Not By Works

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OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
1,431
2,208
113
@DeighAnn

You will not be saved because you abide in the vine, you abide in the vine because you are saved.


John 15
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.



___________

there are two sorts of brances here


branches that bare fruit
_____
"every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit"
"He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit"
_______

and branches void of any fruit
____
"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned"
"As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself"


this whole thing is largely an example of the power of CHRIST in His own

compared to the lack of power in fakers

pay attention to when this was said...
and what happened with judas specifically
.....
this is about two separate sorts of men/women who claim to be in Him and are part of the congregation


nothing to do with how to earn or keep salvation

(it is a gift by grace through faith)

men can't see all like God

man may say "where is this persons fruit" through a series of poor encounters

but God may know them and be working in them already


... even peter denied Jesus 3 times

there were men who could have clearly stated "he is not a believer"

but God knew better



(posted for context to help anyone who may not understand the parable)





goat and Sheep
Wheat and tares


His are kept by His power
and He will lose nothing


_____________



John 6:37 - All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 10:28 - And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Jude 1:24 - Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy

Romans 11:29 - For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.

1 John 5:13 - These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

2 Corinthians 1:22 - Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Philippians 1:6 - Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ

Romans8

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 

Smooth

Well-known member
Jul 22, 2019
460
627
93
Washed and purified - saint believer
Covered and hidden - sinner believer

The second sinner believer believes there is no washing or purifying so no standing before the Lord
in righteousness .
Jesus washes and purifies us. It’s a one time deal that lasts forever. Praise Jesus!
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Jesus washes and purifies us. It’s a one time deal that lasts forever. Praise Jesus!

If it is a one time deal you are perfect and sin never comes into your life from then on.
This idea overlooks a lot of scriptural examples.

7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner
who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
Luke 15

12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!
13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful;
he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted,
he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
1 Corinthians 10

19 My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back,
20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will
save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins
James 5

Simply put a believer who wanders and comes back is a sinner who is saved from death
and covers over a multitude of sins.

Not the immortal believer who is just our wandering about and nothing much has taken
place.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
3,709
4,074
113
62
Jesus washes and purifies us. It’s a one time deal that lasts forever. Praise Jesus!

If it is a one time deal you are perfect and sin never comes into your life from then on.
This idea overlooks a lot of scriptural examples.

7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner
who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
Luke 15

12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!
13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful;
he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted,
he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
1 Corinthians 10

19 My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back,
20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will
save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins
James 5

Simply put a believer who wanders and comes back is a sinner who is saved from death
and covers over a multitude of sins.

Not the immortal believer who is just our wandering about and nothing much has taken
place.
Not the immortal believer who is just our wandering about and nothing much has taken
place.

I would call the above a non believer , I have yet to meet a born again child of God behave this way...
Many CLAIM to know Christ , but Christ will say " I never knew you " ...xox...
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Not the immortal believer who is just our wandering about and nothing much has taken
place.

I would call the above a non believer , I have yet to meet a born again child of God behave this way...
Many CLAIM to know Christ , but Christ will say " I never knew you " ...xox...
Hi Rose,

I agree that a believer who has no fruit, their faith seems to have no effect on their life, I would suspect
something fundamental is missing.

The problem with formula's like believe this and you are instantly immortal, is when these people fall away.
It is much simpler to leave the elect in the hands of the Lord and help those along the way, encouraging
where one can.

A friend of mine had a good friend who was an alcoholic, had affairs, did not moderate his behaviour, yet
believed he was immortal spiritually, was a classic fruit of this teaching.

Paul obviously faced this in the church, and told the faithful to simply not even eat with such brothers.
I love the fact Jesus changes us at a fundamental level, though it takes time to see it. And you know when
a seed has sprouted, it is always obvious. Now His elect are eternal, and will walk into the Kingdom, are
shinning as part of the Kingdom, so our thoughts on immortality or otherwise just get in the way.

What we do need is that reassurance of faith, of being, of belonging, which the Holy Spirit gives in worship,
in prayer, in our communion with Him. But this is real, by faith, not manufactured but spoken in truth.
How great is our Lord that He would give us one another, to encourage, to minister and to bless.
Amen and God bless you
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,967
4,585
113
So Jesus allows those who are not saved to abide in Him? Partake of the root? Is that without belief? What does it take to abide? Faith but no love? Does it sound like "a little pregnant"? Then there must be a step above abide where you are now sure you are saved?

