Not By Works

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stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,653
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Not even what I am REFUTING. I am REFUTING the following proposition, and have been the whole time

Here is the statement I disagree with..

"It takes a period of growth and maturity to bear ANYTHING" (ie fruit)

Do you agree with this, that a believer has to grow and mature a bit to bear ANY fruit
My GB9 is moving the goalposts. again. That's ALL he has. That and adhominems

If you doubt anyone said the above quote, ask GB9. He couldn't believe it either till I showed it to him

I don't care about the point anymore, but pointing out bad argumentation. See other posts I posted this morning
Positionally, we receive salvation. Then experientially, we live it by faith. Yes, it takes time but the time frame is different for us all.

Paul gave a lot of instruction in his letters. Why? Gentiles were pagan in their life and knew nothing about morality.

Sometimes we get works mixed up with faith for years. The fruit of that is confusion. Unrest...and no peace. Until we "see".


Hi MMD,,,,

You see, you're idea of a descriptive idea of the gospel actually works to your detriment. (as soteriology, I mean....)
Being rather simple in how I understand the N.T. because I believe it IS to be understood in its whole....I'd never heard of this idea of descriptive and prescriptive.

Here's why Descriptive works to your disadvantage:

As you've stated...to "keep" (Greek word Tereo - guard, observe, watch over) is DESCRIPTIVE of someone who is a follower of Christ.

It is DEMONSTRATIVE evidence of having come to know Him --- 1 John 2.3.
It is the FRUIT of salvation.

I agree.

So, by default, IF someone does not "keep" (guard, OBSERVE, watch over) and does NOT DEMONSTRATE the fruits of salvation, which is the evidence of salavation....
then he must surely not be saved.

I agree.

What are the fruits of the Holy Spirit:
LOVE
JOY
PEACE
PATIENCE
KINDNESS
GOODNESS
FAITHFULNESS
GENTLENESS
SELF-CONTROL

Galatians 5:22-25

So if a person does NOT demonstrate the above qualities which are the fruit of the Spirit and born-again life....he is most probably not a true believer in Jesus.

Thanks for helping me to become aware of this concept.
We have so much to learn in our walk with God.
I disagree. The fruit of the new birth as I see it, is zeal.

Depending on instruction and the baptism of Holy Spirit, learning the ways of the Lord....the fruits of Holy Spirit are exhibited. Usually through life experiences and hearing His Voice.

No one is born mature.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
22,128
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Hi MMD,,,,

You see, you're idea of a descriptive idea of the gospel actually works to your detriment. (as soteriology, I mean....)
Being rather simple in how I understand the N.T. because I believe it IS to be understood in its whole....I'd never heard of this idea of descriptive and prescriptive.
Well now you have heard of descriptive passages of scripture and prescriptive passages of scripture. Understanding the difference is part of rightly dividing/accurately handling the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15)

Here's why Descriptive works to your disadvantage:

As you've stated...to "keep" (Greek word Tereo - guard, observe, watch over) is DESCRIPTIVE of someone who is a follower of Christ.

It is DEMONSTRATIVE evidence of having come to know Him --- 1 John 2.3.
It is the FRUIT of salvation.

I agree.
How does descriptive work to my disadvantage? You even agreed with me that to "keep" (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments is the demonstrative evidence of having come to know Him. --- 1 John 2:3.

So, by default, IF someone does not "keep" (guard, OBSERVE, watch over) and does NOT DEMONSTRATE the fruits of salvation, which is the evidence of salavation....
then he must surely not be saved.

I agree.
John goes on to explain by default, in 1 John 2:4 - The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Where people get into trouble is when they re-define "keep" His commandments to mean "sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time to all of His commandments" and/or believe they will be saved based on the merits of their best efforts to keep His commandments.

