Not By Works

safswan · Feb 2, 2019

All of the theories about "claims" of faith and "bare profession" of faith would have been reasonable without the use of certain definitive statements and Abraham as an example.

"...can faith save him?"(James 2:14)

No qualification,no limiting clauses.Just plain faith like that of Abraham.

Of Abraham he said:

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"(James 2:21)

Was Abraham a mere/bare,claiming professor?Was his faith real?Why was he justified by works as stated above?

Jesus also clearly taught the same in the following passage:

"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."(John 8:31,32)

Paul :

"Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance."(Acts 26:19,20)

"And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ."(Acts 20:20,21)

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"(Romans 6:1,2)

What if those who believe in Jesus do not continue in His word?Are they still His disciples?What if they continue in sin and do not repent and do the works which are appropriate for a repentant person?Will their belief in Christ allow them to be saved?

dcontroversal · Feb 2, 2019

lightbearer said:

Amen!

Real Faith comes from GOD through Christ.

It is GOD that works in us both to will and do HIS good pleasure. For we are dead nevertheless we live. Yet not us but Christ liveth in us. And the LIFE we now live in the flesh we live by the FAITH of Christ. For we have put on Christ. (Gal 2:20,3:22)

But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above: ) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word (Christ) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; For Christ (the word in the heart and mouth) is the end of the law (on tables of Stone and parchment) for righteousness to every one that believeth. .
(Rom 10:4-8 KJV)

You amen a false post that leaves off the word THAT .....but hey....par for the course around here....

mailmandan · Feb 2, 2019

Guojing said:

Yes. In Luke 23:43, we read that the thief on the cross said this to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” In verse 43, Jesus said to him “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

In Matthew 27:39-43, we see that those who passed by, along with the chief priests scribes and elders blashemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus and even the robbers who were crucified with Him reviled Him with the same thing. *Yet, moments later, we see that one of the thieves had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved (Luke 23:40-43). There was not enough time to accomplish multiple works, yet the thief acknowledged his guilt, defended Jesus and placed his faith in Him and was saved. That was enough - John 6:29.

In Matthew 12:37, Jesus said - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words reveal the condition of our hearts. Words are evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness, as we see below.

Luke 23:39 - Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.” - by your words you will be condemned.

Luke 23:40 - But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” - by your words you will be justified.

dcontroversal · Feb 2, 2019

mailmandan said:

You believe these people....Satan is working overtime and I have never seen a bunch of more dishonest people as I have seen on this site....they leave off words, disregard verbiage, verb tense, context, deny what you actually say and twist it into their own context, use deception like Burger King uses mustard and then amen and support fallacies and absolute fraudulent posts that have about as much truth as a man on death row saying he didn't do it.........

WOW

safswan · Feb 2, 2019

mailmandan said:

I have stated in a previous response to you,that in using Abraham as an example and in the plain question asked about faith, James was not speaking about any mere claim of faith but about persons who really believed but then all they had was this belief.But even if this was as you claim then what is it that separates mere/professing faith from real faith?Do you even realise what you are proposing?

You ask:

"Do you interpret "justified by works" to mean "saved by works" in the context of James 2:14-24 in contradiction to Romans 4:2-6?

"

That is your problem;you are interpreting instead of understanding and accepting.No need to interpret,I accept what James says and it does not contradict the complete teaching of Paul.Only when you and many others here use the scriptures as the devil did with Jesus is there apparent contradiction.

dcontroversal · Feb 2, 2019

safswan said:

James is not teaching a works based justification before God no matter how much you twist it and or peddle your false religion....and while I am there...You are leaving off the word "THAT" which is applied to the faith James is speaking of........but hey...I fully expect you to reject and ride your horse to the many group that JESUS speaks to.......

THEREFORE we CONCLUDE that a man is JUSTIFIED BY FAITH without the deeds/works of the LAW

I suggest honesty with the above verse and quit pitting JAMES against the bible.....in the end it will take you some place you do not wish to go......

dcontroversal · Feb 2, 2019

safswan said:

Your problem is you are peddling religion and not being honest with verb tense, verbiage, context and the truth......

Therefore we CONCLUDE that a MAN IS JUSTIFIED by faith without the DEEDS/WORKS of the LAW.......

You remind me of a past member that was banned......you speak the same way, same style and use the same verbiage............................

safswan · Feb 2, 2019

UnderGrace said:

Awful sounding and quite contrary to what Jesus said:

"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."(John 8:31,32)

dcontroversal · Feb 2, 2019

safswan said:

You obviously have no understanding of the word disciple....and or SALVATION.............look the words up and understand that they are not the same word and how the first FOLLOWS the second...one is BY FAITH the other a process of transformation and daily sanctification.............but in your case you conflate both into some pseudo religious soup that taints both

justpassinthrough · Feb 2, 2019

gb9 said:

Brother I would say things like that if I were you.

That’s the doctrine of Christ.

We are born again, regenerated, saved, made alive spiritually, by grace through faith.

We are now born again.

Those who are born again and have received the Holy Spirit, now have the ability to be led by the Spirit; to walk according to the righteous desires of the Holy Spirit, by expressing love.

