Romans 5:12-19, 1 Corinthians 15:22, and 2 Corinthians 5:21 all speak to Jesus being the Federal Head of His people, the elect of God. Everything He did, He did for them. He lived the sinless life and kept the Law perfectly(which was imputed to us when we were saved), took the sins of the elect upon Himself and bore them upon a cross to atone(which is limited to His elect, the believers), and rose again the third day for their justification. Romans 4:25 says He rose for our justification. If His death, burial and resurrection was for all mankind, then all mankind will be saved, because His resurrection secured their justification. Thank you for your civility my friend.

I am with you in that I don't believe children are sinless. However I also don't believe their sin is imputed to them spiritually. Yes, they physically die because of the imputed sin of Adam. But Paul makes the very point that he WAS alive spiritually BEFORE the commandment of the Law came. THAT right there tells us there is in fact an age of accountability.


God did not become a Nephillim in the form of Jesus. He came as a human being. Scripture tells us the Nephillim/Rephaim are ineligible to be resurrected.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

I am with you in that I don't believe children are sinless. However I also don't believe their sin is imputed to them spiritually. Yes, they physically die because of the imputed sin of Adam. But Paul makes the very point that he WAS alive spiritually BEFORE the commandment of the Law came. THAT right there tells us there is in fact an age of accountability.


God did not become a Nephillim in the form of Jesus. He came as a human being. Scripture tells us the Nephillim/Rephaim are ineligible to be resurrected.

What you say about Romans 7:9 is counterproductive to Paul’s writings in other places my friend. Babies are born dead in Adam, and they need the grace of God just as much as we did pre-conversion. If Paul was alive before the Law came, then he was sinless. Or that’s how it comes across to me.

 

[preacher4truth]

Opinion alert no scripture!!

But your posting after posting of no Scripture is all good, right?

 

[preacher4truth]

He gave me 13 BIG RED X's out of spite for me giving him 4 or 5...or thereabout. I could NOT care less about these X's as I am not here to win trophy points, but to stand for the truth and present the scriptures exegetically, contextually, and theologically. I can get an infinite # of X's, as long as I present the bible in the manner I stated, I will praise God for allowing me to do it this way for Him. I am not worried about a trophy, I want a crown.

Keep on doing just that brother!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am with you in that I don't believe children are sinless. However I also don't believe their sin is imputed to them spiritually. Yes, they physically die because of the imputed sin of Adam. But Paul makes the very point that he WAS alive spiritually BEFORE the commandment of the Law came. THAT right there tells us there is in fact an age of accountability.


God did not become a Nephillim in the form of Jesus. He came as a human being. Scripture tells us the Nephillim/Rephaim are ineligible to be resurrected.

The bible says in Adam ALL die. Would that not mean children also? Even david claimed he was concieved in sin.

 

[PennEd]

What you say about Romans 7:9 is counterproductive to Paul’s writings in other places my friend. Babies are born dead in Adam, and they need the grace of God just as much as we did pre-conversion. If Paul was alive before the Law came, then he was sinless. Or that’s how it comes across to me.

I don't understand what you mean by "IF" Paul was alive before Law. He flat out tells us he WAS alive. Why can't Christ's Blood be sufficient for Children that don't understand the Law? Why can't they also be the Elect?

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

I don't understand what you mean by "IF" Paul was alive before Law. He flat out tells us he WAS alive. Why can't Christ's Blood be sufficient for Children that don't understand the Law? Why can't they also be the Elect?

However, he said he was alive then died. So Paul lost his salvation my friend, if this be true. Here is Matthew Poole’s take on it. Take it FWIW...

For I was alive without the law once: q.d. Take me, if you please, for an instance. Before I knew the law aright, and understood the Divine and spiritual meaning of it, or whilst the law stood afar off, and was not brought home to my conscience, I was alive, that is, in my own conceit; I thought myself in as good condition as any man living; my conscience never gave me any trouble. So it was with me once, or heretofore, when I was a Pharisee, or in an unregenerate state.

But when the commandment came; i.e. when it came nearer to my conscience; when I came to know and understand the spiritual meaning and extent of it, that it condemned sinful lusts, affections, and inclinations.

Sin revived; i.e. its sinfulness and guilt appeared, and I had a lively sense thereof imprinted upon my soul; or my corruptions began to gather head, and seemed, as it were, to receive new vigour and life.

And I died; i.e. in my own opinion and feeling. I felt my conscience deadly wounded. I was convinced I was in a state of death and damnation. I lost the confidence I formerly had of my good estate.


My posting here...


No doubt, Paul thought he was a saved man carrying out God’s will as he reeked havoc on those who called upon the name of Jesus. To be saved by this Galilean would have been preposterous in his mind. Why save a man who needed not to be saved? It was after God knock him down that he realized his need of Him.