In the end God is going to Judge. Sheep over here, goat over there. What bothers me are horrible lousy people being able to say "I am saved" when you can CLEARLY see they are not. It gives Christianity a bad name. And the ONLY way that has come about is with this OSAS doctrine. You take that out and what you see when you see a Christian is a "Christ man". Christs' man. So why say "never really saved" as opposed to "you can lose it"? It is the same people. Maybe if they knew they could lose it they would treasure it for the precious gift it is. It kept me on the straight and narrow a time or two. I just don't get it. And it isn't because I haven't read all the verses. They just haven't come close to effecting a change of thought or heart. It just gets so complicated and the Word is easy, God wrote it for His foolish and sottish people.

No, no, it is not complicated, it is the Simplicity of FAITH. Before I was born again, I would have argued MUCH the SAME as you do, that I really was a Christian, THINKING I was a real Christian, without ever knowing that I did not even KNOW the MEANING OF THE TERM. I mean, I would have even fought against those that accused me that I was NOT A REAL CHRISTIAN.

The difference is NIGHT AND DAY. I used to know about Jesus, AND NOW I REALLY KNOW HIM! I used to be a LUTHERAN, LUTHERAN'S and NOT A CHRISTIAN LUTHERAN. I WAS A PROUD LUTHERAN, and WOULD HAVE QUOTED the Lutheran Catechism to anybody. I was PROUD of my Infant BAPTISM, thinking it saved me. I would have Proudly proclamed that I went to Lutheran Services Volunteer Camp. NEVER EVEN SUSPECTING THAT I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THE MEANING OF THE WORD SAVED, and sure of it. The same is true about Catholicism. There are LOTS of CATHOLIC, CATHOLIC'S, proud of their Catholic heritage, while worshiping MARY. HOWEVER there are a FEW CHRISTIAN, Catholics who WORSHIP CHRIST. Yes, I have met some of them.

The Night after my Third attempt at Suicide the last week of 1977, after being told by my wife of only 6 month, that she wanted a divorce because, I could not earn enough money to buy her what she wanted in life, on CHRISTMAS EVE no less. I spun into deep, deep depression, and over the next four days I attempt suicide THREE times. The first two times I had a pistol against my temple, with the trigger half pulled. A TERROR CAME OVER ME, not that I was about to die, BUT THAT I KNEW I WAS ABOUT TO WALK INTO HADES/HELL OF MY OWN ACCORD. IT WAS A TERROR WAY BEYOND BELIEF, WAY MORE THAN A MURDERER WITH A KNIFE TO MY THROAT COULD EVER PUT THAT TERROR IN ME, IT CAUSED ME TO DROP THE PISTOL BOTH TIMES.

The Third TIME, I had seen a road crew that afternoon POURING very thick Gravel on a Dirt Road two miles from my house. As I sat in a bar that night, getting as Drunk as I could without passing out. I thought about that LOOSE GRAVEL on that Dirt Road, and I was on my Dirt Bike, made me think of arranging a FATAL motorcycle accident for myself. I KNEW THE MOST DANGEROUS SURFACE YOU CAN RIDE A DIRT MOTORCYCLE ON, IS A VERY LOOSE GRAVELED ROAD. When the Bar Closed, I went home, to DROP MY HELMET OFF, and then immediately road out to the LOOSE GRAVEL ROAD, with NO HELMET, because I wanted to wreck my BIKE, and HIT HEAD FIRST loosing control at full speed. I EVEN TAUNTED GOD, as I approached that mile. I looked up at the sky, and shouted, "IF YOU WANT ME, YOU CAN TAKE ME ANYWHERE YOU WANT ME ON THIS MILE!" Please DO NOT TEST GOD THE WAY I DID!

I opened the throttle WIDE OPEN, Leaned out over the Handle Bars, to insure that I hit head first when I lost control. Around the half mile mark, I thought, "This makes no SENSE." Double Checked that the Throttle was WIDE OPEN, and it was, and I was as DRUNK AS I COULD GET. I HIT the Pavement at the ended of the Mile, slowed down and Stopped, looking back at that loose gravel, wondering, "WHAT JUST HAPPENED." I rode the enter mile ON LOOSE GRAVEL and it FELT LIKE I WAS RIDING ON PAVEMENT. I slowly went home and sat up most of the night, sobering up, and WONDERING, what happened on that road, and why I was not dead ? ? ?

