Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
For by GRACE ARE YOU SAVED THROUGH FAITH, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the GIFT OF GOD, NOT OF WORKS lest any man should boast....

How plain is that....that NOT OF YOURSELVES IS GRAMMATICALLY directed at the Faith that SAVES.....

It is clearly NOT OF WORKS.....again...how much clearer can it be...our works have ZERO to do with biblical salvation....it is FAITH THAT SAVES and FAITH THAT IS NOT OF US!

Those who push works make me think of a bat with no echo location....fully blind to the truth!
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
I'll do that and God bless you bro.
Good.....amen and the heavenly chorus sang........two cannot walk together unless agreed...we will never agree as long as you push works and the ability to lose salvation...end of story
 
Last edited:

JohnTalmid

Senior Member
Mar 17, 2017
516
44
28
For by GRACE ARE YOU SAVED THROUGH FAITH, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the GIFT OF GOD, NOT OF WORKS lest any man should boast....

How plain is that....that NOT OF YOURSELVES IS GRAMMATICALLY directed at the Faith that SAVES.....

It is clearly NOT OF WORKS.....again...how much clearer can it be...our works have ZERO to do with biblical salvation....it is FAITH THAT SAVES and FAITH THAT IS NOT OF US!

Those who push works make me think of a bat with no echo location....fully blind to the truth!
That'd be great but....
we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good
works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. ...
And you yourself must be an example to them by doing good works of every kind. ...
showing yourself to be an example of good works in every way
but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. ... but with
good works, as is proper for women who affirm that they worship God. ...
And let our people learn to devote themselves to good works, so as
to help cases of urgent need, and not be unfruitful. ...
Let us think of ways to motivate one another to acts of love and good works.
 
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
168
0
I have used scripture....sorry if your blind to it....let me try again..works do not save, keep saved or maintain salvation....salvation is by faith thru grace and is a free GIFT....works or grace..not both...one or the other!
This is your view on faith, amen. The thing that is missing is empathy with those who see things
differently.

The problem with words they can mean the main concept but with hidden conditions.
A simple one is 'do not kill.'
It means killing outside of war, self defense, execution of civil justice.

So salvation comes by faith, a response shown by repentance of sins, confession, and trust
in the cross. Obedience is also a choice of the will, which should flow because of faith.

Faith by its nature is walking into that which is invisible. I have found taking the step is my
expression of faith, which is very much my response to Gods word in my heart, rather than God
flowing despite my will.

So to talk as if this is a passive relationship, is not what I see or know.

When you post dc, it is you responding not Christ, so in your world this is your flesh so evil.
When am I going to hear Christ speaking in you and not just your beliefs, but the word of
God?

If there is no space in the relationship for you, you will have a hard time. When you get out
of bed, how does Christ do it through you? Do you obey because of verbal commands,
or just relax and He takes over, or is this just words and it is just you all along?
 
Last edited:
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
That'd be great but....
we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good
works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. ...
And you yourself must be an example to them by doing good works of every kind. ...
showing yourself to be an example of good works in every way
but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. ... but with
good works, as is proper for women who affirm that they worship God. ...
And let our people learn to devote themselves to good works, so as
to help cases of urgent need, and not be unfruitful. ...
Let us think of ways to motivate one another to acts of love and good works.
No one has said we are not to do the works.....saved UNTO...not BY.....and Paul was clear....those who say one must have faith and then works to cap the deal peddle a false gospel with no power to save, one that is double cursed...as a matter of fact he calls them fools and bewitched!
 

JohnTalmid

Senior Member
Mar 17, 2017
516
44
28
One more...
but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father. ... Jesus
said, "At my Father's direction I have done many good works. ...
 
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
168
0
Absurd ideas

Do I take the rubbish out because I know it needs to be done, a consequence of faith in
the rubbish truck, or because it is rubbish day? Does it matter? Is one behaviour good
or the other evil, or is the discussion absurd?

Judgement comes because of sin not good righteous actions.
Cornelius was neither a Jew or believer yet God knew of him and praised his approach to
life. God sees the good and evil in people and desires to bring all to salvation.

Faith without love is a hard thing to bare, the problem is the lack of heart of love and not
self righteousness. The righteousness deceives many, but it is the hardness of heart
and sin that demonstrates the failure within. One can throw away the show, but without
love you are in a worse place than before. This is why I was surprised at the response
from those who claim true spiritual insight, yet lacked the very thing they claimed they
had.

