Not By Works

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Dec 12, 2013
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The seed is incorruptible but you are not.

NIV1984 1 Corinthians 15:49-58
And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven. I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
Seohce...you obviously do not understand being born AGAIN from ABOVE by INCORRUPTIBLE SEED....your false Catholic dogma blinds you to the truth......
 

VCO

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Mr. VCO I can regular font just fine btw and I am try to be diligent and read what I respond to although sometimes I rush and do mess up......but I really want to tell that this is not the Gospel

IT means You are not SAVED until you received HIM AS LORD, meaning MASTER, of your LIFE.



The Gospel is laying down our own works of righteousness that can never save and believing in Christ Jesus who made the payment for our sins on the cross for us and accepting His free gift of salvation....In Ephesians there is no addendum about making Him Lord, He is Lord.

Making him master of your life is not salvation....that almost sounds Catholic actually

That is Just my STYLE, and I DO NOT CARE what Face Book calls it, it is OLD SCHOOL. I have Never had a face book account, and never will. I object to Face Book, say it is Shouting and I Old School it was Only Emphasis. You should have seen my Bible when Highlighting Markers first Came out. I had at least 5 colors of Highlight Markers in my pocket at one time. So I will STAY Old School until I die.

Then you do not know Catholic even. THAT IS EVANGELICAL. IT IS THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO JESUS.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
"we are sinless in Christ" - this statement is the same as many are declaring.

I think this would have been better stated as "Christ in us is sinless" very important concept, without a clear understanding of this it is very hard to rightly divide scripture.

To be born again is to have a new nature ....Jesus tells this to Nicodemus, and you know what ... a person cannot be unborn and the relationship is by birth not by works or following in his steps.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
That is Just my STYLE, and I DO NOT CARE what Face Book calls it, it is OLD SCHOOL. I have Never had a face book account, and never will. I object to Face Book, say it is Shouting and I Old School it was Only Emphasis. You should have seen my Bible when Highlighting Markers first Came out. I had at least 5 colors of Markers in my pocket at one time. So I will STAY Old School until I die.
This is pretty funny.... and I get it that is is your style but it does come across slightly strong... but that is okay I have my big boy pants on :) never come to CC without them!!
 

theanointedwinner

Well-known member
Nov 6, 2018
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New question, is sanctification by works? Yes or no

Strongest evidence from both sides?

And what's the foundation of Christian sanctification?
 

corazondeldei

Active member
Apr 17, 2019
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Seohce...you obviously do not understand being born AGAIN from ABOVE by INCORRUPTIBLE SEED....your false Catholic dogma blinds you to the truth......
As usual, REBUTTING in his own unique special style aka ad hominem.



NIV1984 2 John 1:7-11
Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.

NIV1984 2 John 1:5-6
And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

The command from the beginning is the same teaching that Christ, the apostles, disciples and the prophets taught.

You can judge for yourself.

NIV1984 John 14:20-24
On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?” Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

"No deceiver would truly teach obedience to God and no true Christian would ever teach DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD."
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Mr. VCO I can regular font just fine btw and I am try to be diligent and read what I respond to although sometimes I rush and do mess up......but I really want to tell that this is not the Gospel

IT means You are not SAVED until you received HIM AS LORD, meaning MASTER, of your LIFE.



The Gospel is laying down our own works of righteousness that can never save and believing in Christ Jesus who made the payment for our sins on the cross for us and accepting His free gift of salvation....In Ephesians there is no addendum about making Him Lord, He is Lord.

Making him master of your life is not salvation....that almost sounds Catholic actually

THAT IS THE ONLY SALVATION I KNOW, and it is FAR from Catholic.

Apparently You do not even know the Meaning of the WORD LORD, IT LITERALLY MEANS MASTER.


YOU DID NOT ANSWER MY QUESTION!

Show me Everything that YOU, think I interpreted WRONG. ALSO what Church do you attend, I would like to look at there Doctrinal Statement of FAITH. I, for a Long Time thought you were Evangelical, but obviously you are NOT. Evangelicals are the core of Christian Churches. Baptists Churches, Evangelical Free Churches, Bible Churches, Community Non-Denominational Churches, Grace Brethren Churches, Evangelical Lutheran Churches, Evangelical Mennonite Churches, Evangelical Wesleyan Churches, Church of the Nazarene, Congregational Churches, ETC., are among the Denominations that are of the EVANGELICAL TYPE. Most of those are Conservative Evangelicals, which means they do not believe in Ordaining women, and do not believe tongues are for today.

