I sympathize with OSAS because no one was more a defender of the idea then I. I still believe about 95% of it. I realize now that what I was defending was the power of God to keep one who believes in Jesus Christ, and I still believe in that. What I was not taking into account is the will of man. Why do we have Christians in this and other forums claiming doctrines to be true that are totally diverse from one another? Why did one of the greatest athletes of our time decide to pretend to be a woman? Why did a preacher who was equal or better then Billy Graham one day decide that he believed evolution rather then the bible? Why did Demas decide that he would rather forsake Paul then to suffer for being a Christian like Paul did? In this life God has given us a free will, and humans have used that freedom to choose to do everything imaginable. To know how humans are and to assume that no human who has accepted Christ, would at some point for some reason, decide to reject Christ, is ridiculous! Almost as ridiculous as believing that the God who gave us this free will would take it away from a human and not allow them to choose to reject Christ. God loves people with a love we cannot even imagine, yet he allows them to go to hell if that is what they will to do. To sum this up, a Christian can forsake Christ if they want to, and God will allow a Christian to forsake Him if that is what they want and a person who dies in a state of rejection of Christ is not saved, even if they were saved at one time.
Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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The bible is clear......Salvation is either based upon Faith/GRACE or WORKS......if it is works it is NO LONGER GRACE.....the following is true...
Grace<----all glory goes to GOD in Christ
Works<---MEN steal the glory from God and Christ
Not by works of righteousness which we HAVE DONE Titus 3:5
Not of works lest any man should boast Ephesians 2
Blessed is the man to whom God iputes righteousness without the deeds of the law (no works) Romans 4
He that believes on the Son is having everlasting life (no works) John 3
If you believe with all your heart that God has raised him from the dead thou shalt be saved (no works) Romans 10
We conclude a man is justified (before God) by faith without the deeds of the law (works) Romans 3
Know that a man is not justified by works of the Law, but by faith in Jesus Christ (no works) Galatians 2
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ (no works) Romans 5
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. (no works) John 3
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise (No works) Ephesians 1
There is not one verse that states we are saved or kept saved by works.....any work or fruit produced is a by product of the salvation and faith one already possess in Christ......as matter of fact PAUL states clearly that ALL who preach or blend faith and works for salvation (to gain of keep) are foolish and bewitched and preaching a false gospel with no power and one that is double cursed......!
GALATIANS 1 and 3
Grace<----all glory goes to GOD in Christ
Works<---MEN steal the glory from God and Christ
Not by works of righteousness which we HAVE DONE Titus 3:5
Not of works lest any man should boast Ephesians 2
Blessed is the man to whom God iputes righteousness without the deeds of the law (no works) Romans 4
He that believes on the Son is having everlasting life (no works) John 3
If you believe with all your heart that God has raised him from the dead thou shalt be saved (no works) Romans 10
We conclude a man is justified (before God) by faith without the deeds of the law (works) Romans 3
Know that a man is not justified by works of the Law, but by faith in Jesus Christ (no works) Galatians 2
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ (no works) Romans 5
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. (no works) John 3
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise (No works) Ephesians 1
There is not one verse that states we are saved or kept saved by works.....any work or fruit produced is a by product of the salvation and faith one already possess in Christ......as matter of fact PAUL states clearly that ALL who preach or blend faith and works for salvation (to gain of keep) are foolish and bewitched and preaching a false gospel with no power and one that is double cursed......!
GALATIANS 1 and 3
If we believe NOT (after we have believed) HE abides faithful because he CANNOT DENY HIMSELF...........I will never leave thee NOR FORSAKE THEE.....
A son by birth is a son by birth REGARDLESS of what he does.....My son (DAVID PAUL) is my son by birth......H can leave my house, go to jail, move to the uttermost part of the earth, deny me, reject me, say he is not mine and NONE of those things will change the fact that he is MY SON BY BIRTH......I MAY grieve these things and take his inheritance away (loss of reward), but I cannot deny that he is my son by birth and remains my son by birth.......
