Not By Works

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Mar 14, 2011
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Lordship salvation.

I can not buy into this thought

How can a person who is dead in sin, Who can not understand the mysteries of God, because they are dead, And only has revealed to him the gospel message. Come and make a person he or she does not even know yet their lord Thats impossible

We make God our lord as we get saved, Grow in him, and learn that he is truly the lord and master because everything he tells us to do is for our benefit and not his.

You can not understand this before you are saved, It is a learning process.

When you get saved, You like the tax collector. Place yourself at the mercy of God, knowing you are without hope. Because you have failed to love up to Gods standard. And you entrust your eternity to him,

From that part on, God begins to reveal his plan and purpose and who he really is in your life. And the more mature you get, the more you make him master of your life.


I went though years of lordship salvation in the baptist church, and to me it is just another form of legalism, which holds the true believer in check, and stunts his growth, because instead of learning who God is, he again is placed in a performance based relationship with God (although with the understanding you can nto lose salvation) which is not what my bible teaches. And I am strictly apposed to this form of legalism, which I was bound under for many years, and ended up leading me into 5 years of misery as a prodigal son, because I could not maintain the performance level that was so pushed down my throat for years. So why even bother.

 
Dec 27, 2018
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Lordship salvation.

I can not buy into this thought

How can a person who is dead in sin, Who can not understand the mysteries of God, because they are dead, And only has revealed to him the gospel message. Come and make a person he or she does not even know yet their lord Thats impossible
It's called heart change. It happens when the Spirit enters us.

We make God our lord as we get saved, Grow in him, and learn that he is truly the lord and master because everything he tells us to do is for our benefit and not his.
Jesus is your Lord the moment you believe. You are bought with a price and are no longer your own. You may not know it at first, but that does not change the reality.

...and in actuality, Jesus is Lord of all, even those who reject Him. That is why every knee will bow and every tongue will confess to it on that day.

You can not understand this before you are saved, It is a learning process.

When you get saved, You like the tax collector. Place yourself at the mercy of God, knowing you are without hope. Because you have failed to love up to Gods standard. And you entrust your eternity to him,

From that part on, God begins to reveal his plan and purpose and who he really is in your life. And the more mature you get, the more you make him master of your life.

I went though years of lordship salvation in the baptist church, and to me it is just another form of legalism, which holds the true believer in check, and stunts his growth, because instead of learning who God is, he again is placed in a performance based relationship with God (although with the understanding you can nto lose salvation) which is not what my bible teaches. And I am strictly apposed to this form of legalism, which I was bound under for many years, and ended up leading me into 5 years of misery as a prodigal son, because I could not maintain the performance level that was so pushed down my throat for years. So why even bother.
There is only one Jesus in the Bible, and He is LORD of all, whether we know it or not. The only reason people don't know it is because they are not adequetely taught.
 
Dec 27, 2018
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I believe we are talking about works proving salvation or "habitual sin" means a person is not saved.
By this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments...1 John 2:6

It's not about proof. It's about REALITY.
 
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
875
113
Lordship salvation.

I can not buy into this thought

How can a person who is dead in sin, Who can not understand the mysteries of God, because they are dead, And only has revealed to him the gospel message. Come and make a person he or she does not even know yet their lord Thats impossible

We make God our lord as we get saved, Grow in him, and learn that he is truly the lord and master because everything he tells us to do is for our benefit and not his.

You can not understand this before you are saved, It is a learning process.

When you get saved, You like the tax collector. Place yourself at the mercy of God, knowing you are without hope. Because you have failed to love up to Gods standard. And you entrust your eternity to him,

From that part on, God begins to reveal his plan and purpose and who he really is in your life. And the more mature you get, the more you make him master of your life.

I went though years of lordship salvation in the baptist church, and to me it is just another form of legalism, which holds the true believer in check, and stunts his growth, because instead of learning who God is, he again is placed in a performance based relationship with God (although with the understanding you can nto lose salvation) which is not what my bible teaches. And I am strictly apposed to this form of legalism, which I was bound under for many years, and ended up leading me into 5 years of misery as a prodigal son, because I could not maintain the performance level that was so pushed down my throat for years. So why even bother.
If Jesus is your Saviour, He is also your Lord, whether you know it or not. 1 Corinthians 6:19. You are bought with a price and you are not your own. We are to glorify Him with our bodies and our spirits, WHICH ARE HIS. A Lord (kurios) is one that OWNS a doulos. You belong to Christ, if you are saved, therefore HE is your kurios whether you know it or acknowledge it or not.