Thank you again and ever so much for your civility my friend.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

I don't understand what you mean by "IF" Paul was alive before Law. He flat out tells us he WAS alive. Why can't Christ's Blood be sufficient for Children that don't understand the Law? Why can't they also be the Elect?

But in other places he said all were dead in Adam my friend. This is contradictory to those other places such as Romans 3:23, 5:12-19, and 1 Cor. 15:22.

 

[Rosemaryx]

Hi all...I think this subject on children going to heaven or hell should be made in a fresh thread , hope you all have a lovely day...
This is the day the LORD has made , let us rejoice and be glad in it \/...xox...

 

[PennEd]

However, he said he was alive then died. So Paul lost his salvation my friend, if this be true. Here is Matthew Poole’s take on it. Take it FWIW...

For I was alive without the law once: q.d. Take me, if you please, for an instance. Before I knew the law aright, and understood the Divine and spiritual meaning of it, or whilst the law stood afar off, and was not brought home to my conscience, I was alive, that is, in my own conceit; I thought myself in as good condition as any man living; my conscience never gave me any trouble. So it was with me once, or heretofore, when I was a Pharisee, or in an unregenerate state.

But when the commandment came; i.e. when it came nearer to my conscience; when I came to know and understand the spiritual meaning and extent of it, that it condemned sinful lusts, affections, and inclinations.

Sin revived; i.e. its sinfulness and guilt appeared, and I had a lively sense thereof imprinted upon my soul; or my corruptions began to gather head, and seemed, as it were, to receive new vigour and life.

And I died; i.e. in my own opinion and feeling. I felt my conscience deadly wounded. I was convinced I was in a state of death and damnation. I lost the confidence I formerly had of my good estate.


My posting here...


No doubt, Paul thought he was a saved man carrying out God’s will as he reeked havoc on those who called upon the name of Jesus. To be saved by this Galilean would have been preposterous in his mind. Why save a man who needed not to be saved? It was after God knock him down that he realized his need of Him.

Thank you again and ever so much for your civility my friend.

That's taking an awful lot of liberties and stretching the text pretty darn far. I mean I could probably find a commentary to fit any conceivable doctrine. Pretty meaningless. No need to add all that stuff about him only THINKING he was saved. The text says "I WAS ALIVE"

Also, explain to me how all those children that Jesus HIMSELF said comprised much of Heaven got there, except by His Blood and Grace. Therefore, what would make a child ineligible to redeemed by that Blood and Grace?

Thinking that Children are going to end up in Hell is not only unscriptural, but a bad doctrine to hang election on.

 

[PennEd]

But in other places he said all were dead in Adam my friend. This is contradictory to those other places such as Romans 3:23, 5:12-19, and 1 Cor. 15:22.

I don't see a contradiction at all. ALL are going to physically die, but Paul makes the point that spiritual death comes to those under the Law. At one point he was not under the Law, and was therefore spiritually alive. How the heck can we say he thought he was alive as a good Pharisee, when that life was ALL ABOUT keeping the Law!?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't understand what you mean by "IF" Paul was alive before Law. He flat out tells us he WAS alive. Why can't Christ's Blood be sufficient for Children that don't understand the Law? Why can't they also be the Elect?

Amen, The question is, How are they elect. by what purpose?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

However, he said he was alive then died. So Paul lost his salvation my friend, if this be true. Here is Matthew Poole’s take on it. Take it FWIW...

For I was alive without the law once: q.d. Take me, if you please, for an instance. Before I knew the law aright, and understood the Divine and spiritual meaning of it, or whilst the law stood afar off, and was not brought home to my conscience, I was alive, that is, in my own conceit; I thought myself in as good condition as any man living; my conscience never gave me any trouble. So it was with me once, or heretofore, when I was a Pharisee, or in an unregenerate state.

But when the commandment came; i.e. when it came nearer to my conscience; when I came to know and understand the spiritual meaning and extent of it, that it condemned sinful lusts, affections, and inclinations.

Sin revived; i.e. its sinfulness and guilt appeared, and I had a lively sense thereof imprinted upon my soul; or my corruptions began to gather head, and seemed, as it were, to receive new vigour and life.

And I died; i.e. in my own opinion and feeling. I felt my conscience deadly wounded. I was convinced I was in a state of death and damnation. I lost the confidence I formerly had of my good estate.


My posting here...


No doubt, Paul thought he was a saved man carrying out God’s will as he reeked havoc on those who called upon the name of Jesus. To be saved by this Galilean would have been preposterous in his mind. Why save a man who needed not to be saved? It was after God knock him down that he realized his need of Him.

Thank you again and ever so much for your civility my friend.