What are the fruits of the Holy Spirit:
LOVE
JOY
PEACE
PATIENCE
KINDNESS
GOODNESS
FAITHFULNESS
GENTLENESS
SELF-CONTROL

Galatians 5:22-25

So if a person does NOT demonstrate the above qualities which are the fruit of the Spirit and born-again life....he is most probably not a true believer in Jesus.
If a person never demonstrates these qualities above which are the fruit of the Spirit, then why would anyone believe they have received the Holy Spirit? Now once we become born again, we still need to grow in grace. (1 Peter 2:2; 2 Peter 3:18) Believers start out as babes in Christ and at times can act carnal, as we read in 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 - And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? *Yet Paul still refers to them as "babes in Christ" and not lost men.

If we are truly born of God, then we will grow in the Lord (some faster than others) and we will produce fruit (some more than others).

Thanks for helping me to become aware of this concept.
We have so much to learn in our walk with God.
Glad to help! :D
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
I disagree. The fruit of the new birth as I see it, is zeal.

Depending on instruction and the baptism of Holy Spirit, learning the ways of the Lord....the fruits of Holy Spirit are exhibited. Usually through life experiences and hearing His Voice.

No one is born mature.
You disagree with what the fruits of the spirit are?
You disagree with Paul?
That is your prerogative.

I like to believe all of the N.T.


Galatians 5:22... tells me what the fruits of the spirit are:

What are the fruits of the Holy Spirit:
LOVE
JOY
PEACE
PATIENCE
KINDNESS
GOODNESS
FAITHFULNESS
GENTLENESS
SELF-CONTROL
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Well now you have heard of descriptive passages of scripture and prescriptive passages of scripture. Understanding the difference is part of rightly dividing/accurately handling the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15)

How does descriptive work to my disadvantage? You even agreed with me that to "keep" (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments is the demonstrative evidence of having come to know Him. --- 1 John 2:3.

John goes on to explain by default, in 1 John 2:4 - The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Where people get into trouble is when they re-define "keep" His commandments to mean "sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time to all of His commandments" and/or believe they will be saved based on the merits of their best efforts to keep His commandments.

If a person never demonstrates these qualities above which are the fruit of the Spirit, then why would anyone believe they have received the Holy Spirit? Now once we become born again, we still need to grow in grace. (1 Peter 2:2; 2 Peter 3:18) Believers start out as babes in Christ and at times can act carnal, as we read in 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 - And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?

If we are truly born of God, then we will grow in the Lord (some faster than others) and we will produce fruit (some more than others).

Glad to help! :D
Good to know we agree.

Although,,, I don't know anyone who is sinless, perfect, and obedient 100%.
I think you must know far better Christians than I do.

So good.
We agree that those that are born again will DEMONSTRATE evidence of being born again...
which are the fruit of the Holy Spirit...if, indeed, the Holy Spirit dwells with the born again believer....

And what are those fruit?
Galatians 5:22......

These are the fruit of the Holy Spirit:
LOVE
JOY
PEACE
PATIENCE
KINDNESS
GOODNESS
FAITHFULNESS
GENTLENESS
SELF-CONTROL

:)
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,653
1,815
113
You disagree with what the fruits of the spirit are?
You disagree with Paul?
That is your prerogative.

I like to believe all of the N.T.


Galatians 5:22... tells me what the fruits of the spirit are:

What are the fruits of the Holy Spirit:
LOVE
JOY
PEACE
PATIENCE
KINDNESS
GOODNESS
FAITHFULNESS
GENTLENESS
SELF-CONTROL
Another example of putting your own thoughts into anothers post.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Another example of putting your own thoughts into anothers post.
I posted what Paul said in Galatians 5:22...he names the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Here's what YOU said:
I disagree. The fruit of the new birth as I see it, is zeal.

Depending on instruction and the baptism of Holy Spirit, learning the ways of the Lord....the fruits of Holy Spirit are exhibited. Usually through life experiences and hearing His Voice.

No one is born mature.

If you disagree...you disagree with Paul,,,not me.
If the Holy Spirit dwells within us, these are the fruit we will display.
If we need instruction...man's instruction....then HOW is it GOD WORKING IN US??