It is 100% Correct in My Opinion, and RECEIVING HIM AS LORD meaning MASTER, is Literally IS THE WAY EVERYONE IS SAVED, that TRULY ARE BORN AGAIN.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
THAT IS THE ONLY SALVATION I KNOW, and it is FAR from Catholic.

Apparently You do not even know the Meaning of the WORD LORD, IT LITERALLY MEANS MASTER.


YOU DID NOT ANSWER MY QUESTION!

Show me Everything that YOU, think I interpreted WRONG. ALSO what Church do you attend, I would like to look at there Doctrinal Statement of FAITH. I, for a Long Time thought you were Evangelical, but obviously you are NOT. Evangelicals are the core of Christian Churches. Baptists Churches, Evangelical Free Churches, Bible Churches, Community Non-Denominational Churches, Grace Brethren Churches, Evangelical Lutheran Churches, Evangelical Mennonite Churches, Evangelical Wesleyan Churches, Church of the Nazarene, Congregational Churches, ETC., are among the Denominations that are of the EVANGELICAL TYPE. Most of those are Conservative Evangelicals, which means they do not believe in Ordaining women, and do not believe tongues are for today.

It is 100% Correct in My Opinion, and RECEIVING HIM AS LORD meaning MASTER, is Literally IS THE WAY EVERYONE IS SAVED, that TRULY ARE BORN AGAIN.

Mr. VCO... can you find for me one clear scripture that states we are born again by making Jesus Lord/Master of our lives.

The entire Gospel of John is about "believe"

Jesus gives eternal life to those who believe in Him for it, He is the object of our faith for salvation because our dead works cannot save us. If it was about making Him Lord of our life....why then did He die on the cross and rise from the dead?

Jesus is a personal saviour...Messiah
 
Dec 27, 2018
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I have read this three times.....Amen and Amen....so uplifting!!!

We need another life, that is what happens when we are born again....exactly what Jesus told Nicodemus.

This is what Paul teaches over and over again

We are to reckon ourselves dead to sin - not through our own power, not through our own 'good' living, but by the merit of the Lord Jesus. Remember - all of our 'goodness' is as filthy rags. He accepts only the spotless righteousness of the Lord Jesus! So do not attempt to cultivate the 'good' qualities you have. Yield all to Jesus. Feed the spirit-man on the things of the Spirit and you will become a full grown spiritual person and receive a full reward (II John 8). Expect nothing of the flesh and depend entirely on Jesus.
Still does not change the fact that two natures are not mentioned in 1 John 3 :)
 
Dec 27, 2018
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Mr. VCO... can you find for me one clear scripture that states we are born again by making Jesus Lord/Master of our lives.

The entire Gospel of John is about "believe"

Jesus gives eternal life to those who believe in Him for it, He is the object of our faith for salvation because our dead works cannot save us. If it was about making Him Lord of our life....why then did He die on the cross and rise from the dead?

Jesus is a personal saviour...Messiah
What are we to believe in? A Saviour that is not LORD? No such Saviour exists. There is one saviour, and He is the LORD JESUS CHRIST.

The Saviour is LORD of all. Jesus.
 
Dec 27, 2018
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I have read this three times.....Amen and Amen....so uplifting!!!

We need another life, that is what happens when we are born again....exactly what Jesus told Nicodemus.

This is what Paul teaches over and over again

We are to reckon ourselves dead to sin - not through our own power, not through our own 'good' living, but by the merit of the Lord Jesus. Remember - all of our 'goodness' is as filthy rags. He accepts only the spotless righteousness of the Lord Jesus! So do not attempt to cultivate the 'good' qualities you have. Yield all to Jesus. Feed the spirit-man on the things of the Spirit and you will become a full grown spiritual person and receive a full reward (II John 8). Expect nothing of the flesh and depend entirely on Jesus.
Correction. The text of 1 John 3:6-7 does not mention two natures of a Christian, one practicing sin and one practicing righteousness. That is proto-gnostic antinomianism. The text of 1 John 3:6-7 is talking about two types of people...those who are born of God and those who are not, just like eternally grateful said.
 
