Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
46,118
20,044
113
Jesus said faith could be "temporary." The faith that brings us to Christ as a saving faith is eternal and not temporary. Our salvation is forever. So you are speaking about 2 different things.

Faith unto salvation is eternal.

Faith day to day can be strong, weak but if one is saved, it will never be lost.
I cannot grasp the fact that people say saving faith can be lost when the bible states clearly that JESUS begins, finishes and COMPLETES the work of faith in us.....it is a flat LIE and rejection of the word to say that we can LOSE that which JESUS begins, finishes and COMPLETES IN US
 

WalkingTree

Active member
Jan 13, 2019
168
100
43
Hi Walking tree, nice to meet you. So when you refer to the word, "it", as in, "God didn't forsake", "it", then I can surmise that you are referring to God's "Law."

And also I counted the word "law" was used 20 times in just a few paragraphs so again to follow your thoughts correctly you believe that as a true believer of Jesus we are required to follow the Law?, or am I not reading your words correctly.
If you can identify all this about my post why didn't you see the heart of the message?

I answered plainly then explained my answer. The answer isn't a simple yes or no. The Spirit does not use the law for righteousness sake, but the law is of the Spirit. God writes his law upon our hearts through the Spirit. They are all observed through faith. And the works they produced are not our own.
To try and divide the two pitting one against the other is where many go astray.

But righteousness is offered apart from works of the law. It's attained through faith.
 
Oct 31, 2015
1,807
473
83
how many times a day do I have to confess in order to be saved?

is it the same from one day to the next?

do I have to confess more on the Sabbath?

just wondering.....
Confess your sins?


What are you taking about?


Please just answer the question.


Can a person be saved by disobeying the Gospel.



in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8



But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16



To obey the Gospel is to confess Jesus as Lord.


This is how we are saved.


For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:10



  • with the mouth confession is made unto salvation




JLB
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
'falling-away' - denying - ??? are these really a possibility to those who claim that this
cannot happen???
Would you like to explain further what you mean?

Peter denied Jesus multiple times....

...as for falling away....
are you speaking of a new creature, kept by the power of God
under grace
filled with the Holy spirit... and sealed

can fall away from the promises of God and be forcefully removed from Gods hand through the will of man?



or are you suggesting one like Judas may fall away...

many will go out from us....tares and goats...salt with no flavor...lamps with no oil


but any of Gods children aren't goats
we are sheep and like the Shepard our Father runs back to get us


and if we wander off in the worst sense
like the prodigal son
and are even percieved as dead.....
as His son
we will know our Father is our only hope and start trying to go back to Him

but we don't make it to Him
He will make it to us, restore us.... joyfully showing us more love than we could ever deserve


"Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."





"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."






Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
________



To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
7,699
3,637
113
Confess your sins?


What are you taking about?


Please just answer the question.


Can a person be saved by disobeying the Gospel.



in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8



But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16



To obey the Gospel is to confess Jesus as Lord.


This is how we are saved.


For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:10



  • with the mouth confession is made unto salvation




JLB
the Gospel is " believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved ".

and, as far as confession , the same sentence says " and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead ''

it is not wise to quote half a sentence and build theology around it.

trying to be deceptive......
 
Oct 31, 2015
1,807
473
83
the Gospel is " believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved ".

and, as far as confession , the same sentence says " and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead ''

it is not wise to quote half a sentence and build theology around it.

trying to be deceptive......

Believing as it is “understood” today is only half.


If you read what I quoted, Romans 10:10 you won’t see “half” of a verse.


For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10


This is not half of a verse.


What I am emphasizing is the principle of faith that many overlook today, which is the obedience part of Romans 10:10.


Believe actually carries the idea of obedience.

Unbelief is the same Greek word as disobedience and is used interchangeably in the New Testament.


Believe is the context of the Gospel means trust and commit to obey Jesus as Lord.


The Gospel is repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.


Repent means to turn to God.