I think I understood you.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,653
1,815
113
I posted what Paul said in Galatians 5:22...he names the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Here's what YOU said:
I disagree. The fruit of the new birth as I see it, is zeal.

Depending on instruction and the baptism of Holy Spirit, learning the ways of the Lord....the fruits of Holy Spirit are exhibited. Usually through life experiences and hearing His Voice.

No one is born mature.

If you disagree...you disagree with Paul,,,not me.
If the Holy Spirit dwells within us, these are the fruit we will display.
If we need instruction...man's instruction....then HOW is it GOD WORKING IN US??



I think I understood you.
The zeal of the Lord has consumed me. This is usually how new Christians are. Even Dan who you agreed with, said we are babes initially. Can be carnal.

Fruit comes in time. The same argument that the other poster is trying to make that it's immediate.

And it's the Voice of God within who instructs, even by highlighting what is read to us. Or speaking.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
The zeal of the Lord has consumed me. This is usually how new Christians are. Even Dan who you agreed with, said we are babes initially. Can be carnal.

Fruit comes in time. The same argument that the other poster is trying to make that it's immediate.

And it's the Voice of God within who instructs, even by highlighting what is read to us. Or speaking.
Not all of us are babes initially. Those that care to hear, hear...not much instruction is necessary if we do what Paul said to do....Imitate him as he imitates Jesus.

That's how I understood my Christianity from day one.
As to carnal....you think one day you won't be carnal?
We will always be. Our flesh, or sin nature, will be with us forever.
The point is not to walk in the flesh but to walk in the spririt.
Galatians 5:16

Things we believe don't depend on what Dan says or what Dcon says.
They depend on what GOD says.

If one loves Jesus....fruit comes immediately, in one way or another.

When you love a person....you change immediately for that person.
If you don't...it means you don't love them but are only satisfying some self-need.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Nice try. But being here, conversing with people, discussing the Bible, is the OPPOSITE of keeping away. The post was directed specifically at the originator of this thread.

So not only has FollowHisSteps, and anyone else accusing him and others of being these people;
"I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. KEEP AWAY FROM THEM.
For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people."
Rom 16:17-18

But he, and perhaps you, not only refuse to KEEP AWAY FROM THEM, but actually seek them out to cause division and strife. So WHO really does that verse apply to?
So you know, I do not go to church with you or your folk, I do not witness with you or share
things in common.

But like in any spiritual market place, I witness to my Lord and His truth.
And I listen to His word and obey.

The great thing about this media, is I say my part and that is all.
My quoting of the verse was to show that this is nothing new.

People of faith who know Jesus can change them will always be a light in all the dark places.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
This is a sad post of someone who does not understand the Gospel, and I fear, lost.
Hi PennEd,

Understanding the gospel is simple. Jesus is the Son of God and He can make me like Him.
That is our faith, and the narrow path we need to walk, on step at a time.

It is clear, like night follows day, many claim to believe Jesus yet deny He has the power and
authority to transform our lives. He took 12 men and changed the world with them through
the words of Life and the Holy Spirit. Likewise He can do that with us. Do you believer?
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
10,361
6,718
113
So you know, I do not go to church with you or your folk, I do not witness with you or share
things in common.

But like in any spiritual market place, I witness to my Lord and His truth.
And I listen to His word and obey.

The great thing about this media, is I say my part and that is all.
My quoting of the verse was to show that this is nothing new.

People of faith who know Jesus can change them will always be a light in all the dark places.

YOU sought out this thread. This thread didn't seek YOU out. And then you bash the originator of a thread YOU sought out!

How is that not hypocrisy?
You are told to keep away.

You could have just as easily started your OWN thread on how hard you work to get and remain saved.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
10,361
6,718
113
Hi PennEd,

Understanding the gospel is simple. Jesus is the Son of God and He can make me like Him.
That is our faith, and the narrow path we need to walk, on step at a time.