Dec 27, 2018
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These are not my words...but I cannot source them ....anyway I absolutely agree with it!!!

Set yourself free in Christ:)
Still does not change the fact that you have put "two natures of the believer" in 1 John 3:6-7, when in actuality it is talking about the natures of TWO different kinds of people, saved people and unsaved people. You twist the scriptures and add things in order to make the scriptures say what you want them to say.
 
Dec 27, 2018
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I had to look to see who you were responding to....thank the CC "gods" for ignore..............no pun intended and for sure sarcasm found in the word "gods"
IF you knew greek, like you claim you do, you would know about aktionsart and the linear nature of the present tense, and would apply it to the present tense verbs poieo and hamartano in 1 John 3:6-7, but you show complete ignorance of the way the greek tenses work in interpreting the verbs the way you do, and applying 1 John 3:6 to the flesh and 3:7 to the new nature.
 
Dec 27, 2018
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Right so give me the metric for this "practice sin" like I said is lying every day count?
If DC knew Greek like he claims, he would explain to you the (often) linear nature of the present tense in Koine Greek, and that the present tense aspect of the verb "sin" and "practice" in 1 John 3:6-7 is linear in nature, and can be represented by a continuous line, representing continual practice of sin) or a broken line (representing durative, habitual, repetition of sin) whereas the word "sin" in 1 John 2:1 is an aorist verb, which can be represented by a point in time.

Present tense verbs "sin" and "practice" in 1 John 3:6-7 are linear verbs. Linear verbs are continuous or ititerative.

Continuous present _________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ititerative present (repetitive and habitual)----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The verbs "practice" and "sin" in 1 John :6-7 are linear verbs, either continuous or ititerative.

The verb "sin" in 1 John 2:1 is aorist. A point in time. Can be represented by a period or a circle. An action viewed as occurring in a point of time, punctilar.

So 1 John 3:6

sin ___________________________ continuosly.

or

sin ------------------------------- repeatedly

1 John 3:7- righteousness _________________________________ continuosly.

1 John 2:1- Righteousness _____________________.__________________________ continuing in righteousness, albeit capacity to sin.

The dot in the middle of righteousness above is a sin. Notice that the linear aspect is righteousness, then a sin, then back on track to righteousness again.

A believer may sin, but they do not stay on the sin track. They get back on the righteosness track via confession and the intercessory work of Christ. A non believer stays continously on the sin track.

So simple, a child can understand.
 
Dec 27, 2018
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....I thank the computer programming gods as well.... Ignore is very helpful indeed..if it were not available I would not stick around that is for sure.
A little help for DC and undergrace...

Tense plays a very crucial role in the study of New Testament exegesis. Dana and Mantey understood its significance in saying that "no element of the Greek language is of more importance to the student of the New Testament than the matter of tense". [1] Tense deals both with time and kind of action. Ancient Greek focused more on the latter of these aspects (that is, kind of action); however, time does play a role in verb tense when the mood is indicative (the four moods are explained below).

The aspect of a verb correlates with the kind of action. It determines whether the verb's action is punctiliar, linear or perfected. These are described in the following table.

Punctiliar:
action that relates to a specific pointin time

Linear:
action that is in the progress of occuring


Perfected:
action that is both punctiliar and linear in that it refers to action relating to a point in time, yet has results that are in the progress of occuring


The Present Tense
The present tense can either be continuous/ongoing or undefined. The continuous present is usually translated as "I am loosing" while the undefined is best translated as "I loosen." When the present is used with the indicative mood it denotes present time.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/help/greekverbs.cfm
Practice (righteosness) and sin in 1 John 3:6-7 are linear aspect verbs.

Sin in 1 John 2:1 is a puntiliar aspect verb.

If DC knows greek like he says he does, he should be able to connect the dots on this.
 
Dec 27, 2018
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Right so give me the metric for this "practice sin" like I said is lying every day count?
You think those who follow the TRUTH should be lying every day?