It is our choice, to either walk according to the Spirit or walk according and thereby practice righteousness or to walk according to the flesh and practice the works of the flesh.

Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21

those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Romans 8:1

who do not walk according to the flesh

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

For if you live according to the flesh you will die;
if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:22-23

having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

At the end of a life as a slave of God, whereby we bear fruit unto holiness, we will inherit eternal life.

JPT

mailmandan · Feb 2, 2019

safswan said:

It's not a theory. James 2:14 plainly reads - "says" he has faith (NKJV, ESV, NASB). Other translations say "claims" (AMP, CSB, NIV).

Can that faith save him? (NASB) What kind of faith is that? -- Empty profession of faith/dead faith.

"Says-claims" to have faith is not the same thing as saying actually does have authentic faith like Abraham. So you disregard "says-claims" to have faith in James 2:14 and instead, modify it to mean "actually does have faith" but produces no works? It sounds to me like you teach salvation by works.

Of course Abraham's faith was real and he showed that his faith was real by his works, just as all genuine believers do (James 2:18). In regards to James 2:21, go back and read post #83,329. "Justified by works" does not mean saved by works in the context of James 2:21. As I already stated, James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

Jesus also clearly taught the same in the following passage:

Yes, if you continue in My word, then you are TRULY disciples of Mine. (NASB) *Those who do not continue were not TRULY disciples of Christ. *Also, in John 8:31-59, notice that the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turned out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of authentic belief resulting in salvation," as demonstrated in John 8:31-59. We also see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them. The demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" (James 2:19) but they are not saved.

Paul was certainly not disobedient to the heavenly vision and preached the gospel everywhere he went. When we repent, we turn to God and works which follow are the fruit of repentance (Matthew 3:8) but not the means of our salvation. Verse 18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

Amen! Notice the order - ..repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Who said anything about continuing in sin that grace may abound?

No need for oxymorons or straw man arguments. Genuine believers continue in His word, have already repented and believe in Christ for salvation.

justpassinthrough · Feb 2, 2019

dcontroversal said:

We are born again, regenerated, saved, made alive spiritually, by grace through faith.

We are now born again.

Those who are born again and have received the Holy Spirit, now have the ability to be led by the Spirit; to walk according to the righteous desires of the Holy Spirit, by expressing love.

It is our choice, to either walk according to the Spirit or walk according to the flesh and thereby practice righteousness or to practice the works of the flesh.

- Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21

those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

who do not walk according to the flesh

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

For if you live according to the flesh you will die;
if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23

having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

At the end of a life as a slave of God, whereby we bear fruit unto holiness, we will inherit eternal life.

JPT

safswan · Feb 2, 2019

UnderGrace said:

Yes you are on the right track here in that the book of James is definitely not a contrast between mere faith and real faith.
This causes a lot of problems.

James 2 18-19 are the words of an Objector that James is setting up..... and need to be read together...we know this because he says clearly....Yea a man may say...

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

What James is arguing is that faith which Abraham and Rehab had (as already justified by God people) can be seen by works

The objector is saying that faith cannot be seen by works....that is the whole point of James, is to say yes we can show our faith by our works

James is addressing people who are saved (have been justified by God) and he is not dealing with people who have the same faith as demons which is just plan silly.

Amen.Thank you for explaining this much better than I have.

justpassinthrough · Feb 2, 2019

stonesoffire said:

And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:29

JPT

mailmandan · Feb 2, 2019

safswan said:

James clearly stated in James 2:14 "says-claims" to have faith.. yet you disregard that, so you are the one with the problem. *I properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine, as I demonstrated with James 2:21 and Romans 4:2-3.

The harmony of James 2:21 and Romans 4:2-3 is seen in the differing way that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term is referring to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the believer as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would show the evidence of their faith by the works that they do.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

gb9 · Feb 2, 2019

justpassinthrough said:

We are born again, regenerated, saved, made alive spiritually, by grace through faith.

We are now born again.

Those who are born again and have received the Holy Spirit, now have the ability to be led by the Spirit; to walk according to the righteous desires of the Holy Spirit, by expressing love.

It is our choice, to either walk according to the Spirit or walk according to the flesh and thereby practice righteousness or to practice the works of the flesh.

- Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21

those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

who do not walk according to the flesh

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

For if you live according to the flesh you will die;
if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23

having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

At the end of a life as a slave of God, whereby we bear fruit unto holiness, we will inherit eternal life.

JPT

I agree with this.

but, a person will manifest the Fruits of the Sprit because they are born again, not to earn or maintain salvation.

eternally-gratefull · Feb 2, 2019

safswan said:

No, he is refering to his type of faith, a faith he called dead,

Are we saved by a living faith or dead faith (also known as mere belief)?

eternally-gratefull · Feb 2, 2019

safswan said:

Or maybe you could show me where i misunderstood so i can answer you correctly, instead of acting this way.

eternally-gratefull · Feb 2, 2019

Guojing said:

The thief had a work, he showed proof of repentance by what he said.

lightbearer · Feb 2, 2019

dcontroversal said:

Your bitter judgmental accusatory mannerism has already been noted, Thanks anyway.

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