Love is God in our hearts, it is the sign of His presence, and knowing we are co-heirs with
Christ, raised from death to life. A holy people redeemed from the world, transformed to
demonstrate what love living in the heart of man can do. Amen
 
Last edited:
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
168
0
There is a proverb about resisting the truth until finally it breaks through.
Unfortunately the person is broken beyond repair.

Compare the person you love most, and then ask do you love others in less
of a way?

Jesus says to us, love them all like this and more. You may feel like this is a burden,
but actually it is because you do not see them as they are, you just get in the way with
all the hurts and history of ones past. Starting to know the truth within alongside the
cross, knowing God knows, loves and forgives you is healing eternal. But you have to
go there and see and believe it. He knows and does not turn away.

He is God, the Lord who made us, and knows our deepest hurts, our anger, our rage,
our desires, and shows us love and acceptance, so that we can be healed, and know
love in us flowing to others. So profound, so life changing, the cross.
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
James 2:14-20

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


1 John 2:3-4

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.



James 1:22 - But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.


Hebrews 12:11 - Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Proverbs 12:1 - Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof [is] brutish.

2 Timothy 3:16 - All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Proverbs 15:32 - He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul: but he that heareth reproof getteth understanding


John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments.

revelation 3:55 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


rev 3 :12 / 15-17
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:


Matthew 7:21-23

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Proverbs 24:16-18

16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

17 Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth:

18 Lest the Lord see it, and it displease him, and he turn away his wrath from him.
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
1,386
54
48
Absurd ideas

Do I take the rubbish out because I know it needs to be done, a consequence of faith in
the rubbish truck, or because it is rubbish day? Does it matter? Is one behaviour good
or the other evil, or is the discussion absurd?

Judgement comes because of sin not good righteous actions.
Cornelius was neither a Jew or believer yet God knew of him and praised his approach to
life. God sees the good and evil in people and desires to bring all to salvation.

Faith without love is a hard thing to bare, the problem is the lack of heart of love and not
self righteousness. The righteousness deceives many, but it is the hardness of heart
and sin that demonstrates the failure within. One can throw away the show, but without
love you are in a worse place than before. This is why I was surprised at the response
from those who claim true spiritual insight, yet lacked the very thing they claimed they
had.

Love is God in our hearts, it is the sign of His presence, and knowing we are co-heirs with
Christ, raised from death to life. A holy people redeemed from the world, transformed to
demonstrate what love living in the heart of man can do. Amen
Amen to that bro.
 
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
168
0
No one has said we are not to do the works.....saved UNTO...not BY.....and Paul was clear....those who say one must have faith and then works to cap the deal peddle a false gospel with no power to save, one that is double cursed...as a matter of fact he calls them fools and bewitched!
What happens to you when this extreme view you are pushing fails?
What will you have left?

The danger of painting your enemy too harshly is when you discover you are
painting yourself.

One of the biggest things psychologists discovered is the thing people hate
most in the world is often the thing they deny they have but see it everywhere
in the world around them. It is called projecting and walling off emotion from
the heart. The two most common walled off emotions are anger and sexual
desire. The individual sees none of these things in themselves but everywhere
around them.

One indication of such a behaviour is when the expressions become so extreme
without pause of balance.

And the argument is never going to be won because there is no balance involved,
it is about denial inside by the speaker.

And what is an extreme position? To call a believer a fool. It undermines ones own
faith and everything about it, it is like standing on an anti-personal mine and claiming
you are stopping the enemy from causing trouble. Opppppps

Now if one was an atheist, it would be a consistent approach, because they deny
all spiritual authority.
 
Last edited:

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
70,920
9,669
113
What extreme view is Dcon pushing? The one that says that works do not save us, keep us saved, or get us to heaven? That's the only view he CAN push, because it's God's Word. :)

Dcon calls them fools because that is what THE BIBLE calls them. It is foolish to believe that our works can get us to heaven. Especially when works don't save us to begin with. The name of the man who died on the cross is JESUS. His name is NOT "Works".. :/
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Hi EG.

I actually liked PJ's response so not sure if I am next in the firing line.

