Not By Works

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FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
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????

Am I missing something?
Hi Bill,

see item below, quite simple.

There is no such thing as fake faith

Let me ask you, do I have faith? Do I know Jesus?
Some say there are believers, and truly believers as far as could be reasonably defined, faithful followers
of Christ, who walk in His ways and who have been changed, transformed by God and the Holy Spirit who
are told as below
only fools and deceived believe it and double cursed deceivers peddle it
So let us look at the problem I have. Those who truly know Christ know their fellow brothers and sisters
in Christ, for we all listen, follow and obey Jesus. We are His sheep and we "love" one another.

So a brother says, no you are deceived etc. From my perspective this speaker looks and feels like a believer, speaks like
one, claims to be transformed like one, yet judges and provokes the Lords people like an enemy.
So I am forced by their example to admit there must be fake faith, simply because of the behaviour before me.

To hate and condemn the Lords people over things that are not sin, is not the fruit of the Spirit, or encouraging
walking in His ways, or uplifting the unity of the Spirit, but practising discouragement, condemnation and division.
Paul describes such as these in these terms.

"I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.
For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people."
Rom 16:17-18

So yes my friend I understand what is going on, but I wonder, how so easily with such a gospel of grace,
anyone could end up doing such things against the people of God?

But then those who are not His sheep do not follow, do not listen and do not know Him so what would one expect.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
10,361
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113
Hi Penn,

Do you believe Jesus can transform you to be like Jesus? A simple question.

My interest is not in discussing how we are saved, or the steps to salvation, but this one question of
what does God bring about in our lives in terms of being like Jesus.
People are good at saying I am a denier of standard evangelical theology. I am not.
In a sense I would be a pietist Nazarene. And it interests me what faith is actually in.
So if you want you can discuss this particular theology, but quoting verses to show stuff does not really
cover the complex and historical character of it. Whole books have been written about it.

But single questions we can explore. So my exploration is about faith in transformation and how God
realises it to me today. And if you want to know I am not a sinless perfectionist.
Of course the Holy Spirit is continuously sanctifying us. I like the imagery of the smelter removing the dross from the melting precious metal.
The smelter knows when the metal is pure, and all the garbage dross removed, when He can see His Reflection in the metal. Although we have been Fully justified, we will NOT be Fully Sanctified until we are in our New Heavenly bodies.

Although It is true that the PROCESS of Sanctification enables us to sin less, it does NOT make us sinless.

That appears to be your error.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Not as many who believe Jesus but cannot believe that God loves us as much as he loves Jesus.

Not as many who do not believe that Jesus loves them as much as he loves God.

Then what we find is that such people try to earn that love.

How do they earn they love?

Jesus met with the dregs of society.
Accepted them as they are.
They knew he loved them and wanted to save them.

We must do the same as Jesus.

There is no point just telling broken hurt people to not do this and do that.
They have probably spent most of their life doing it, so a burden is just added.

People's lives are not transformed by telling them work harder or do good works.

Lives are transformed by love and acceptance.
When they see and experience that, the love God has for them, then we will transformation and trust.
Hi Bill,

I agree with you, people are not changed through lists of actions.
What I was asking was do you believe He can change you into the likeness of Jesus?

This is a faith question, not a how question. It takes a real knowledge of Jesus and a belief
He is the Son of God and can go the impossible, even raise the dead.
So do you believe He can change you into His likeness?

My brother, you know He can, you know how much He has already done, and you know how
much He is still to do. But it takes faith and trust to believe He can complete the work He
started in us when we came to Him.

I spoke with a brother today. We were blessed together how the Lord had led him to help
people witnessing in north Africa, as an answer to prayer. It is faith and trust that drives
our eternal destination, not the hurts and pains of our past, but the glories of our futures
in Christ. Do you hear His call?
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
What does the soil represent? A person's receptivity to the Gospel. And is a person NATURALLY receptive to the Gospel, or is there a work of Grace that accompanies the planting of the sees, which is the preaching of the Gospel?
This sounds a lot like per-eminent grace?

Jesus makes no mention of preparing the soil, I try to avoid adding to the text.:)
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Of course the Holy Spirit is continuously sanctifying us. I like the imagery of the smelter removing the dross from the melting precious metal.
The smelter knows when the metal is pure, and all the garbage dross removed, when He can see His Reflection in the metal. Although we have been Fully justified, we will NOT be Fully Sanctified until we are in our New Heavenly bodies.

Although It is true that the PROCESS of Sanctification enables us to sin less, it does NOT make us sinless.

That appears to be your error.
Hi PennEd,

I have never said it makes us sinless, incapable of sin. But Jesus makes us cleansed, pure and Holy.
And if we stumble, provides a way of reconciliation. He is not a hard task master, rather a loving
Father who has given us the way to Life. What father would ignore their child when they fall while
learning to walk or deny one day they will run with abandon and not face injury.

