Not By Works

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UnderGrace

Guest
I did not say God gave them faith, I said it was his work.

You can not and will not come to faith in the mystery of God. The things of God are foolishness to yoru nature. God must do the work of giving you the tools so that you can make that decision.

Thats is why it is his work, not yours.
Jesus was actually telling them it is not a work but faith (belief)

And the disciples being accustomed to the works of the law as a way of pleasing God where being told there is no work it is faith.

Jesus is so excellent here, turning around what they perceive as a work they must do to the exact opposite.....faith ....not a work.:)

Faith is the opposite of work ....it is being persuaded

Example:
Faith is believing that a chair can hold you up no matter if you sit in it or not. Faith remains certain that the chair can hold you up before you sit in it, and even if you NEVER sit in it.

If you are convinced then you believe as a passive result.

We know that scripture states that the Spirit of God pursues each and every person at some point we either believe or suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

There is revelation from God all around people, people can believe based on those revelations.

I do not believe scripture teaches per-eminient grace.
 
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UnderGrace

Guest
You seem to be deliberately misconstruing the relation of faith and works. There are good and bad works. Faith generates good works. Non Christians can generate bad works. Like Jesus said by their fruits (works) you shall know them. Their works define what they are.
You said "no works no faith"
We have different views on most everything so....I am movin on.:)
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
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Well that is sanctification.

I am talking about your original faith, Which saved you..(if your saved)
You still don't get it, I had no faith before I started to study and listen and went against my nature I didn't start to study because I like to read but that was the only way to find out what the Bible really said. I had to decide if the Bible was trust worthy and decide to accept that the Lord died for me before I asked him into my heart. The work was done. Lord became real to me when I asked him into my heart.
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
Fear of what? I didn't believe in hell till after I believed in Jesus. And you even said you started seeking didn't that require effort, determination and focus?
fear of hell came before any determination

it caused determination

seeking was a response to the fear that was a response to belief

the countless hours of prayer
study
and trying to conform to Gods will all a product of the belief that was in me .... which i didnt want in the first place... i was loving my old life until i saw where it was headed
 
Mar 14, 2011
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You still don't get it, I had no faith before I started to study and listen and went against my nature I didn't start to study because I like to read but that was the only way to find out what the Bible really said. I had to decide if the Bible was trust worthy and decide to accept that the Lord died for me before I asked him into my heart. The work was done. Lord became real to me when I asked him into my heart.
I did listen

What I see is God did a great work to bring you to faith..
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Jesus was actually telling them it is not a work but faith (belief)

And the disciples being accustomed to the works of the law as a way of pleasing God where being told there is no work it is faith.

Jesus is so excellent here, turning around what they perceive as a work they must do to the exact opposite.....faith ....not a work.:)

Faith is the opposite of work ....it is being persuaded

Example:
Faith is believing that a chair can hold you up no matter if you sit in it or not. Faith remains certain that the chair can hold you up before you sit in it, and even if you NEVER sit in it.

If you are convinced then you believe as a passive result.

We know that scripture states that the Spirit of God pursues each and every person at some point we either believe or suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

There is revelation from God all around people, people can believe based on those revelations.

I do not believe scripture teaches per-eminient grace.
If you study john 6, You will see it is Gods work which brings us to faith. Those who did nto believe would not believe no matter what work God did. It does nto mean God stops tryign to call them and to draw them,

I did not come to faith because I had some unique power to understand and bring myself to God. I had faith because God drew me, and did what was needed to break my pride so I could hmble myself enough to see he was trustworthy, and help me understand his word.


What jesus said is true, It is the WORK OF GOD that WE BELIEVE (have faith) It is not our work.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
7,164
4,828
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lawton ok
Co-operate?

Jesus called it being bancrupt

The tax collector Got on his knees unable even to look up to heaven,

Thats not cooperation. That is a desperate plea of brokenness calling out for mercy, because they are dead and they know it..
Yes he did. He believed in God to begin with. I was an agnostic for years. I had to come to believe ask for forgiveness and admit that God was smarter than me. Because I was spiritually bankrupt!
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
398
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I know my own heart.
I'm in no place to judge someone else's.
Jesus said by their fruits you shall know them. That is how we should judge them. When we see a minister never preach the gospel message what are they? This is a problem that all of the main protestant denominations have. Only the sub denominations still preach the gospel message. Go to a Presbyterian USA church and see if you hear the gospel message. That is the works of them. At a Presbyterian PCA church you will hear it.
 