If you are called to repent, turn to God, then by default you are called to turn away from Satan as your lord, by turning to Christ Jesus as your Lord.


The way we obey the Gospel is to repent by confessing Jesus as Lord.


Here is Paul recounting the Lord Jesus commissioning him to do this.


Words of Christ in red for emphasis-


But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:16-20



Can we discuss this principle of faith further?





JLB
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
46,118
20,044
113
the Gospel is " believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved ".

and, as far as confession , the same sentence says " and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead ''

it is not wise to quote half a sentence and build theology around it.

trying to be deceptive......
Exactly why I have a few on ignore....they have no ability to be honest with the verbiage, verb tense, context and or the truth while ignoring words such as....Irrevocable, Eternal, Everlasting, Not by works, By faith, Kept, incorruptible, power of God, uttermost, never leave, never forsake, does not sin, sealed unto, perfect tense verbs, aorist tense verbs, salvation in all three tenses, and on and on and on and on and on and on and on..........

The truth, they peddle and worship a god not found in scripture while by word and deed state clearly that the Jesus the believe is inept, a liar and unable to keep his word and do that which he states he will do....that being save a man eternally, justify a man eternally, and sanctify a man postionally and eternally BY FAITH WITHOUT WORKS to gain, keep or maintain a salvation which cannot be lost or forfeit!!
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
20,473
9,182
113
54
the Gospel is " believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved ".

and, as far as confession , the same sentence says " and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead ''

it is not wise to quote half a sentence and build theology around it.

trying to be deceptive......
I have already explained this to JPT numerous times in the past and also just yesterday in post #81,127 but he JUST DOESN'T GET IT and continues to peddle salvation by faith + works. :( - https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-4057
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
7,699
3,637
113
Believing as it is “understood” today is only half.


If you read what I quoted, Romans 10:10 you won’t see “half” of a verse.


For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10


This is not half of a verse.


What I am emphasizing is the principle of faith that many overlook today, which is the obedience part of Romans 10:10.


Believe actually carries the idea of obedience.

Unbelief is the same Greek word as disobedience and is used interchangeably in the New Testament.


Believe is the context of the Gospel means trust and commit to obey Jesus as Lord.


The Gospel is repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.


Repent means to turn to God.


If you are called to repent, turn to God, then by default you are called to turn away from Satan as your lord, by turning to Christ Jesus as your Lord.


The way we obey the Gospel is to repent by confessing Jesus as Lord.


Here is Paul recounting the Lord Jesus commissioning him to do this.


Words of Christ in red for emphasis-


But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:16-20



Can we discuss this principle of faith further?





JLB
sure.

it's like this - we ae saved by grace through faith for good works.

that is the order- salvation is from God the Father through Christ the Son, we have faith, trust ( belief ) in Him, and then we are empowered by the Holy Sprit to do good works.

so, yes, we are to obey.

but, obeying does NOT , NOT , NOT , produce or maintain salvation.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,409
2,527
113
... It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. THE LORD WILL PUNISH MEN FOR ALL SUCH SINS, as we have already told you and WARNED YOU. For GOD DID NOT CALL YOU TO BE IMPURE, BUT TO LIVE A HOLY LIFE. Therefore, HE WHO REJECTS THIS INSTRUCTION DOES NOT REJECT MAN BUT GOD, who gives you his Holy Spirit. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8

... Therefore, PREPARE YOUR MINDS FOR ACTION; be self-controlled; SET YOUR HOPE FULLY ON THE GRACE TO BE GIVEN YOU WHEN JESUS CHRIST IS REVEALED. As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.” 1 Peter 1:13-16

... But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

...I know your deeds, you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.2 Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I HAVE NOT FOUND YOUR DEEDS COMPLETE IN THE SIGHT OF MY GOD.3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; OBEY IT, AND REPENT. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. Revelation 3:1-3

...See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, IF WE TURN AWAY FROM HIM WHO WARNS US FROM HEAVEN? Hebrews 12:25
What about this?
 