It is clear, like night follows day, many claim to believe Jesus yet deny He has the power and
authority to transform our lives. He took 12 men and changed the world with them through
the words of Life and the Holy Spirit. Likewise He can do that with us. Do you believer?
Let's give you the benefit of the doubt here that you truly don't know what the Gospel unto Salvation is. Please note it is NOT that Jesus did miracles. It is Not that we can be obedient. It is NOT ANY kind of work to get saved, or stay saved. THIS IS IT!

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Risen Christ, Faith’s Reality
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

Now let's see what the Word says about those that try to change that Gospel in ANY way:

Galatians 1:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
YOU sought out this thread. This thread didn't seek YOU out. And then you bash the originator of a thread YOU sought out!

How is that not hypocrisy?
You are told to keep away.

You could have just as easily started your OWN thread on how hard you work to get and remain saved.
How have I bashed anyone? I have shared truth, the light of life.
And in sharing this, I was told I am deceived, a fool and cursed or similar.

I then said that believing in Christ is about believing He can transform us.
I suggested calling those who know Jesus deceived etc. indicates something else than spiritual knowledge.

It is like saying when someone jumps on you and attempts to bash your brains out, and one suggests they
have issues, it is actually you who are attacking them :ROFL::ROFL::ROFL::ROFL::ROFL::ROFL:
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
10,361
6,718
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????

Am I missing something?
Yeah. He bash DC. Then put a passage of Scripture to try and back up his bashing, only in the passage, it says if HE feels that way HE is supposed to stay away.
"I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. KEEP AWAY FROM THEM.
For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people."
Rom 16:17-18

So since he sought this thread out, and since he thinks the originator is a deceiver who divides, why isn't HE keeping away?
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
10,361
6,718
113
How have I bashed anyone? I have shared truth, the light of life.
And in sharing this, I was told I am deceived, a fool and cursed or similar.

I then said that believing in Christ is about believing He can transform us.
I suggested calling those who know Jesus deceived etc. indicates something else than spiritual knowledge.

It is like saying when someone jumps on you and attempts to bash your brains out, and one suggests they
have issues, it is actually you who are attacking them :ROFL::ROFL::ROFL::ROFL::ROFL::ROFL:
You are preaching a DIFFERENT Gospel than the one Paul said we MUST preach.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Let's give you the benefit of the doubt here that you truly don't know what the Gospel unto Salvation is. Please note it is NOT that Jesus did miracles. It is Not that we can be obedient. It is NOT ANY kind of work to get saved, or stay saved. THIS IS IT!

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Risen Christ, Faith’s Reality
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

Now let's see what the Word says about those that try to change that Gospel in ANY way:

Galatians 1:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Hi Penn,

Do you believe Jesus can transform you to be like Jesus? A simple question.

My interest is not in discussing how we are saved, or the steps to salvation, but this one question of
what does God bring about in our lives in terms of being like Jesus.
People are good at saying I am a denier of standard evangelical theology. I am not.
In a sense I would be a pietist Nazarene. And it interests me what faith is actually in.
So if you want you can discuss this particular theology, but quoting verses to show stuff does not really
cover the complex and historical character of it. Whole books have been written about it.

But single questions we can explore. So my exploration is about faith in transformation and how God
realises it to me today. And if you want to know I am not a sinless perfectionist.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,277
4,008
113
It is clear, like night follows day, many claim to believe Jesus yet deny He has the power and
authority to transform our lives. He took 12 men and changed the world with them through
the words of Life and the Holy Spirit. Likewise He can do that with us. Do you believer?
Not as many who believe Jesus but cannot believe that God loves us as much as he loves Jesus.

Not as many who do not believe that Jesus loves them as much as he loves God.

Then what we find is that such people try to earn that love.

How do they earn they love?

Jesus met with the dregs of society.
Accepted them as they are.
They knew he loved them and wanted to save them.

We must do the same as Jesus.

There is no point just telling broken hurt people to not do this and do that.
They have probably spent most of their life doing it, so a burden is just added.

People's lives are not transformed by telling them work harder or do good works.

Lives are transformed by love and acceptance.
When they see and experience that, the love God has for them, then we will transformation and trust.