I already gave you a metric, post 101,283,

Billy received Jesus as Saviour 2 years ago. He trusts Jesus fully for his salvation, and rests in the fact that His sins are forgiven. Billy loves Jesus, and wants to serve Him out of nothing but love and gratitude. Billy is not sinless, but he is quick to confess His sins to God and wants to grow in obedience, not out of duty, but out of love and a desire to bear fruit for God. He doesn't want to sin because he loves God and he doesnt want people to stumble because of him, but he realizes he is far from perfect. But he is growing...

Billy is practicing righteousness by walking in the Light.

...which is far truer to the text of 1 John 3 then your "even though we sin continuously and habitually , our spirit is unaffected because our new nature cannot sin" dualistic antinomianism.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Mr. VCO... can you find for me one clear scripture that states we are born again by making Jesus Lord/Master of our lives.

The entire Gospel of John is about "believe"

Jesus gives eternal life to those who believe in Him for it, He is the object of our faith for salvation because our dead works cannot save us. If it was about making Him Lord of our life....why then did He die on the cross and rise from the dead?

Jesus is a personal saviour...Messiah

The Word LORD, means MASTER, you did not know that ? ? ?

Let's start with your LAST STATEMENT, Look at Rom. 10:9-10 below at the bottom. Do you understand that Confessing Jesus as LORD, means it Must have taken place in your Heart [Human Spirit] FIRST? It is NOT A CONFESSION unless it is absolutely true about IN YOUR HEART [Human Spirit], before you confess it. Otherwise it is ONLY A PROFESSION, and a Profession will not save you.

If you say to an Officer, I robbed a Bank in New York City; but you have Never been to N.Y. in your Life. Is that a CONFESSION, or only a PROFESSION? You know every inmate I ever asked that of, GOT IT TOTALLY RIGHT. Now look at that verse closely. You tell me WHAT Comes First, Receiving Him as LORD, or Receiving Him as Savior ? All the inmate got that question right too. IT IS RECEIVING HIM AS LORD, then and only then, HE BECOMES YOUR SAVIOR!

Do you KNOW what actually takes PLACE during the Born Again experience? No it is not talking in tongues.

He comes into your HEART; Births your (dead in your trespasses) Human Spirit, as your faith results in RECEIVING HIM AS LORD, meaning MASTER, and Eternal Life* begins; Once ETERNALLY ALIVE, HE Pours GOD's LOVE INTO THAT LIVING HEART, Rom 5:5; YOU WILL CONFESS ALL YOUR SINS at the prompting of the Holy Spirit {With me that happened FIRST, and I cried and wept over my sins for HOURS, begging HIM to forgive me, but it was purely the Holy Spirit that convicted me beyond what I had ever felt before.}; He will begin to teach you all things; He WILL cause GOD's LOVE to Come out of you in the form of OBEDIENCE to HIM, a deep LOVE for HIM, and LOVE FOR THE BRETHREN; AND helps you interpret Scriptures.

You see the RED STAR behind the word Life above, that is the VERY MOMENT you were SAVED and EVERYTHING in that Paragraph after that Star is a WORK the HOLY SPIRIT did in your HEART. No, YOU DO NOT GET to take CREDIT FOR ANY OF IT, it all of the HOLY SPIRIT.

You implied that just Believe in Jesus and you are SAVED. Do you understand that to a JEW, True Belief requires one to put YOUR WHOLE TRUST on what YOU CLAIM TO BELIEVE. Believe in ENGLISH is WELL below that standard, in fact it is WEAK AT BEST.
Let me prove it to you.

If two Jews walk up to a frozen over Lake in early winter.
Jew #1 said to Jew #2, "Do you believe the ice is thick enough to walk on yet?"
Jew #2 then said, "Yes, I do believe it is thick enough to walk on."
And then Jew #2 stuck out only one foot to test the ice.
Jew #1 would start SCREAMING, "YOU ARE A LIAR! IF YOU REALLY BELIEVED IT WAS THICK ENOUGH TO WALK ON, YOU WOULD HAVE BOLDLY GONE OUT THERE AND PUT YOUR WHOLE WEIGHT ON WHAT YOU BELIEVE."


