Not By Works

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Mar 14, 2011
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i added an A and B to make it easier for me to respond


A) I do know what belief means and what it means to believe. Do you?

B) I do know what the law is.... but you don't seem to understand what it is for....


1. How much obedience does your definition of belief require?


2. You believe your salvation depends on how well you uphold the commandments? Would you share with me what you believe the cut off point to be?
I thought you responded to yourself!! I had to open all posts to see there was someone elses post in their also :ROFL:
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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HI MMD,,,
You got three likes....I wonder why.

First of all, I keep saying how we can't go by the Greek because we're IGNORANT about it.

There are varied translations of the above.
Try finding out if you could undersand what this means for example:
It's Luke 15:32 what you're speaking of:

εὐφρανθῆναι δὲ καὶ χαρῆναι ἔδει ὅτι ὁ ἀδελφός σου οὗτος νεκρὸς ἦν καὶ ἀνέζησεν καὶ ἀπολωλὼς ἦν, καὶ εὑρέθη

Then could you come back and tell us exactly what it means?
That would be great.

Second of all,,,it's obvious you don't trust English and the translators.
Maybe you should REALLY study Greek and Koine Greek and start reading the bible in Greek.
I'm serious.....

Third....The son was a son....so he had to have been saved before he got lost.
You and some others keep saying that being a son is forever...
so if the Prodigal was a SON,,,he had to have been SAVED BEFORE he became lost.

You can't have it both way and you've skirted around this issue before with no reply to me.

So... Is a son saved or not?
If he comes back and Jesus SAYS he was lost....Is Jesus lying?
And let's get your take on that Greek up there.

Thanks.
More than three now. ;) You are making the Greek out to be more complicated than it really is and it’s not about me not trusting English translators.

*You need to consider the context of this parable. Jesus was addressing the Scribes and Pharisees, so saved son/lost salvation/regained salvation is not the issue. This was Previously discussed in a different thread below:

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/the-prodigal-son-examined.182148/
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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You ask away.
Never feel worried to ask.
I'd much rather that way
You only have to ask DC how many times I ask about Romans 7.

Surprised he ain't shot me yet to put me out of my misery.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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I will go on the record to say that anyone who claims "salvation must be earned" as Fran has, is lost.
Interesting.

What are your thoughts concerning the following?


1 Corinthians 3:12-17
12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

Does the above include doctrine?
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
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The itsy TWISTY spider...

...For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. THEY ARE GODLESS MEN, WHO CHANGE THE GRACE OF OF OUR GOD INTO A LICENSE FOR IMMORALITY and DENY Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. Jude 1:4

...They claim to know God, but by THEIR ACTIONS they DENY Him. They are detestable, DISOBEDIENT and UNFIT for doing anything good. Titus 1:16

Look who's talking about HONESTY.

...We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is A LIAR, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. 1 John 2:3-6

Do you not CALL EVIL GOOD and GOOD EVIL? (Isaiah 5:20-24)

Is it RIGHT to OBEY God?

Do you not insult and call the views of those who promote OBEDIENCE to God as IDIOTIC?

It's funny how your group can say that only genuine believers would OBEY God and those who promote OBEDIENCE to God are LOST, UNBELIEVERS, FALSE, DECEIVER, NOT SAVED TO BEGIN WITH and many other discriminating NEGATIVE remarks.

And when you are called out, you will accuse them of SLANDER and start bullying those who disagree with you.

But scriptures fortold of these kind of people and behaviour.

.. Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage. But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit. Jude 1:14-19

...If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain. 1 Timothy 6:3-5

...Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. HE WHO DOES WHAT IS RIGHT IS RIGHTEOUS, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.

IS IT RIGHT TO OBEY GOD or not?

Are you an instrument of God's righteousness or do you just BELIEVE and let God do everything for you?

Who now is the LORD, you?...and who is your servant, GOD?

....“You have said harsh things against me,” says the Lord. “Yet you ask, ‘What have we said against you?’ “You have said, ‘IT IS FUTILE TO SERVE GOD. What did we gain by CARRYING OUT HIS REQUIREMENTS and going about like mourners before the Lord Almighty? But now we call the arrogant blessed. Certainly the evildoers prosper, and even those who challenge God escape.’” Then THOSE WHO FEARED THE LORD talked with each other, and the Lord listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning those who feared the Lord and honored his name. “They will be mine,” says the Lord Almighty, “in the day when I make up my treasured possession. I WILL SPARE THEM, just as in compassion a man spares HIS SON WHO SERVES HIM. And you will again see the DISTINCTION between the RIGHTEOUS and the WICKED, between those who SERVE GOD and those who do not. Malachi 3:13-18

...God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him WE MIGHT BECOME THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD. 2 Corinthians 5:21
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
keep laughing .

I hope some of enjoy playing games and making light of God's word.

this is not a game to me. I am not here to laugh and carry on about God's word, making light of it.
some of you need some serious repentance and attitude adjustment.
There is the "Adjustment Bureau".......hehehe

.jpg

Here are the plans for the Adjustment Bureau, this looks a lot like their "salvation plan" when I read their posts.....hehehe


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star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
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What a mess this world is coming to. For those of you who believe in "works" for and to keep salvation, what have you been doing lately?
 