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UnderGrace

Guest
If you study john 6, You will see it is Gods work which brings us to faith. Those who did nto believe would not believe no matter what work God did. It does nto mean God stops tryign to call them and to draw them,

I did not come to faith because I had some unique power to understand and bring myself to God. I had faith because God drew me, and did what was needed to break my pride so I could hmble myself enough to see he was trustworthy, and help me understand his word.


What jesus said is true, It is the WORK OF GOD that WE BELIEVE (have faith) It is not our work.
I respectfully disagree that this is what Jesus is stating here.

As you know I give no inroads to TULIP, God pursue all, some suppress the truth in unrighteousness, others believe because they are persuaded.

The logical conclusion of what you have written is that God's work is sometimes successful, sometimes He is not, since not all come to faith.:unsure:

Otherwise one must go full Calvinist mode and believe that God does it all and He gives the faith to believe.
 
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UnderGrace

Guest
No, grace is the instrument, Apart from Grace. No amout of belief could ever save you. You would be dead in your sin.
Wow EG......grace is love, it His love towards us .....that is why it is by Grace (because He loved us enough to pay the price) we did not deserve this act but He did it anyway.

Faith is the instrument, it is us being persuaded of this truth and trusting this truth and the promises that come with it apart from works.
 
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UnderGrace

Guest
fear of hell came before any determination

it caused determination

seeking was a response to the fear that was a response to belief

the countless hours of prayer
study
and trying to conform to Gods will all a product of the belief that was in me .... which i didnt want in the first place... i was loving my old life until i saw where it was headed
I was hating my old life and some fear of hell.......however I can really relate to the seeking part.:)
 
Mar 14, 2011
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I respectfully disagree that this is what Jesus is stating here.

As you know I give no inroads to TULIP,
Niether do I. That is not where I got my information. Nor is it what i am trying to prove,

I just stated what jesus said, Either you believe what he said or you do not. TULIP has no bearing on what jesus said.

I get so sick of these calvin vs arminian blinders people have. That they think every doctrine or every thought people have is based on one of these two theologies. I have nev er witnessed such things in my life until I came here, And it is dangerous, and why people will never understand what others say, Because they try to filter what everyone says through these two ideas.


God pursue all, some suppress the truth in unrighteousness, others believe because they are persuaded.
They are pursuaded because of the work of God. Others, God works in them also. But they chose to walk away and never believe ie, supress the truth.

If God did not work in you You would never believe, Nor would I ever believe.


Its not a tulip or calvin issue, It is a God issue.

The logical conclusion of what you have written is that God's work is sometimes successful, sometimes He is not, since not all come to faith.:unsure:
No. the logical conclusion is that God will not force people against their will to believe something they do not wish to believe, No matter how Hard God works. (Its not a calvin issue)



Otherwise one must go full Calvinist mode and believe that God does it all and He gives the faith to believe.
Wrong, Stop trying to force everything into a calvin debate.. or looking through calvin blinders in an attempt to prove calvin wrong.

“it is the work of God that we believe”

Those are jesus words. Not calvins.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Wow EG......grace is love, it His love towards us .....that is why it is by Grace (because He loved us enough to pay the price) we did not deserve this act but He did it anyway.

Faith is the instrument, it is us being persuaded of this truth and trusting this truth and the promises that come with it apart from works.
No.

It is BY GRACE we have been saved. (The instrument)

Faith just RECIEVES what grace offers..or it rejects what grace offers.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Wow EG......grace is love, it His love towards us .....that is why it is by Grace (because He loved us enough to pay the price) we did not deserve this act but He did it anyway.

Faith is the instrument, it is us being persuaded of this truth and trusting this truth and the promises that come with it apart from works.
Let me ask you this

1. Did you spend a few thousand years putting the bible together? (Wirting the words which gave you life)
2. Did you die on the cross for your sins?
3. Did you train up people who trained other people. To be able to give the word to those who eventually helped the people who gave you the word. Which ended up saving you
4. Did you open your understadning, so these things, which God says are foolish to those who are not yet his, could be understood by you?
5 Did you justify yourself? Sanctify yourself make yourself alive, Redeem yourself and all the things to which you base your HOPE of eternal life, which God, who can not lie, promised you?