I was sitting at the dining room table, and still about shortly before 5:00, and still wondering what happened ? ? ? I was sleepy so I decided to go to bed and I had the next Night off. As I walked in to the bedroom, A thought came to me. "I CANNOT RIDE A BIKE LIKE THAT, EVEN SOBER, AND I WAS AS DRUNK AS A HOOT OWL. GOD MUST HAVE REACHED DOWN AND GRABBED A HOLD OF MY BIKE, TO TELL ME, 'NO YOU DON'T, I HAVE A PURPOSE FOR YOUR LIFE.' " SUDDENLY, wave, after wave, after wave washed over me of GUILT OVER MY WHOLE LIFESTYLE, as I FELL TO MY KNEES, and that GUILT was so intense, it literally woke me totally up.

I STARTED TO CRY and WEEP like a BABY, and SOBBED as "I PRAYED, LORD FORGIVE ME, PLEASE FORGIVE ME." OVER, and OVER, and OVER AGAIN. AFTER AN HOUR OR SO, THAT CRUSHING WEIGHT OF SIN, eventually pushed me PROSTRATE on the FLOOR. I KEPT CRYING as I PRAYED, "LORD FORGIVE ME, PLEASE FORGIVE ME! If you have a purpose for my life, YOU have to come into my life, and do it through me. I cannot do it, I am making a mess of my life."

No one in the Church that I went to, ever taught me to pray a prayer like that, EVER. AND I MEANT EVERY WORD OF THAT PRAYER WITH MY WHOLE BEING. I believe it was the Holy Spirit that GAVE ME THAT Prayer as I CONTINUED TO WEEP AND CRY OVER MY UTTER SINFULNESS. I lost all track of time, but I CRIED FOR AT LEAST 2 or 3 Hours, or more.

That is where I usually end my testimony, BUT THERE IS MORE. I will tell you the rest, but you cannot make fun of it. IT WILL HURT ME DEEPLY, and MAKE ME REGRET TELLING YOU THE REST. I had an experience that shook me to my core; and for a long, long time just ended the testimony with Just admitting I cried for at least 2 or 3 Hours, or more. I was HAVING A HARD TIME BELIEVING HE COULD FORGIVE ME, BECAUSE I KNOW HOW BAD I USED TO BE. While I was Laying There prostrate on that bedroom floor, I had a VISION, or maybe if I fell asleep it could have been a DREAM, but if it was a DREAM, is was the most intense and vivid DREAM I could ever have, but I do not recall getting tired.

The VISION or DREAM was I found myself on my KNEES still CRYING and WEEPING FOR FORGIVENESS, at the FOOT OF THE CROSS, REACHING UP TO HIM on that CROSS, as I continued to CRY. Then I noticed something that I HAD NEVER BEEN TAUGHT IN THE LUTHERAN CHURCH and NO ONE ELSE HAD EVER TRIED TO TEACH ME EITHER. THE NAILS WERE THROUGH HIS WRISTS. (Since then I have been taught that they had to have been through HIS wrist, because the flesh would have torn through in HIS Palms. PLUS the JEWS consider the WRISTS to be part of the Hands.) As I was focusing on the nails, BLOOD STARTED TO DRIP FROM THOSE NAILS, AND FELL ON MY FOREARMS, AND IT FELT WARM. I NEW AT THAT MOMENT I WAS FORGIVEN!

That is where the VISION or DREAM ended. That was the night I was Born Again. I AM SURE OF IT. IT WAS A COMPLETE TOTAL SURRENDER OUT OF LOVE FOR HIM, AND I HAVE NEVER DOUBTED IT IS VERY REAL, FOREVER. NOW I KNOW HIM INTIMATELY, BEFORE I only knew about Him. The infant baptism did not save me, the memorization of the Lutheran Catechism did not save me, Church membership in the Lutheran Church did not save me, I only KNEW in my head about JESUS and all STORIES about HIM WERE TRUE IN THE BIBLE, BUT even the demons believe that much.

