Not By Works

[VCO]

Here is the issue:
So this thread is about justification: and in justification it is by faith and not by works - so keep works out of the discussion I am told.
But if we had a thread about sanctification: it is also by faith and not by works - so keep works out of that discussion also . . .?

Leaves me scratching my head? If we can't talk about works in a discussion of justification, then we can't talk about works in a discussion of sanctification either? So where do we talk about them . . . ?

You said, "This thread is about receiving salvation, Please stick to the topic. When you are talking about receiving salvation, and someone screams works, legalism is the culprit".

If you say that, then you must also say - "when you are talking about living salvation (sanctification), and someone screams works, legalism is the culprit."

Well - OK - but I am screaming anyway - WORKS!
I am screaming because I am not ashamed of works and I love that God has and is continuing to make me into His workmanship!

(Having said all that - I again say that I see your sentiment and agree - whether in a discussion of justification or of sanctification - it is easy to make works into a legalistic attaining or keeping of salvation! - and many here are doing it all the time!)

You have obviously MISTAKEN that SALVATION is the same as Sanctification; THEY ARE NOT.

SALVATION - the Human Spirit is birthed into ETERNAL LIFE - and only has to do with the spirit that the Holy Spirit birthed our spirit.
.......................... It happens in the moment the HOLY SPIRIT comes into our Heart (Human Spirit).
''.'''''
SANCTIFICATION - begins after SALVATION, and only has to with the body, molding it to be like CHRIST, and walk like HIM too.
...................................... It is a life long struggle, and will not be completed until the Resurrection.

WORKS have Nothing to do with Justification.

Romans 4:24-25 (HCSB)
24 but also for us. It will be credited to us who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.
25 He was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

Galatians 2:21 (NRSV)
21 I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.

Romans 5:16-18 (HCSB)
16 And the gift is not like the one man’s sin, because from one sin came the judgment, resulting in condemnation, but from many trespasses came the gift, resulting in justification.
17 Since by the one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive the overflow of grace and the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. [JESUS DID IT ALL.]
18 So then, as through one trespass there is condemnation for everyone, so also through one righteous act there is life-giving justification for everyone.


Becoming like Christ is part of our SANCTIFICATION, and we will be rewarded for that with CROWNS.

It NEVER is part of JUSTIFCATION or SALVATION.

 

[VCO]

Well then you cannot have a thread about justification without works either? . . .

Because both are the same: Justification is not by works: Sanctification is not by works.

No they are not the same. Yes it is Part of Sanctification, BUT IT HAS TO BE DONE OUT OF GODLY LOVE which is an act of pure LOVE.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

You have obviously MISTAKEN that SALVATION is the same as Sanctification; THEY ARE NOT.

This is like an old sqeaky record.
Put it simply Chester has not mistaken anything, he just has a different view to the one you have.
Are you going to send him to hell for this?

Or is there common ground you can explore and maybe learn to appreciate?
These threads appear sometimes like primary school lessons, stating and restating the same
points as if the individuals do not understand exactly what is being said.

At what point do you stop as say, they love Jesus, I love Jesus, Amen lets praise the Lord
together.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

How odd this is

A christian forum where to declare we are saved by faith in Jesus alone is deemed evil and wrong.
There are some guys who say do not add to the simple gospel.
Working faith, that changes who we are, born from on High to walk in His ways and truth, through
repentance from our sins, commitment to flee evil and walk in love and righteousness, forgiven
through the cross, is life ever lasting.

But hey these guys add, it must be passive faith or you are adding to Jesus's work and living in
unbelief that He alone changes us at the final judgement, we do nothing but enjoy the ride.

And suddenly the legalistic patrol appear to judge ones actions to make sure no evil good
works are being performed, only approved of Holy Spirit works or you are a works hypocrite.
And the law or anything about morality must be shunned as this is works salvation, and you
must not fear, that is unbelief, you must not criticise anyone, that is judgementalism and so the
list of rules and moral laws grow, not made by God but by man.