That is really all that needs to be said on the matter
 
Dec 27, 2018
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I am looking for a straight answer ....you are the one that teaches perseverance...if a person does not perservere what does that mean?
BUMP

What does the following verse say? It answers your question CLEARLY.

Hebrews 3:6- But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

BTW, this verse is descriptive...
 
Dec 27, 2018
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Denying the Lordship of Christ is the same as saying one can be saved and still be there own kurios (Lord). If you are your own kurios, then you are failing to realize that you are bought with a price and you are no longer your own, but you belong to Christ, who is your kurios.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Just for the sake of clarification

I have heard the saying “if Jesus is your savior he is your Lord”

While I agree, It does not mean the baby child of God has MADE him his lord. The baby has to grow up and learn about who this “lord” who has adopted him into his family is..

The wonderful think about God. Is he always is right, He always has our best interest at heart. He always wants us to do things which are good for us.

And the more steps of faith we take, the more we see and realize how true these things are. And the more we love, honor and cherish this father who loved us so much he gave his son,
 

OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
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By this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments...1 John 2:6

It's not about proof. It's about REALITY.
What is not about proof?

5083. téreó
Strong's Concordance​
téreó: to watch over, to guard

Original Word: τηρέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: téreó
Phonetic Spelling: (tay-reh'-o)
Definition: to watch over, to guard
Usage: I keep, guard, observe, watch over.
HELPS Word-studies
5083 tēréō (from tēros, "a guard") – properly, maintain (preserve); (figuratively) spiritually guard (watch), keep intact.​


The "reality" is all who are born again do keep His commandments.

Perfectly upholding all of them at every point is not what keeping them means in this verse.

Nor is it what keeps salvation, or makes it a "reality".

Denying the Lordship of Christ is the same as saying one can be saved and still be their own kurios (Lord). If you are your own kurios, then you are failing to realize that you are bought with a price and you are no longer your own, but you belong to Christ, who is your kurios.

A person can believe without knowing that Jesus is their kurios, but that would be the result of very poor preaching.

Lordship salvation is a term given to a doctrine which teaches, conditions outside of "by grace through faith" must be met for salvation.
 
Dec 27, 2018
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What is not about proof?

5083. téreó
Strong's Concordance​
téreó: to watch over, to guard

Original Word: τηρέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: téreó
Phonetic Spelling: (tay-reh'-o)
Definition: to watch over, to guard
Usage: I keep, guard, observe, watch over.
HELPS Word-studies
5083 tēréō (from tēros, "a guard") – properly, maintain (preserve); (figuratively) spiritually guard (watch), keep intact.​


The "reality" is all who are born again do keep His commandments.

Perfectly upholding all of them at every point is not what keeping them means in this verse.

Nor is it what keeps salvation, or makes it a "reality".




Lordship salvation is a term given to a doctrine which teaches, conditions outside of "by grace through faith" must be met for salvation.
Here you go, Undergrace. Right out of OneofHis, mouth.

The "reality" is all who are born again do keep His commandments.

Lordship salvation is a term given to a doctrine which teaches, conditions outside of "by grace through faith" must be met for salvation.
Faith in who? A saviour who is not Lord? No such saviour exists. The Saviour is Jesus OUR Lord.

Believing in a saviour who is not Lord is believing in a subbiblical Jesus that does not exist. Jesus is LORD whether you acknowledge it or not.
 

OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
1,358
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Here you go, Undergrace. Right out of OneofHis, mouth.

The "reality" is all who are born again do keep His commandments.



Faith in who? A saviour who is not Lord? No such saviour exists. The Saviour is Jesus OUR Lord.
Of course a believer in Christ doesn't abandon and forsake His commandments....

Does that mean all who know Him uphold them perfectly? No.

We understand and value them and keep them.

What do you mean faith in who?
Of course Jesus is the only way.

The only door to heaven.


Not our walk, not our works, not the number of fruit He produces in us.


Some trees will have less than others, but they are equally saved by our Lord and savior Jesus.
 

OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
1,358
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Good job of putting the cart before the horse, UnderGrace. WORKS follow salvation, just as I said at least 100 times. I can see why it takes 102,000 posts to establish anything. Some of you guys either don't read or you have really bad memories
If it has not been established in almost 102,000 posts of saying the same thing, I don't know if it ever will be. The point is that DC is using a red herring ploy by pretending that anyone who disagrees with him on anything at all are is denying salvation by grace through faith alone.

You make a lot of silly and false accusations.

I have disagreed with brother dave on many occasions, we take it to the inspired written Word of God and discuss it as brothers.

Also,

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.


But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works.
 
Mar 14, 2011
73,945
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What is not about proof?

5083. téreó
Strong's Concordance​
téreó: to watch over, to guard

Original Word: τηρέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: téreó
Phonetic Spelling: (tay-reh'-o)
Definition: to watch over, to guard
Usage: I keep, guard, observe, watch over.
HELPS Word-studies
5083 tēréō (from tēros, "a guard") – properly, maintain (preserve); (figuratively) spiritually guard (watch), keep intact.​


The "reality" is all who are born again do keep His commandments.

Perfectly upholding all of them at every point is not what keeping them means in this verse.

Nor is it what keeps salvation, or makes it a "reality".




Lordship salvation is a term given to a doctrine which teaches, conditions outside of "by grace through faith" must be met for salvation.
Amen

Those who keep his commands” is a descriptive term, not a prescriptive term.
 
Mar 14, 2011
73,945
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You make a lot of silly and false accusations.

I have disagreed with brother dave on many occasions, we take it to the inspired written Word of God and discuss it as brothers.

Also,

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.


But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works.
Had to look at who you were talking to. And Amen he does make alot of silly and false accusations.

Thats why he is in my prayer bin, Got sick of trying to have a discussion with a know it all. Who has to accuse and attack people who do not agree with him.
 
Dec 27, 2018
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Of course a believer in Christ doesn't abandon and forsake His commandments....

Does that mean all who know Him uphold them perfectly? No.

We understand and value them and keep them.

What do you mean faith in who?
Of course Jesus is the only way.

The only door to heaven.


Not our walk, not our works, not the number of fruit He produces in us.


Some trees will have less than others, but they are equally saved by our Lord and savior Jesus.
No one said "perfectly".

If a person does not hold Jesus to be kurios, who exactly is their kurios? Probably, they are their own kurios.
 
Dec 27, 2018
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Had to look at who you were talking to. And Amen he does make alot of silly and false accusations.

Thats why he is in my prayer bin, Got sick of trying to have a discussion with a know it all. Who has to accuse and attack people who do not agree with him.
When you repeatedly go back to what a person has already said as if they didn't say it, that is a red herring.
 
Dec 27, 2018
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The price was paid at the cross by Jesus

To state we owe God our lives for salvation is not right...it is a free gift of grace.

It is all of God....we cannot pay Him back
This is the post where UnderGrace STARTED the red herring. Read what she is responding to, and how she responded. It does not address my post at all, and it repeats what I already stated. Then DC continued the red herring. It is a common ploy around here.

So no false accusation was made by me, only by you.
 
Dec 27, 2018
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[QUOTE]Macabeus- you cannot be saved without Christ being your Lord, because, being redeemed, you are bought with a price, you are no longer your own, but belong to another, even Christ If you belong to another, that one who you belong to is your Lord. Paul is using slavery (doulos) language here.

You are bought with a price, and you belong to Christ, and He owns you, you are not your own. Therefore, it clearly follows that Christ is your Lord if you are saved, whether you know it or not.

IN FACT, Christ is Lord of ALL, even though people do not realize it or accept it.
[/QUOTE]

The price was paid at the cross by Jesus

To state we owe God our lives for salvation is not right...it is a free gift of grace.

It is all of God....we cannot pay Him back
Notice that her post in no way addressed what I said, but argued for something that I was not arguing against at all. That is a classic example of a red herring. And DC continued the red herring in his reply to her. Red herrings are common ploys around here. Don't answer what a person is saying, but answer a challenge that is not even being made. Red herrings.
 

OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
1,358
2,138
113
No one said "perfectly".

If a person does not hold Jesus to be kurios, who exactly is their kurios? Probably, they are their own kurios.
Notice that her post in no way addressed what I said, but argued for something that I was not arguing against at all. That is a classic example of a red herring.
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