So where is my error. The error is in those who desire to pick arguments and judging fellow believers
in the faith, because of their hurt pasts.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
10,361
6,719
113
Hi PennEd,

I have never said it makes us sinless, incapable of sin. But Jesus makes us cleansed, pure and Holy.
And if we stumble, provides a way of reconciliation. He is not a hard task master, rather a loving
Father who has given us the way to Life. What father would ignore their child when they fall while
learning to walk or deny one day they will run with abandon and not face injury.

So where is my error. The error is in those who desire to pick arguments and judging fellow believers
in the faith, because of their hurt pasts.

i would just change that He has given us Life. HE is the Way. NOT us walking in way that gets us to Eternal Life. That's an important distinction.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
You do assume a lot.:eek:

Why would I worry about loosing my faith:unsure:

Only the person who is relying on themselves, and what they do, to be saved, has to worry!!


Hi UnderGrace,

I had a vision yesterday. It was of people who were worried about losing faith, and so created a faith
were everything we certain and impossible to lose. The fear they felt about losing love was not possible
to fear any more because the love that was provided was eternal and never able to go away.

Then there were the doubters. Oh to be a doubter you must be wracked with fear of having to prove yourself
worthy of this love, and your faith must be pretend because you cannot ever rest in it.

And yet I know the love I have in Jesus and am secure and know I could never earn it, and yes I can betray
it which is why the love is even stronger still and my lips will eternally praise my Lord.

It is not fear that binds me but the love I know. It is rather those who fear losing love that are bound by the
fear which they are merely projecting on to others. God bless you, dear sister, and may the Lord heal you
of your fear of losing faith and His love, In Jesus Christs Name, Amen.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
i would just change that He has given us Life. HE is the Way. NOT us walking in way that gets us to Eternal Life. That's an important distinction.
I do not know the language that best describe such things.
Paul talks of grace, freedom from ceremonies, food, religious practises, while talking of slavery to righteousness,
loving others, fulfilling the law through the Spirit, sowing to the Spirit, dying to sinful nature.

What I am aware of is some repress fear, fear of rejection, fear of failure and make the eternal present today and
secure beyond that which we know. Fear is not sin, but part of keeping us alive. Without fear the risks we would
take would kill us. Fear is healthy, excessive fear paralyzing. A man of courage takes his fear and does things
despite it rather than not having it.

So the language of security is about fear, not freedom, insecurity and the fear of betrayal, not knowledge of being
known and loved through the cross. The cross is our security in Christ, it is His statement of eternal commitment
to His people to never leave or forsake Him. Our response is to believe He can change us.

Do you believe this?
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
You do assume a lot.:eek:
Why would I worry about loosing my faith:unsure:
Only the person who is relying on themselves, and what they do, to be saved, has to worry!!
What is your salvation dependent on?
Do you believe Jesus can change you?
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
So let us look at the problem I have. Those who truly know Christ know their fellow brothers and sisters
in Christ, for we all listen, follow and obey Jesus. We are His sheep and we "love" one another.
This will be last response.

First we either know Jesus or we do not. No need for truly it is redundant.

The real question is does Jesus know you:unsure:

Unless you are in HIM, you are not saved, and all the good works, obeying, following and beautiful sounding prose is useless.

You can be persuaded of many things, but unless you are persuaded of the right thing(truth), those many things are not biblical faith.

There is only one biblical faith, everything else has been created by men.

All of scripture is a call to right belief about God and His actions.
 
Mar 14, 2011
77,140
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113
YOU sought out this thread. This thread didn't seek YOU out. And then you bash the originator of a thread YOU sought out!

How is that not hypocrisy?
You are told to keep away.

You could have just as easily started your OWN thread on how hard you work to get and remain saved.
Hey bro, we are boycotting this user by refusing to respond, would love if you joined us,
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Of course the Holy Spirit is continuously sanctifying us.

This is the kind of phrase we all so easily use. It is as if in secret the Lord is bringing about change.
And because it is behind the scenes its speed, reach and reality is out of our influence.

But what then is the difference between an assumption and real faith, God will bring us to be like Jesus.

I ask because it is obvious some will oppose we need to be like Jesus, and mock even the suggestion
this is why we are saved and how we are meant to be as the bride of Christ.

So how do you distinguish those who have no faith in the completion of Gods work in our lives,
and those who actively desire it, follow it and wish God to carry it out as a fulfilment of salvation?