But what was claimed was this was the simple gospel, without rules or restrictions, without
guilt or a bad conscience, without trying to be righteous while knowing one is a sinner with
no hope of righteous walking.

As all these legalists discover, the thing they hate is what they create under a new name, because
they have missed we need to love God with all we are and love our neighbours as we love ourselves.

Not difficult if Jesus has opened your heart and brought love into your being, Amen.
God bless you all

 

[dcontroversal]

Gotta love the uninformed that believe love overrides the truth.......

LOVE and TRUTH go hand in hand.....without the LATTER there is NO LOVE...........and NO place are we commanded to disregard the TRUTH to embrace ANYONE in LOVE............

WE love THROUGH the TRUTH!!

 

[cv5]

Amen! Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. If we have saving faith in Christ then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things HOPED for.. (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life (Titus 3:7). Believers have eternal life as a present possession (John 5:24) but they still have not yet received their glorified bodies. Justification is the present tense of salvation and glorification is future tense of salvation.

We should always use the word assurance rather than hope. The english term hope is hopelessly inadeqate and shot full of doubt. In fact I hate that particular word even more so when used during preaching.

 

[VCO]

We should always use the word assurance rather than hope. The english term hope is hopelessly inadeqate and shot full of doubt. In fact I hate that particular word even more so when used during preaching.

I agree, ENGLISH IS A POOR Language at BEST, to translate the Bible into.

Hebrews 6:11 (NCV)
11 We want each of you to go on with the same hard work all your lives so you will surely get what you hope for.


Those two terms almost seem to contradict each other.

The thing that is a almost a SURE THING is to Hear our LORD SAY when we get there:

Matthew 25:21 (ESV)
21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’

Some how that English word hope seems slightly less than encouraging.

 

[stillness]

T

Let me just clue you in a bit....the only people I light up are those that reject truth, deny scripture, twist or skew scripture, peddle a false losable or gained, self maintained salvation....You do not know me, you do not know what I have done in my life, how many people I have led to the LORD or witnessed to, how I am one on one in person, the places and countries I have witnessed in etc. etc. etc....YOU guys assume that just because I lay some heat down, or use sarcasm or cut some no slack that I am some angry guy with no love or compassion and or insight....

NOW...having said that...THE BIBLE does not promote selling out the truth under some banner of oooey gooey love and or compromise for the sake of unity....TWO cannot walk together unless agreed....and make NO MISTAKE.....there are more gospels on this site than a Baskin Robbins Ice Cream Parlor and more skewed and twisted ideologies than Heinz 57 steak sauce....

ONE and only one GOSPEL has the power to save men....the rest are fraudulent, have no power to save and will lead the one espousing them straight to the pit.......

Thanks for cluing me in a bit, tho it took a while before i could apreciate it. At first I thought you were promoting yourself by works and falen into the judgment you judge with. It seems we are vulnerable to think the worst of each other because of the intensity ot the trouble of the end of time. I am not just refering to you and me but the quareling that is on the increase, prophesied for end time; among many other things we see fulfillled. Now i see you as saying like Paul, I count it all waste that I may gain Christ, and be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law but by faith,"...
As for me i wonder, the Lord told me over 3 years ago: I dont need your Help. Took me a while to figure, I need His help. Most of us are slow learners and patience is a fruit of the Spirit that we dont have appart from Him, so is self control. When we lack these we are falen from the influence of Grace that is alwais sufiscient for our need, and rather than cause a chain reaction of ofence, need to admit our need of repentance and prayer. My motive for coming here is not to impress dying people that i am wise. We all need to die daily to obtain Wisdom of God. And as we come short in need of prayer, in danger "Lest a root of biterness spring up defiling many." This was my motive for coming here, to encourage peolple to see diferently, that we often say the same thing difwrently, are slow of heart to believe, not continuing in prayer, giving toom for the enemy. In closing from Pauls advice on bearing with each other, as.He also tels us somewhere else, that if we dont discern each other as members of the body of Christ, "For this cause many are weak and sick and asleep among you."

"I say again, let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little. That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting. Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also. For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise. For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face. I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also."

