Not By Works

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TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,259
113
AND IF Fran is his or her original name, that lack of TRUSTWORTHYNESS, is SIN.


1 Corinthians 3:16-19 (ESV)
16 Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?
17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.
18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness,”

Job 5:12-13 (ESV)
12 He frustrates the devices of the crafty, so that their hands achieve no success.
13 He catches the wise in their own craftiness, and the schemes of the wily are brought to a quick end.

Romans 1:28-32 (NRSV)
28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind and to things that should not be done.
29 They were filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, craftiness, they are gossips,
30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, rebellious toward parents,
31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
32 They know God's decree, that those who practice such things deserve to die—yet they not only do them but even applaud others who practice them.
Hi VCO, yes it is Fran who was previously banned an she needs to be put on report and people need to stop playing her deceitful game.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,639
1,808
113
Those who preach the false gospel of having to do nothing to maintain salvation after we are born again are teaching a religion that is not Christianity. Having nothing to do after our salvation is a gospel of easy believism. Some here make being a Christian sound very easy because it sounds so good. Churches are beginning to do this too because it draws in crowds.

But it's not what Jesus said. And, as you requested, here is what Jesus said.
Does this sound easy to you?

Jesus said:
Mathew 16:24-25

Discipleship Is Costly

24Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25“For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

Then you said this in your post:
"The only work the Father requires is to to believe in the one who he sent"

This is from John 6:29...
The ONLY time in scripture where Jesus said this.
And do you know why? Because BELIEVE means something when it was said back then.
I'm rather tired of repeating what it means, so you could just look it up.


I've asked @dcontroversal to please explain it to everyone here and prove me wrong...but he has not done this. Why? Because if he does, he'll have to agree with me.

Just quick: Believe means TO DO. It doesn't mean to believe in some modern way and then sit around and do nothing.

You say you do out of love. Nice. The fact is that you're required TO DO, just as Jesus said.

You want scripture? Have you not read Mathew?

Mathew 4:4
Mathew 5:3-10
Mathew 5:13
Mathew 5:14
Mathew 5:16
Mathew 5:17
Mathew 5:19
Mathew 5:20
Mathew 5:22
Mathew 5:24
Mathew 5:27
Mathew 5:32
Mathew 5:39
Mathew 5:40
Mathew 5:41
Mathew 5:44
Mathew 5:48


I mean, really, must I go on? I could fill up two pages.
ALL Jesus did was to leave us instructions on HOW to live our lives...
and yet we want to say that all we need to do is to believe in Him (however people understand that nowadays) and that's ALL we have to do, but of course we do more because we love Him.


Well, I do think it's time to own up to our faith and say that we are required to obey God,,,
God does not make suggestions...


God commands.
If we're born again and follow in His ways, we REMAIN saved.
If we do not follow Him and are not a disciple of His...we return to being unsaved.


We are saved by faith.
We are kept saved by our behavior and obedience to God.
Faith is to lean our whole being in trusting Jesus and His Cross for our salvation. We are kept by Holy Spirit working in our life, not our practice of good works. We do good works because we are saved, not to maintain.
Those who preach the false gospel of having to do nothing to maintain salvation after we are born again are teaching a religion that is not Christianity. Having nothing to do after our salvation is a gospel of easy believism. Some here make being a Christian sound very easy because it sounds so good. Churches are beginning to do this too because it draws in crowds.

But it's not what Jesus said. And, as you requested, here is what Jesus said.
Does this sound easy to you?

Jesus said:
Mathew 16:24-25

Discipleship Is Costly

24Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25“For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

Then you said this in your post:
"The only work the Father requires is to to believe in the one who he sent"

This is from John 6:29...
The ONLY time in scripture where Jesus said this.
And do you know why? Because BELIEVE means something when it was said back then.
I'm rather tired of repeating what it means, so you could just look it up.


I've asked @dcontroversal to please explain it to everyone here and prove me wrong...but he has not done this. Why? Because if he does, he'll have to agree with me.

Just quick: Believe means TO DO. It doesn't mean to believe in some modern way and then sit around and do nothing.

You say you do out of love. Nice. The fact is that you're required TO DO, just as Jesus said.

You want scripture? Have you not read Mathew?