I TRUSTED HIM TOTALLY, and THAT HE WAS GOING TO DO SOMETHING IMPORTANT WITH MY LIFE. MY HUMAN SPIRIT WAS ALIVE, AND I COULD TELL, MY HUNGER FOR THE WORD OF GOD WAS THROUGH THE ROOF. THE MOST BORING BOOK ON EARTH, JUST BECAME THE MOST EXCITING BOOK I COULD EVER READ. HE lead me to various Radio and TV ministries, I was content and satisfied in my Human Spirit with the teaching of Dr. John MacArthur, Dr. Chuck Swindoll, Dr. Charles Stanley, Dr. Ed Young, Dr. Richard Lee, Dr. Zola Levitt, Dr. Ben Haden. I found a VERY GOOD BIBLE TEACHING CHURCH, in Lincoln, NE. where Dr. Gil Rugh taught a one hour SERMON. I couldn't get enough of that GOOD Bible Teaching. And all of them and every CHURCH that I have been associated with, is conservative evangelical style of Churches. DID HE TAKE CONTROL OF MY LIFE ? ? ? ABSOLUTELY! How does a Nebraska Farm Boy, become a Volunteer Protestant Prison Chaplain, with NO FORMAL BIBLE COLLEGE Training, in the end-of-the-line CA. supermax Prison for 9.5 years, and then 5.5 years more at another supermax Prison? HE KNOWS HOW? He just kept opening the doors, and I just kept walking through.

IT AWES ME TO THINK BACK THROUGH ALL HE HAS DONE IN MY LIFE.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,877
4,332
113
I agree that a believer who has no fruit, their faith seems to have no effect on their life, I would suspect
something fundamental is missing.
I agree with the above.

The problem with formula's like believe this and you are instantly immortal, is when these people fall away.
It is much simpler to leave the elect in the hands of the Lord and help those along the way, encouraging
where one can
The above I disagree with and agreebwith.
It's not a formula.
Yes let's help and encourage others.
That's our calling.


A friend of mine had a good friend who was an alcoholic, had affairs, did not moderate his behaviour, yet
believed he was immortal spiritually, was a classic fruit of this teaching
Let's go back to with what I agree with.
Something is missing.
What is missing?
They use grace as a license to sin?
Or do such things because they do not realise what they are doing is a result of the past.

Given the 3rd quote of yours I would be like you concerning the first quote.
But would try to get behind the scenes and the cause of the affect.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
I agree with the above.

The above I disagree with and agreebwith.
It's not a formula.
Yes let's help and encourage others.
That's our calling.

Let's go back to with what I agree with.
Something is missing.
What is missing?
They use grace as a license to sin?
Or do such things because they do not realise what they are doing is a result of the past.

Given the 3rd quote of yours I would be like you concerning the first quote.
But would try to get behind the scenes and the cause of the affect.
I wonder if life is actually a spinning top. All things in people need to line up, and then they
are ready. We get glimpses, feelings, certainty followed by trials and troubles.
Some make it through, others do not.

You can always backwards project, but I think that is us making sense of Gods ways and plan.
Do I choose, or does God draw? Do I know or does God reveal? Do I break or does God convict?
The mystery is we do not know, except all is involved. God bless you
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
Hi D...
This is true...

Matthew 7:7
"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
xox...
AMEN ROSE......keep swinging.....the bible has all the answers for sure......How you doing My English friend and sister from another mother
 

Smooth

Well-known member
Jul 22, 2019
460
627
93
Jesus washes and purifies us. It’s a one time deal that lasts forever. Praise Jesus!

If it is a one time deal you are perfect and sin never comes into your life from then on.
This idea overlooks a lot of scriptural examples.

7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner
who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
Luke 15

12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!
13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful;
he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted,
he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
1 Corinthians 10

19 My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back,
20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will
save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins
James 5

Simply put a believer who wanders and comes back is a sinner who is saved from death
and covers over a multitude of sins.

Not the immortal believer who is just our wandering about and nothing much has taken
place.
Newsflash! YOU are a sinner, yesterday, today and all the tomorrows of the rest of your life. FACT.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
Did God die? Have you been made the judge? Are you so exalted that you see hearts now?
No he is not God, but @Smooth can read...........IF WE say that WE have NO SIN, WE are deceived and the TRUTH is not in US

John wrote that....He wrote 5 books of the N.T., saved, immersed, an Apostle of JESUS

WE, WE, WE, US <-----he writes in the present tense and includes himself.

Funny thing.....I come into your suicide thread, make three biblical statements and you come make a mouthy remark about people coming in a thread and just running their mouth....

You are one of the most self righteous hypocrites this site has seen in a long time...........
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,967
4,585
113
Did God die? Have you been made the judge? Are you so exalted that you see hearts now?

NO, but you can see Spiritual FRUITS that they WILL PRODUCE.

Galatians 5:22-23 (NKJV)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control
.
Against such there is no law.

Matthew 7:16 (NKJV)
16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?


Matthew 7:20 (NKJV)
20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.