 

[stillness]

Where in Hebrews does it say "you will fall from grace by turning to the law"? Please

Its in the book of Galatiens: "O folish Galatiens, who has bewitched you,"... The hiden meaning is that those under law are not in Christ. They have not died to the flesh and seek to be justified, as achieving obediece, rather than entering the Relationsip of Jesus in constant fellowship with the Father. "Having received forgiveness the abundance of His Grace that He poured out on us through Christ Jesus." Refering to the Holy Spirit poured in our Heart, to teach us concerning the things of Jesus, in rellationship with the Father. So that we are no longer trying to prove ourselves, but obtaining Grace to help: the influence of God in Christ in our earth to be in fellowship with the Father. Nothing to brag about here, it has been a 40 year journey in the wilderness since the first time then Lord spoke to me. 41 year actually, but I'm not counting last year as by grace there is an entering in, and just as Israel realised that entering in was against the will of the flesh. We fail or fall into Grace at the end of ourselves: we learn to cease from ourselves as we learn Unconditional Love. This last of 3 steps of maturity described in 1 John 2, also the meaning of the third coats or identity Joseph received. Represents unconditional Love:
Salvation is an ongoing experience of growing in Christ:

"All who have the veil removed, beholding the glory of the Lord, are changed into His Image from glory to Glory, by the Spirit of the Lord."

1John 2:12 addresses 3 steps of maturity past babes in Christ:

1: Little children who are forgiven

Becoming a disciple, following Christ in our understanding, but unable to get past and enter the Wisdom of God.

2: In fellowship with the Father as friends

“Strive to enter in at the Straight Gate for many shall seek to enter in and shall not be able.”

Getting past what we think we know in understanding to ascend in the Wisdom of God and nurture His children. "Lord you know all things, you know I Love you as a friend.' 'Then feed my sheep."

"We will give ourselves to Prayer and ministry of the Word."

3: Those who overcome the world

"I have written to you young men because you are strong and know the word of God dwells in you and have overcome the evil one."



The steps toward maturity are seen in the life of Joseph as 3 different coats (identity):

Interpreting in understanding and suffering rejection: this first dark night of loss of identity is unwillingly.

As a servant of no reputation leaving the coat to escape the pleasures of sin in the night of the spirit.

A worst dark night of free will taken away, to merge in the will of God and proclaim His deliverance.

 

[Noose]

Someone said, "...the HOPE listed is a confident expectation of something guaranteed...."

The question still remains, why would anyone have a confident expectation, of something they already have which they also think is irrevocable?

Asking for Paul.

Rom 8: 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

 

[DeighAnn]

1Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Corinthians 3:17 IF ANY man defile the temple of God, HIM SHALL GOD DESTROY for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2 Peter 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2 Peter 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Hebrews 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

WHAT WOULD IT TAKE TO MAKE YOU BELIEVE THAT ALL THE SCRIPTURE LISTED ABOVE, DOES NOT SAY WHAT IT seems to SAY?
Would that come across as confusing? What would that do to a Christian if every thing that seemed to be straight forward, cut and dry, wasn't at all what it seemed to be? Is God the author of confusion? No. will some try to convince, yes.

I have also been informed, you do not have to be "saved" for anything listed below.
1. be enlightened
2. tasted of the heavenly gift
3. partakers of the Holy Spirit
4. have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come
5. be renewed.

 

[stonesoffire]

He obviously cannot read or simply skims right over the word MEN.....

I didn’t see that either. Thanks!

 

[Carlos01]

Hi

 

[stillness]

What is this love for Him? can you describe it becoz the bible says we didn't love Him but He loved us.

The Love for Him, the "New Comanment," made posible by His Holy Spirit He sent us. "A New comandment I give to you, that you Love one another as I have Loved you; as I have Loved you, so you must Love one another."