Oct 31, 2015
1,807
473
83
it's like this - we ae saved by grace through faith for good works.

that is the order- salvation is from God the Father through Christ the Son, we have faith, trust ( belief ) in Him, and then we are empowered by the Holy Sprit to do good works.

Amen. We are not born again, regenerated by doing good deeds.


However, I will point out that we must obey the Gospel, by repenting;
Turning to God.



JLB
 
Oct 31, 2015
1,807
473
83
but, obeying does NOT , NOT , NOT , produce or maintain salvation.

How about is we disobey His commandments, say, the one He says to forgive?


Looks look at what He taught us about that.



Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.” Matthew 18:32-35


If we refused to forgive wouldn’t that be transgressing the doctrine (teaching) of Christ.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
2 John 9



JLB
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
8,490
4,781
113
How about is we disobey His commandments, say, the one He says to forgive?


Looks look at what He taught us about that.



Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.” Matthew 18:32-35


If we refused to forgive wouldn’t that be transgressing the doctrine (teaching) of Christ.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
2 John 9



JLB
Hmm... So YOUR salvation depends on YOU forgiving others. I am beyond grateful My Salvation depends on CHRIST forgiving me because of HIS Blood and Righteousness!

What Jesus is saying is DESCRIPTIVE NOT PRESCRIPTIVE of what a Born Again Child of God WILL do.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,259
113
If you can identify all this about my post why didn't you see the heart of the message?

I answered plainly then explained my answer. The answer isn't a simple yes or no. The Spirit does not use the law for righteousness sake, but the law is of the Spirit. God writes his law upon our hearts through the Spirit. They are all observed through faith. And the works they produced are not our own.
To try and divide the two pitting one against the other is where many go astray.
But righteousness is offered apart from works of the law. It's attained through faith.
My question was a simple yes or no and your defensiveness is unwanted. Your final statement is what I was asking you to clarify and I will thank you for that.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
7,699
3,637
113
Amen. We are not born again, regenerated by doing good deeds.


However, I will point out that we must obey the Gospel, by repenting;
Turning to God.



JLB
repenting means a change of mind , which will lead to a change in behavior.

it's all about belief.

salvation is a gift. the minute you attach a " have to ' to it, then you just made it about you. it's not about you.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
How about is we disobey His commandments, say, the one He says to forgive?


Looks look at what He taught us about that.



Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.” Matthew 18:32-35


If we refused to forgive wouldn’t that be transgressing the doctrine (teaching) of Christ.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
2 John 9



JLB
I see you got a thumbs down.
Posters here say that we SHOULD obey....
but when we get right down to it,,,it's not what they believe.

I think nowadays it's called "faith only"....
You just need to "believe"...whatever that means to anybody...
and are not required to do anything else,,,
including:
not obeying the gospel of Christ.

When a person that calls himself Christian can easily say that
obeying Jesus DOES NOT keep one saved...I'd say the church is in
a sorry state of affairs.

Many have died for our faith.
Now, some are not even willing to proclaim that obedience is necessary.
 

WalkingTree

Active member
Jan 13, 2019
168
100
43
My question was a simple yes or no and your defensiveness is unwanted. Your final statement is what I was asking you to clarify and I will thank you for that.
Defeniveness? Haha hardly. But, glad I could help you keep track who agrees with you or not. Must keep the people neatly divided into their respective groups..... gotcha
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Hmm... So YOUR salvation depends on YOU forgiving others. I am beyond grateful My Salvation depends on CHRIST forgiving me because of HIS Blood and Righteousness!

What Jesus is saying is DESCRIPTIVE NOT PRESCRIPTIVE of what a Born Again Child of God WILL do.
YOUR salvation depends on YOU doing what JESUS said to do.
If forgiving others is one of those deeds, then you are required to do it.
God does not make requests.

Mathew 6:14-15
14“For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15“But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions. "


Jesus said it's necessary to forgive...
You seem to be happy that YOU are saved.
Does your salvation require you to follow the teachings of Christ?

James 1:22
22But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.