If your answer is no to all these questions. Then you just proved, it is god works which brought you to faith. By doing all of these things, and many many other things we may not even know about until we meet him face to face, which brought you to the point where like the tax collector. You called out for mercy.
 
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UnderGrace

Guest
Believe as you will.

Jesus was not saying that God was doing the work (prevenient grace) God does not give grace before we are regenerated.

He is pointing them to belief, and belief is not a work and God does not provide belief.

Movin on again:)


Niether do I. That is not where I got my information. Nor is it what i am trying to prove,

I just stated what jesus said, Either you believe what he said or you do not. TULIP has no bearing on what jesus said.

I get so sick of these calvin vs arminian blinders people have. That they think every doctrine or every thought people have is based on one of these two theologies. I have nev er witnessed such things in my life until I came here, And it is dangerous, and why people will never understand what others say, Because they try to filter what everyone says through these two ideas.



They are pursuaded because of the work of God. Others, God works in them also. But they chose to walk away and never believe ie, supress the truth.

If God did not work in you You would never believe, Nor would I ever believe.


Its not a tulip or calvin issue, It is a God issue.


No. the logical conclusion is that God will not force people against their will to believe something they do not wish to believe, No matter how Hard God works. (Its not a calvin issue)




Wrong, Stop trying to force everything into a calvin debate.. or looking through calvin blinders in an attempt to prove calvin wrong.

“it is the work of God that we believe”

Those are jesus words. Not calvins.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Let me ask you this

1. Did you spend a few thousand years putting the bible together? (Wirting the words which gave you life)
2. Did you die on the cross for your sins?
3. Did you train up people who trained other people. To be able to give the word to those who eventually helped the people who gave you the word. Which ended up saving you
4. Did you open your understadning, so these things, which God says are foolish to those who are not yet his, could be understood by you?
5 Did you justify yourself? Sanctify yourself make yourself alive, Redeem yourself and all the things to which you base your HOPE of eternal life, which God, who can not lie, promised you?


If your answer is no to all these questions. Then you just proved, it is god works which brought you to faith. By doing all of these things, and many many other things we may not even know about until we meet him face to face, which brought you to the point where like the tax collector. You called out for mercy.
These are not personal to me God did this for everyone.

Having said that this is not the work Jesus was referring to, he was contrasting work under the law to faith.

okay really movin on now :)
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
You still don't get it, I had no faith before I started to study and listen and went against my nature I didn't start to study because I like to read but that was the only way to find out what the Bible really said. I had to decide if the Bible was trust worthy and decide to accept that the Lord died for me before I asked him into my heart. The work was done. Lord became real to me when I asked him into my heart.

i view you as my brother in Christ

and respect you as my elder

and i like you as a person.... i think youre interesting and funny


i see this as

1. you did not know the truth, then you looked for it in the Word

2. you hearing the truth which took a lot of work on your part to hear the fullness of it

3. when you heard you believed (even if there were errors and false understandings on your part at first.... i know i had plenty)


but brother


1.
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


2.
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


3.
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


i believe you were drawn to Christ through Gods works in you....

you believed the truth

and now are a new creature.....

any effort you put in... is a response to what God did as far as i can see

just like now
youre made new

that lovely new heart of yours comes from Him

any good you do is from God working in you....


As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Believe as you will.

Jesus was not saying that God was doing the work (prevenient grace) God does not give grace before we are regenerated.

He is pointing them to belief, and belief is not a work and God does not provide belief.

Movin on again:)
Your stuck on semantics. And I fear you do not have an understanding of grace.

The mere fact you were being able to be saved is by by the grace of God.


Even Cain was shown grace before he murdered his brother, After he murdered his brother, and even in his punishment.

I suggest your stop trying to force everything into a calvinist viewpoint, and start actually looking at the word of God.

Once again.

It is the work of God you believe

Those are jesus words not mine, Your argument is against him.