Oct 31, 2015
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yet you keep rejecting truth that in this parable the sheep is saved, it is the Shepherd's sheep. ^ MY lost sheep.

You have me mixed up with someone else.


I’m the one saying that that all 100 sheep belong to the shepherd.


They are His sheep.


So if you agree with me that “my sheep” refers to born again Christians, then that is great.


We agree.


My question was not whether the sheep were His sheep, or whether that refers to Christians.


My question was: Do the lost need salvation?



Does a sheep that wanders away from the Lord and become lost, need salvation?



It’s very simple.


Yes or No?




JPT
 
Oct 31, 2015
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What a mess this world is coming to. For those of you who believe in "works" for and to keep salvation, what have you been doing lately?


What do you call a person who claims Jesus as Lord, but doesn’t obey Him?




He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4





JPT
 
Mar 14, 2011
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What do you call a person who claims Jesus as Lord, but doesn’t obey Him?




He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4





JPT
A liar
Unsaved
Never knew God
Never been saved
A wannabe
Decieved
Lost
Satans Child

i can think of many more I am sure

WHat I will never call him

A child of God who lost his childship and is no longer a child of God
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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What do you call a person who claims Jesus as Lord, but doesn’t obey Him?




He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4





JPT

You do know there is a difference between do and keep don't you? One is a result of legalism, rules, outward. The other from the heart. The new heart.
 
Feb 24, 2019
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This makes no sense

The sheppard did not wait for the sheep to tepent, THEN go,find him

He went and found him and the sheep followed. Because the sheep knew his voice,

Makes perfect sense to me.... especially when put into context

And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost. I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Luke 15:6‭-‬7 KJV

Most of This chapter is dealing with lost things........ remember Jesus is teaching us........told about a lost sheep and said "likewise'.....

God wouldn't use a lie to teach us the truth
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
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... I ask then: DID GOD REJECT HIS PEOPLE? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, as it is written: “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day.” And David says: “May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them. May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever.” Ingrafted Branches Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. Romans 11:1-16

The Prodigal son is ISRAEL and that's it.

What we Gentiles who now are CHRISTIANS have to do is to thank and praise God for His Grace and Mercy and for using people like the apostle Paul in leading us to OBEY GOD.

...I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has ACCOMPLISHED THROUGH ME in LEADING THE GENTILES TO OBEY GOD by what I have said and done— Romans 15:1-18
 
Feb 24, 2019
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Sounds like you are arguing against calvinism here

Most of us are not calvinist, we are free will believers.

Trying to discuss things with a non calvinist using anti calvinist tactics will just cause more confusion. I could be wrong, but the robot comment, never heard anyone use this outside of a calvinist debate
Didn't have calvenist in mind.....just giving NNM some scriptures about obeying God from earlier
 
Feb 24, 2019
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asked what thyou difference between a dead son and a dead non son was. You never answered, again, your stuck on the word dead
Sorry I missed this question

I think your question it's self validates my point......there is no difference in a dead son and a non son or a lost son.....neither can enjoy anything the father, his house etc .......

Again remember the point of the parable and its context he is talking about lost sinners
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Makes perfect sense to me.... especially when put into context

And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost. I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Luke 15:6‭-‬7 KJV

Most of This chapter is dealing with lost things........ remember Jesus is teaching us........told about a lost sheep and said "likewise'.....

God wouldn't use a lie to teach us the truth
Still makes no sense

The Shepard goes to get the lost sheep.

Again, He did not wait for the lost sheep to repent.

even in your passage, it did not say he was unsaved, It said he was a sheep. He was not a goat (again, looking at the true son vs the non son)

I am sure when I came back, Everyone rejoiced also. Because I was lost. with no hope (in this lifetime) if I kept going the way I was going). But I was not unsaved..
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Sorry I missed this question

I think your question it's self validates my point......there is no difference in a dead son and a non son or a lost son.....neither can enjoy anything the father, his house etc .......

Again remember the point of the parable and its context he is talking about lost sinners
Yet there is a difference

the son is a child

the non son is not a relative

While your right, Neither can enjoy the blessings while living

One has no hope whatsoever, the other is still the fathers son. and will have the joy of an eternity with his father
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
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Earning salvation and lost? Are these ideas that fit together?
Sounds like a check box faith.

Do you earn friendship by waiting for your friend, or you show your friendship by waiting for your friend?
The friendship exists, but it could be fake if you do not wait, and you pretended to be a friend, even to
yourself, but when the cost comes you leave.

So language and expression can be two different things. Jesus talked about this in a parable.

There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work today in the vineyard.'
"'I will not,' he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.
"Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, 'I will, sir,' but he did not go.
"Which of the two did what his father wanted?The first," they answered.
Matt 21:28-31

Only at the end do you find out who did what was asked and who did not.

Many say I believe in Jesus, He will raise me from the dead, but I do not believe He can change me to
walk as He walked. No one can believe that. But maybe that is what Jesus meant by if you believe in
the Son. You believe He can raise you from the dead but not change you will you walk the earth and
are alive? Which is easier to do? Do you believe only one type of promise when both you have no
control over their fulfilment.