Mathew 4:4
Mathew 5:3-10
Mathew 5:13
Mathew 5:14
Mathew 5:16
Mathew 5:17
Mathew 5:19
Mathew 5:20
Mathew 5:22
Mathew 5:24
Mathew 5:27
Mathew 5:32
Mathew 5:39
Mathew 5:40
Mathew 5:41
Mathew 5:44
Mathew 5:48


I mean, really, must I go on? I could fill up two pages.
ALL Jesus did was to leave us instructions on HOW to live our lives...
and yet we want to say that all we need to do is to believe in Him (however people understand that nowadays) and that's ALL we have to do, but of course we do more because we love Him.


Well, I do think it's time to own up to our faith and say that we are required to obey God,,,
God does not make suggestions...


God commands.
If we're born again and follow in His ways, we REMAIN saved.
If we do not follow Him and are not a disciple of His...we return to being unsaved.


We are saved by faith.
We are kept saved by our behavior and obedience to God.
We are kept saved by our behavior and obedience to God.
[/QUOTE]

That is not the same conclusion that I came to Godsgrace101. I said by the working of Holy Spirit. Jesus kept the 11 while He was with them. None were lost except the son of perdition. Now it is Holy Spirits work....one of the reasons He was sent.



1Pe 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus, the Messiah! Because of his great mercy he has granted us a new birth, resulting in an immortal hope through the resurrection of Jesus, the Messiah, from the dead


1Pe 1:4  and to an inheritance kept in heaven for you that can't be destroyed, corrupted, or changed.


1Pe 1:5  Through faith you are being protected by God's power for a salvation that is ready to be revealed at the end of this era.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,833
3,768
113
Those who preach the false gospel of having to do nothing to maintain salvation after we are born again are teaching a religion that is not Christianity. Having nothing to do after our salvation is a gospel of easy believism. Some here make being a Christian sound very easy because it sounds so good. Churches are beginning to do this too because it draws in crowds.

But it's not what Jesus said. And, as you requested, here is what Jesus said.
Does this sound easy to you?

Jesus said:
Mathew 16:24-25

Discipleship Is Costly

24Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25“For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

Then you said this in your post:
"The only work the Father requires is to to believe in the one who he sent"

This is from John 6:29...
The ONLY time in scripture where Jesus said this.
And do you know why? Because BELIEVE means something when it was said back then.
I'm rather tired of repeating what it means, so you could just look it up.


I've asked @dcontroversal to please explain it to everyone here and prove me wrong...but he has not done this. Why? Because if he does, he'll have to agree with me.

Just quick: Believe means TO DO. It doesn't mean to believe in some modern way and then sit around and do nothing.

You say you do out of love. Nice. The fact is that you're required TO DO, just as Jesus said.

You want scripture? Have you not read Mathew?

Mathew 4:4
Mathew 5:3-10
Mathew 5:13
Mathew 5:14
Mathew 5:16
Mathew 5:17
Mathew 5:19
Mathew 5:20
Mathew 5:22
Mathew 5:24
Mathew 5:27
Mathew 5:32
Mathew 5:39
Mathew 5:40
Mathew 5:41
Mathew 5:44
Mathew 5:48


I mean, really, must I go on? I could fill up two pages.
ALL Jesus did was to leave us instructions on HOW to live our lives...
and yet we want to say that all we need to do is to believe in Him (however people understand that nowadays) and that's ALL we have to do, but of course we do more because we love Him.


Well, I do think it's time to own up to our faith and say that we are required to obey God,,,
God does not make suggestions...


God commands.
If we're born again and follow in His ways, we REMAIN saved.
If we do not follow Him and are not a disciple of His...we return to being unsaved.


We are saved by faith.
We are kept saved by our behavior and obedience to God.
You could go on and fill up two pages if you want.
But what purpose would it serve?

Let's whittle it down

Post a Bible verse where Jesus said "Your works will save you" verbatim

I can think of one work that will save us.
But whose work is it?

Just so know I do not I'm taking out of the equation "If you love me"
Because that is what a Saved person will do because they are already saved and not to be saved.

There is a difference
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,357
113
Consider this D,
If it's all Christ, as you say....before, and AFTER salvation...

Then should we be holding HIM responsible for when we sin?

Will be leaving for a while....



I never said before Fran....and you know good and well that my statement was within the context of being saved, justified and kept eternally by the faith that Christ begins, finishes and completes....

The above "flip" was very deceptive of you and too be honest, not very mature if you...I expect better from you!
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,357
113
yes, fran, arguelsss, studyman, they are just here to play games and mess around.

I think that is why those of us who want to have serious discussion about God's word get so irritated with them.........
I don't even see their drivel anymore....a complete waste of time!
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,357
113
You could go on and fill up two pages if you want.
But what purpose would it serve?