See it now? At the time Jesus used the WORD BELIEVE, HE knew every Jew would understand that way, HE just meant it, which would be the word BELIEVE, by the Jewish MEANING, and not the English meaning. If you have not TRUSTED with your WHOLE being, receiving HIM AS LORD and MASTER, you did not use the true MEANING of the word BELIEVE:

John 3:18 (NKJV)
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Let's consider the Belief of the DEMONS for a minute:

Mark 5:6-9 (NIV)
6 When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him.
7 He shouted at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won't torture me!"
8 For Jesus had said to him, "Come out of this man, you evil spirit!"
9 Then Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" "My name is Legion," he replied, "for we are many."

There were up to 6000 [in a ROMAN Legion] demons in those two men, and According to your THEORY, they exhibited minimum saving faith. NOT! Saving Faith is DEEP in your HEART, and it puts your WHOLE TRUST IN JESUS.

James 2:19 (NIV)
19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.


Now the TOP QUESTION:

I already Posted it too you, Here is the Link again: #101,344


This is pretty funny.... and I get it that is is your style but it does come across slightly strong... but that is okay I have my big boy pants on :) never come to CC without them!!
Okay lets put it this way, I am too old to learn new tricks. :confused:


Romans 10:9-10 (NASB)
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead,
you will be saved;
10 for with the heart [human spirit] a person believes [Born Again], resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Mr. VCO... can you find for me one clear scripture that states we are born again by making Jesus Lord/Master of our lives.

The entire Gospel of John is about "believe"

Jesus gives eternal life to those who believe in Him for it, He is the object of our faith for salvation because our dead works cannot save us. If it was about making Him Lord of our life....why then did He die on the cross and rise from the dead?

Jesus is a personal saviour...Messiah

Luke 13:25 (NJB)
25 ‘Once the master of the house has got up and locked the door, you may find yourself standing outside knocking on the door, saying, Lord, open to us,” but he will answer, “I do not know where you come from.” [NOT BORN AGAIN]

John 13:13 (NJB)
13 You call me Master and Lord, and rightly; so I am.


Romans 14:4 (NASB)

4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Jude 1:4 (HCSB)
4 For some men, who were designated for this judgment long ago, have come in by stealth; they are ungodly, turning the grace of our God into promiscuity and denying Jesus Christ, our only Master and Lord.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
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It is ALL Christ or it is fraudulent........any gospel that interjects self, works, earned merit, finished off or topped off by what we do, religious hoop jumping, self, assistance on our part etc....if as false as they come, not of God, of the devil and contrary to the truth!!
By the power of God we are saved , kept , sealed by the Holy Spirit...
All of Him and nothing from us , we walk as He walked by grace through faith , He leads , we follow , doing good works that He our God , our Father has placed before us before the foundation of the world...

1 Peter 1:5
And through your faith, God is protecting you by his power until you receive this salvation, which is ready to be revealed on the last day for all to see. ..xox...
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
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It is ALL Christ or it is fraudulent........any gospel that interjects self, works, earned merit, finished off or topped off by what we do, religious hoop jumping, self, assistance on our part etc....if as false as they come, not of God, of the devil and contrary to the truth!!
This is very true. It is all Jesus.

The point that causes many to ponder, is when they have Jesus in their heart, they turn round and sin.
They feel guilt, defeat, hypocrisy, failure, a denial of the very faith they hold to.

The Father provided a way of reconciliation, repentance, confession, sorrow, and working on working the
issues through.

So though we are frail and still growing in grace, God provides a way through for reconciliation and
intent. Jewels in earthen vessels is the description.

Now if you hold that our failures and struggles are just to be ignored, one is denying the whole reality
of growth in Jesus, transformation, the purging of our old self and the bringing to life the new self.

Many discussions have been had on the reality at new birth of this transformation, and the walk of
faith that then lies before us. Only the deluded claim perfection or being like Jesus at the start, yet
all seem to agree at the end we will be like Him. So that is really the discussion.

But the extreme we can seemingly agree on, is those who walk in open rebellion and sin, do not know Him.

Love. If love truly reigns in our hearts and is our desire then things based on evil and sin will not find a
home there. There will always be conflicts of motivation, and tensions between various issues, but in the
long run love will dominate as we seek to follow and praise the Lord.

So King David fell into sin with Bathsheba, but when confronted, repented, showed sorrow, and worked to
restore the situation. So it is with us with all our tensions and issues, it is not the immediate situation that
displays where we are in the Lord but how it works out in the long run, when we can choose our path, and
that which is not of the Lord.