"For asmuch as you have done it to the Least of these my friends, you have done it to me." Jesus is looking for His Love, given by us to the least estemed members of His body. The ones we would be tempted to ignore, or even despise, depending on our level off imaturity. I must mention because of controversy on this page, this is not a mater of salvation but of maturity or imaturity. Jesus has saved the whole world. "Whosoever will, let him come and drink of the Water of Life freely." Its about those who will "Grow up in Him in all things, witch is the Head, even Christ." "If we sufer with Him we will rule with Him." Some would rather quarel and remain babes or little children. But even those in fellowship with the Father can have quarels: Paul had a quarel with a man that he laiter reconnised as "Profitable for the ministry." Jesus ashured us we would have trouble, Paul expressed it as an endurance race. The Holy Spirit told me: Your not here to compete with anyone but to learn to percevere. That was a year and half ago when i worked in a recovery program in maintenance after compleating it. A few days ago he told me: Your not here to enjoy yourself.
Here i must quote a reference to silence the mouth of those who live in pleasure. "The time past of our life has sufficed us to have lived in pleasure,"... To know that it does not satisfy and having tasted of the Lord, to be willing to sufer with Him. "Be of good cheer I have overcome the world," Means count it all joy that I'm with you in trouble, "The Joy of the Lord is your strengh."

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Gotta love the uninformed that believe love overrides the truth.......

LOVE and TRUTH go hand in hand.....without the LATTER there is NO LOVE...........and NO place are we commanded to disregard the TRUTH to embrace ANYONE in LOVE............

WE love THROUGH the TRUTH!!

This is an interesting point. Jesus is Gods word in human form, the message of creation, love, truth and hope.

6 "I am the way, the truth and the life"
John 14

In Jesus we have the truth and love. No matter how you interpret it, truth flows through and by Him.
There is also a true reality, if you believe Jesus you will listen to Him.
If you love Him you will follow His commands and walk in His ways.

Jesus is Jonah preaching to Nineveh. Will we repent?

6 When the news reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, took off his royal robes,
covered himself with sackcloth and sat down in the dust.
7 Then he issued a proclamation in Nineveh: "By the decree of the king and his nobles:
Do not let any man or beast, herd or flock, taste anything; do not let them eat or drink.
8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God.
Let them give up their evil ways and their violence.
9 Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger
so that we will not perish."
Jonah 3

Are you going to listen to Jesus or to man?

39 He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign!
But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so
the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation
and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here.
Matt 12

 

[BillG]

Hi

Hi

 

[Noose]

Hi

Hallooo, welcome.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

WHAT WOULD IT TAKE TO MAKE YOU BELIEVE THAT ALL THE SCRIPTURE LISTED ABOVE, DOES NOT SAY WHAT IT seems to SAY?
Would that come across as confusing? What would that do to a Christian if every thing that seemed to be straight forward, cut and dry, wasn't at all what it seemed to be? Is God the author of confusion? No. will some try to convince, yes.

What will it take for you to see. That no one can earn salvation. When we received christ we are unworthy. And even today, we are unworthy.

Since we can not live up to the standard. Or as paul calls it the “glory” of God because of sin (literally a word which means to fall short) how can we ever lose salvation?

Does god save you at your worse, then kick you out because you do not grow enough? What?

 

[Smooth]

Not to mention that the HOPE listed is a confident expectation of something guaranteed....NOT they crap they peddle....a type of hope akin to when one buys a lottery ticket....

Excellent analogy regarding lottery tickets.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

What will it take for you to see. That no one can earn salvation. When we received christ we are unworthy. And even today, we are unworthy.

Since we can not live up to the standard. Or as paul calls it the “glory” of God because of sin (literally a word which means to fall short) how can we ever lose salvation?

Does god save you at your worse, then kick you out because you do not grow enough? What?

What will it take for you to accept we believe in Christ by working faith, not earning salvation but
being transformed and changed by our salvation as we allow Christ to break up our hard hearts,
and let love in to reign and change us, through repentance, love and forgiveness.

Falling short has never been the issue, it is trusting the Jesus can make us to walk in holiness
and purity that takes real faith. And when we fail, we confess, repent and walk on like all the
great men in God, prophets, apostles and teachers. Praise the Lord