Let's whittle it down

Post a Bible verse where Jesus said "Your works will save you" verbatim

I can think of one work that will save us.
But whose work is it?

Just so know I do not I'm taking out of the equation "If you love me"
Because that is what a Saved person will do because they are already saved and not to be saved.

There is a difference
Amen Billy Billy....hahah makes me think of that cartoon when I was a kid of a goat named Billy eating train tracks saying, "Billy, Billy, Billy........." nonstop hahha
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Faith is to lean our whole being in trusting Jesus and His Cross for our salvation. We are kept by Holy Spirit working in our life, not our practice of good works. We do good works because we are saved, not to maintain.

We are kept saved by our behavior and obedience to God.
I have a difficult time having a serious conversation here. Most just want to attack.
We do good works because we are saved.
OK.
What if we're saved and decide we don't wish to do anything more for God?
Our we still saved?

That is not the same conclusion that I came to Godsgrace101. I said by the working of Holy Spirit. Jesus kept the 11 while He was with them. None were lost except the son of perdition. Now it is Holy Spirits work....one of the reasons He was sent.
Are you saying it's the Holy Spirit now that keeps us?
Are you saying that if I so wanted, I COULD NOT leave God and abandon His protection?
Do you believe you lost your free will when you became born again?

Jesus said the Holy Spirit would guide us into all truth.
When you read Jesus' words...you don't get the feeling that He wants us to obey Him?

1Pe 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus, the Messiah! Because of his great mercy he has granted us a new birth, resulting in an immortal hope through the resurrection of Jesus, the Messiah, from the dead

Agreed.
Jesus has granted us a new birth. HE said we have to be born from above. John 3:3
Resulting in IMMORTAL HOPE. And what is that HOPE?
Romans 8:24-25

24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?
25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.


We hope and wait eagerly for what we hope in....salvation and our inheritance. We cannot HOPE for something we already see. Jesus said IF we endure to the end we will be saved. Why would He say this if He knew HE would keep us. He's saying that it's up to US to endure.


1Pe 1:4  and to an inheritance kept in heaven for you that can't be destroyed, corrupted, or changed.


1Pe 1:5  Through faith you are being protected by God's power for a salvation that is ready to be revealed at the end of this era.
An inheritance kept in heaven that cannot be destroyed by anything except our own selves.
Just like John 10:28...nothing can take us out of the hand of God --- unless we voluntarily walk out.
Otherwise all of those warnings by Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, Titus,,,etc. would have been unnecessary and futile to write about. No warning would have been necessary if once we believed we were kept believing by Jesus or the Holy Spirit. Surely the warnings are written because it's up to us to endure.

Note the last verse you posted:
It is THROUGH FAITH that we are being protected...
as long as we remain with God we are protected....
if we leave Him we are no longer under His protection.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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No.... He holds us responsible....
That is why He chastens us who are His already

also why some of us may face many trials and learn many hard lessons

and also why some of our works will be burned up but we will be saved...
Exactly..........Jamie understands it hahha 😀
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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Did I say we lose salvation if we sin?
Maybe you could read what I say instead of thinking you're reading what I say.

I said:

IF we hold Jesus responsible for EVERYTHING,,,
then we must hold HIM responsible for when we sin too.

I must leave.
I never said nor implied that and shame on you for adding or embellishing the context of what I said.......You know full well the context was in light of being saved, justified and kept by the power of Christ.....wow Fran.....not very nice of you!
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
I never said before Fran....and you know good and well that my statement was within the context of being saved, justified and kept eternally by the faith that Christ begins, finishes and completes....

The above "flip" was very deceptive of you and too be honest, not very mature if you...I expect better from you!
What flip???
Before salvation, you were not saved.
Isn't it Jesus who saved you?
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,357
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I know this wasn't in response to me however I do have something to say about this.

When you say our "good works" are nothing but filthy rags do you realize we are all still called to do good works once we have come the the knowledge of saving grace?
For example I don't keep the Instruction of Elohim to be saved, I guard the commandments of the Father because of the Salvation provided freely. We who do guard the commandments and trust in Messiah for our salvation don't keep them because we want to make it into the Kingdom we do it to glorify the Father through the finished work of Messiah.

The Sabbaths are meant for mankind as well as the "good works" written in form of laws, ordinance, and precepts.

Don't be a fool like those who rebelled against Elohim in the wilderness. It was because of their rebellion that they did not enter into the Land of promise and instead died.
I seem to remember reading that it was a lack of FAITH in Hebrews
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
I never said nor implied that and shame on you for adding or embellishing the context of what I said.......You know full well the context was in light of being saved, justified and kept by the power of Christ.....wow Fran.....not very nice of you!
I was speaking to @eternally grateful.