I read PJ's post as saying faith is not enough but genuine faith will be reflected in our walk.

I know he didn't say it that way, he said "it needs to be reflected"

PJ correct me if you think I am wrong, I think you were saying "will be rather than needs to be"

As for me genuine faith will be reflected in our work.
Hey bill,

I wish you were right, I would be so happy. But sadly Peter and many of us have been having this conversation for months. Look at his ops. He wrote one which said the cross was not enough, He teaches that our works are required. thayt if we lose faith and turn to sin we will lose salvation.

I have tried to show him how all true faith will carry works, But he fights me on it.. He declared war on me, I usually ignore him, But decided I wanted to comment on something he said.

Anyway, Your good bro..
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
One more...
but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father. ... Jesus
said, "At my Father's direction I have done many good works. ...
The good works are from the father not of his own self. Its called the will of the Father. The will that the son willfully obeyed as the father worked in Christ to both and will his good purpose. “Imputed righteousness”. It’s the kind of food the disciples knew not of.

It would seem you are looking at faith and turning it upside down as if Christ’s faith was of us. We are saved by Christ's work of faith as a labor of His love. So then we are saved by works but not in respect to our own lest any boast and therefore in the end of the matter commit blasphemy.(attributing the work of Christ to their own selves)
 
Apr 30, 2016
5,162
75
0
I need not prove anything to one who does not even understand biblical salvation PAL....The only sin not covered and dealt with is unbelief...go read what the Holy Spirit convinces and convicts of when it comes to sin....and just to show how how much you miss the mark...

Samson

a. Killed himself by suicide
b. Asked for the strength from God to do it and to avenge himself upon the Philistines
c. Killed 7000 Philistines in the process

NO MATTER how you twist, reject and or deny the bible does not teach the loss of salvation....and if it can be lost NO ONE is saved because to break one of the least of the commandments of GOD makes one guilty of the whole....so...to quantify sins into a nice little box or two so as to justify the loss of salvation reeks of ignorance....PAL!
Seohce understands biblical salvation much much better than YOU ever will.
I can assure you of that.
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
What extreme view is Dcon pushing? The one that says that works do not save us, keep us saved, or get us to heaven? That's the only view he CAN push, because it's God's Word. :)

Dcon calls them fools because that is what THE BIBLE calls them. It is foolish to believe that our works can get us to heaven. Especially when works don't save us to begin with. The name of the man who died on the cross is JESUS. His name is NOT "Works".. :/
because the strange way he speaks for awhile
i felt he was a liar and the truth is not in him

i thought he justifys sin

i thought he tries to say you can be the same creature and live in sin after being renewed in Jesus christ


but

after awhile and closer inspection
and a little conversation

hes just saying (to my understanding)

works dont produce salvation
and that is true

at its most basic form
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
Absurd ideas

Do I take the rubbish out because I know it needs to be done, a consequence of faith in
the rubbish truck, or because it is rubbish day? Does it matter? Is one behaviour good
or the other evil, or is the discussion absurd?

Judgement comes because of sin not good righteous actions.
Cornelius was neither a Jew or believer yet God knew of him and praised his approach to
life. God sees the good and evil in people and desires to bring all to salvation.

Faith without love is a hard thing to bare, the problem is the lack of heart of love and not
self righteousness. The righteousness deceives many, but it is the hardness of heart
and sin that demonstrates the failure within. One can throw away the show, but without
love you are in a worse place than before. This is why I was surprised at the response
from those who claim true spiritual insight, yet lacked the very thing they claimed they
had.

Love is God in our hearts, it is the sign of His presence, and knowing we are co-heirs with
Christ, raised from death to life. A holy people redeemed from the world, transformed to
demonstrate what love living in the heart of man can do. Amen
Sounds like blashphemy having the faith of Christ according to the work of Christ in respect to one's own self.(no grace)

Do I take the rubbish out because I know it needs to be done, a consequence of faith in
the rubbish truck, or because it is rubbish day? Does it matter? Is one behaviour good
or the other evil, or is the discussion absurd?

It matters whose will according to whose faith.

We are saved by the faith of Christ according to the work of Christ, called the work of faith. Not the human kind of faith which is referred to in the scriptures as “no faith” in respect to their own mind like taking out the trash. Taking out the trash will not paid the eternal debt of sin