This makes no senseI am confused by this, Does ones belief matter in the consequences of the law? It does not matter if Paul agreed or not. He was dead according to the law. Ones own interpretation of it does not make the law to no effect.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That's taking an awful lot of liberties and stretching the text pretty darn far. I mean I could probably find a commentary to fit any conceivable doctrine. Pretty meaningless. No need to add all that stuff about him only THINKING he was saved. The text says "I WAS ALIVE"

Also, explain to me how all those children that Jesus HIMSELF said comprised much of Heaven got there, except by His Blood and Grace. Therefore, what would make a child ineligible to redeemed by that Blood and Grace?

Thinking that Children are going to end up in Hell is not only unscriptural, but a bad doctrine to hang election on.

I agree.

Which begs the question. How were they saved?

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

That's taking an awful lot of liberties and stretching the text pretty darn far. I mean I could probably find a commentary to fit any conceivable doctrine. Pretty meaningless. No need to add all that stuff about him only THINKING he was saved. The text says "I WAS ALIVE"

Also, explain to me how all those children that Jesus HIMSELF said comprised much of Heaven got there, except by His Blood and Grace. Therefore, what would make a child ineligible to redeemed by that Blood and Grace?

Thinking that Children are going to end up in Hell is not only unscriptural, but a bad doctrine to hang election on.

I am looking at Paul’s writings as a whole and not just singling out one verse my friend. You are taking one verse(Romans 7:9) and pitting it against others scriptures such as Romans 3:23, 5:12-19, and 1 Cor. 15:22.

All have sinned and fall short...Romans 3:23. This includes babies. So this does not mean they were alive before the Law came...

For in Adam all die...1 Cor. 15:22. This includes babies. So this does not mean they were alive before the Law came...

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--Romans 5-12ff. This includes babies. So this does not mean they were alive before the Law came...


“for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.”(vs 13) Now, at what time has anybody not been under the law of God? It says it is written upon our hearts, even us, who were not given the Law the Jews were to keep. If there is no law, there is no penalty. If there’s no speed limit, there’s no ticket for speeding. However, the law written upon our hearts let’s us know when we’ve broken the law(s) of God. Even those who have never heard of Jesus, heard His gospel know it’s wrong to commit murder, lie, steal, rape, sleep with another person’s spouse, because they have God’s law written upon their hearts.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am looking at Paul’s writings as a whole and not just singling out one verse my friend. You are taking one verse(Romans 7:9) and pitting it against others scriptures such as Romans 3:23, 5:12-19, and 1 Cor. 15:22.

All have sinned and fall short...Romans 3:23. This includes babies. So this does not mean they were alive before the Law came...

For in Adam all die...1 Cor. 15:22. This includes babies. So this does not mean they were alive before the Law came...

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--Romans 5-12ff. This includes babies. So this does not mean they were alive before the Law came...


“for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.”(vs 13) Now, at what time has anybody not been under the law of God? It says it is written upon our hearts, even us, who were not given the Law the Jews were to keep. If there is no law, there is no penalty. If there’s no speed limit, there’s no ticket for speeding. However, the law written upon our hearts let’s us know when we’ve broken the law(s) of God. Even those who have never heard of Jesus, heard His gospel know it’s wrong to commit murder, lie, steal, rape, sleep with another person’s spouse, because they have God’s law written upon their hearts.

How can a baby sin?

However, I do agree, A baby was born under the penalty of sin (in adam)

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

I don't see a contradiction at all. ALL are going to physically die, but Paul makes the point that spiritual death comes to those under the Law. At one point he was not under the Law, and was therefore spiritually alive. How the heck can we say he thought he was alive as a good Pharisee, when that life was ALL ABOUT keeping the Law!?

Again my friend, you are singling out one verse to build your doctrine on. It says they died in Adam in Romans 5:12-19, which meant spiritual death. It did not say they are going to die later on my friend, but died.

 

[preacher4truth]

That's taking an awful lot of liberties and stretching the text pretty darn far. I mean I could probably find a commentary to fit any conceivable doctrine. Pretty meaningless. No need to add all that stuff about him only THINKING he was saved. The text says "I WAS ALIVE"

Also, explain to me how all those children that Jesus HIMSELF said comprised much of Heaven got there, except by His Blood and Grace. Therefore, what would make a child ineligible to redeemed by that Blood and Grace?

Thinking that Children are going to end up in Hell is not only unscriptural, but a bad doctrine to hang election on.

In spite of the fact you've not supplied the reference, or context, Jesus was literally saying that there are children in heaven????? That was his point?

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

In spite of the fact you've not supplied the reference, or context, Jesus was literally saying that their are children in heaven????? That was his point?

Where will the nursery be?

 

[PennEd]

In spite of the fact you've not supplied the reference, or context, Jesus was literally saying that there are children in heaven????? That was his point?

I'm not following the point you're making. Can you please rephrase?