You never said anything like what he said.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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@JohnTalmid is responding to everyone on this thread that wrongly believe works are not part of our salvation...

As Jesus said and which some refuse to believe....
False again.....

NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH HE HAVE DONE <--DESTROYS your whole narrative Fran of making WORKS part of the saving equation!
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
You could go on and fill up two pages if you want.
But what purpose would it serve?

Let's whittle it down

Post a Bible verse where Jesus said "Your works will save you" verbatim

I can think of one work that will save us.
But whose work is it?

Just so know I do not I'm taking out of the equation "If you love me"
Because that is what a Saved person will do because they are already saved and not to be saved.

There is a difference
As soon as you find me a verse where Jesus said all we have to do is "believe" in Him and we'll be saved. He NEVER said this. He just said we have to be born from above.
John 6:29 says we are to believe in Him....but NO ONE here is willing to explain what BELIEVE means.
Wonder why???

And, apparently, you're asking again so you must have missed my post. no. 80,474...
Here it is again: Reading the entire N.T. again from cover to cover might help too...

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

post 80,474

Those who preach the false gospel of having to do nothing to maintain salvation after we are born again are teaching a religion that is not Christianity. Having nothing to do after our salvation is a gospel of easy believism. Some here make being a Christian sound very easy because it sounds so good. Churches are beginning to do this too because it draws in crowds.

But it's not what Jesus said. And, as you requested, here is what Jesus said.
Does this sound easy to you?

Jesus said:
Mathew 16:24-25

Discipleship Is Costly

24Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25“For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

Then you said this in your post:
"The only work the Father requires is to to believe in the one who he sent"

This is from John 6:29...
The ONLY time in scripture where Jesus said this.
And do you know why? Because BELIEVE means something when it was said back then.
I'm rather tired of repeating what it means, so you could just look it up.

I've asked @dcontroversal to please explain it to everyone here and prove me wrong...but he has not done this. Why? Because if he does, he'll have to agree with me.

Just quick: Believe means TO DO. It doesn't mean to believe in some modern way and then sit around and do nothing.

You say you do out of love. Nice. The fact is that you're required TO DO, just as Jesus said.

You want scripture? Have you not read Mathew?

Mathew 4:4
Mathew 5:3-10
Mathew 5:13
Mathew 5:14
Mathew 5:16
Mathew 5:17
Mathew 5:19
Mathew 5:20
Mathew 5:22
Mathew 5:24
Mathew 5:27
Mathew 5:32
Mathew 5:39
Mathew 5:40
Mathew 5:41
Mathew 5:44
Mathew 5:48

I mean, really, must I go on? I could fill up two pages.
ALL Jesus did was to leave us instructions on HOW to live our lives...
and yet we want to say that all we need to do is to believe in Him (however people understand that nowadays) and that's ALL we have to do, but of course we do more because we love Him.

Well, I do think it's time to own up to our faith and say that we are required to obey God,,,
God does not make suggestions...

God commands.
If we're born again and follow in His ways, we REMAIN saved.
If we do not follow Him and are not a disciple of His...we return to being unsaved.

We are saved by faith.
We are kept saved by our behavior and obedience to God.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,357
113
What flip???
Before salvation, you were not saved.
Isn't it Jesus who saved you?
Don't even try my friend.....You took my comment about it being ALL JESUS concerning our salvation, justification etc...and tried to flip it and make out like I was saying he is responsible for everything in our lives including sin.....you know better mate!
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
False again.....

NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH HE HAVE DONE <--DESTROYS your whole narrative Fran of making WORKS part of the saving equation!
Dear D,
This is what you don't seem to understand...

I don't do WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS....
I'm not under the Law.

I do works under the grace of God.

Don't you know what works of righteousness are?
It's those filthy rags you keep talking about.
I'm already righteous under the grace of God.

You know...the difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Don't even try my friend.....You took my comment about it being ALL JESUS concerning our salvation, justification etc...and tried to flip it and make out like I was saying he is responsible for everything in our lives including sin.....you know better mate!
Oh.
Well. THIS IS TRUE then.

IF you want to say that JESUS DOES IT ALL....
And WE have nothing to do with it....

THEN
you must understand that He is also responsible for when you sin....
Since HE does it all and we have nothing to do with it.

You have to bring your arguments to the logical conclusion.