It appears to be simply believing God can do this, completely at some point, here on earth, through His
work using the power that rose Jesus from the dead.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
This will be last response.
First we either know Jesus or we do not. No need for truly it is redundant.
The real question is does Jesus know you:unsure:
Unless you are in HIM, you are not saved, and all the good works, obeying, following and beautiful sounding prose is useless.
You can be persuaded of many things, but unless you are persuaded of the right thing(truth), those many things are not biblical faith.
There is only one biblical faith, everything else has been created by men.
All of scripture is a call to right belief about God and His actions.
This is not an answer to do you believe Jesus can make you like Him.
So I would suggest your answer is No.

And therefore you will get what you believe.
Is this not the eternal justice that the living God provides?
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Hey bro, we are boycotting this user by refusing to respond, would love if you joined us,
I am not looking for responses, I am making rhetorical observations.
The whole of scripture is rhetorical. And God waits to see if we will ask and listen.
Thank you Jesus.

On the point of boycotting, thank you for showing your position, it helps me greatly :)
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,277
4,008
113
Hi Bill,

I agree with you, people are not changed through lists of actions.
What I was asking was do you believe He can change you into the likeness of Jesus?

This is a faith question, not a how question. It takes a real knowledge of Jesus and a belief
He is the Son of God and can go the impossible, even raise the dead.
So do you believe He can change you into His likeness?

My brother, you know He can, you know how much He has already done, and you know how
much He is still to do. But it takes faith and trust to believe He can complete the work He
started in us when we came to Him.

I spoke with a brother today. We were blessed together how the Lord had led him to help
people witnessing in north Africa, as an answer to prayer. It is faith and trust that drives
our eternal destination, not the hurts and pains of our past, but the glories of our futures
in Christ. Do you hear His call?
I can't recall you asking me the first question.
Further more you ask questions of me.
Obviously you do not know me and have not read my posts of past as you are new here.

But if you had done then I'm sure you would not have asked those questions.

This is a faith question, not a how question. It takes a real knowledge of Jesus and a belief
And that is the point I was trying to make.

It's not just a real knowledge of Jesus.
We all have that.
It's not just a real knowledge that Jesus died for our sin (and before I'm jumped on here I am not taking what Jesus did lightly. Without our sins being cleansed then there is no reconciliation to the Father)

Jesus dying on the cross is just the beginning.

I'm really sorry the hurts and pains of the past do not affect our futures I do not agree.
If they are not dealt with then moving forward will be very slow.

The cross is just the beginning.

Jesus came to set the prisoner free, heal the broken hearted, the lame, the blind and so on.

People can suffer such things, not just physically but emotionally and spiritually.
With such things if people do not realise this of them (and boy there is a lot of them)
That Jesus loves them so much and wants to bring healing and release.
Now if we have trust and faith in this and as it happens then yes we can see the glory of our future.

The reason being is that we are being set free to be the person God has asked us to be.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
What is your salvation dependent on?
Do you believe Jesus can change you?
First....my eternal life(salvation) is dependent on the completed work of Jesus on the cross and His resurrection, because of His victory, salvation is assured and cannot be lost.

Second do not confuse sanctification with justification.

Sanctification is living out our justification.

It is quite simple really.

Sad you make it all so complicated.

I am done now, why, because I know your mind is made up and you refuse to see,

I know and I am absolutely convinced one cannot live a life of victory if they think being a follower is for salvation.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
YOU sought out this thread. This thread didn't seek YOU out. And then you bash the originator of a thread YOU sought out!

How is that not hypocrisy?
You are told to keep away.

You could have just as easily started your OWN thread on how hard you work to get and remain saved.
Hypocrisy:

If you accuse someone of hypocrisy, you mean that they pretend to have qualities, beliefs, or feelings that they do not really have.

source: https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/hypocrisy


This is a public forum and thread.
There is no hypocrisy involved in being here.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
This is not an answer to do you believe Jesus can make you like Him.
So I would suggest your answer is No.

And therefore you will get what you believe.
Is this not the eternal justice that the living God provides?
Seriously!!!

We will never be like Him, wow, I guess instead of falling at His feet you prefer to stand up right beside Him!!!

This such heresy, I can no longer respond to you.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Not as many who believe Jesus but cannot believe that God loves us as much as he loves Jesus.

Not as many who do not believe that Jesus loves them as much as he loves God.

Then what we find is that such people try to earn that love.

How do they earn they love?

Jesus met with the dregs of society.
Accepted them as they are.
They knew he loved them and wanted to save them.

We must do the same as Jesus.

There is no point just telling broken hurt people to not do this and do that.
They have probably spent most of their life doing it, so a burden is just added.

People's lives are not transformed by telling them work harder or do good works.

Lives are transformed by love and acceptance.
When they see and experience that, the love God has for them, then we will transformation and trust.
I don't believe we can transform anyone.

We could lead them to Jesus and then HE'LL transform them....
If there's no transformation...there's no salvation.

Romans 12:2
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.


2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.