You guys need to get over this farce that we can disown God and walk away and it causes the loss of our born again of incrruptable seed status...ONCE a son by BIRTH always a son BY BIRTH!
A son by birth is a son by birth REGARDLESS of what he does.....My son (DAVID PAUL) is my son by birth......H can leave my house, go to jail, move to the uttermost part of the earth, deny me, reject me, say he is not mine and NONE of those things will change the fact that he is MY SON BY BIRTH......I MAY grieve these things and take his inheritance away (loss of reward), but I cannot deny that he is my son by birth and remains my son by birth.......
You guys need to get over this farce that we can disown God and walk away and it causes the loss of our born again of incrruptable seed status...ONCE a son by BIRTH always a son BY BIRTH!
Some truths that SHOULD be fairly obvious:
1.) There is no such thing as "hyper" grace. It's not even biblical, because the bible mentions NOTHING about hyper grace. There is ONLY grace, pure and simple.
2.) OSAS IS biblical. The bible states that the ONLY way to lose salvation is to deny God and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. The bible does NOT say "if you lose faith, you get unsaved". That is a completely ridiculous concept.
3.) Works do NOT save us. They do NOT keep us saved. They do NOT get us into heaven. We are to do them, as God commands us to, but not for the purpose of gaining or keeping salvation.
4.) The notion of daily salvation is silly. When you are already saved, you DON'T need to HOPE for daily salvation. And salvation should not be referred to as a "cookie". That just makes salvation sound like a reward that we can earn for being good people..
5. There is no such thing as sinless perfection. That phrase contradicts itself. It is IMPOSSIBLE to be perfect and sinless, in an evil, fallen world. We are NOT immortals yet..
1.) There is no such thing as "hyper" grace. It's not even biblical, because the bible mentions NOTHING about hyper grace. There is ONLY grace, pure and simple.
2.) OSAS IS biblical. The bible states that the ONLY way to lose salvation is to deny God and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. The bible does NOT say "if you lose faith, you get unsaved". That is a completely ridiculous concept.
3.) Works do NOT save us. They do NOT keep us saved. They do NOT get us into heaven. We are to do them, as God commands us to, but not for the purpose of gaining or keeping salvation.
4.) The notion of daily salvation is silly. When you are already saved, you DON'T need to HOPE for daily salvation. And salvation should not be referred to as a "cookie". That just makes salvation sound like a reward that we can earn for being good people..
5. There is no such thing as sinless perfection. That phrase contradicts itself. It is IMPOSSIBLE to be perfect and sinless, in an evil, fallen world. We are NOT immortals yet..
According to the law of God their must be heresies (differences of opinion) among believers.
I would suggest one of the main the differences is to do with what you call “free will”.
Freely He has given to us His will…. freely we have received.
Free will to a new creation is a desire to do the will of God, as our spiritual food which is more necessary then for these bodies of death that will die It what man originally was designed to do. Doing the will of another, the serpent, man fell. The Son of man did not come to do his own will .It is him we follow after as the kind of food the disciples knew not of we are exercising free will in respect to a new will when he works in us to both will and do His good pleasure.
We will to do the will of another our father in heaven That would be Christian free will.
Free will to a unbeliever (no faith) the skies the limit.
In the mean while his disciples prayed him, saying, Master, eat.But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of.Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. Joh 4:31
I would suggest one of the main the differences is to do with what you call “free will”.
Freely He has given to us His will…. freely we have received.
Free will to a new creation is a desire to do the will of God, as our spiritual food which is more necessary then for these bodies of death that will die It what man originally was designed to do. Doing the will of another, the serpent, man fell. The Son of man did not come to do his own will .It is him we follow after as the kind of food the disciples knew not of we are exercising free will in respect to a new will when he works in us to both will and do His good pleasure.
We will to do the will of another our father in heaven That would be Christian free will.
Free will to a unbeliever (no faith) the skies the limit.
In the mean while his disciples prayed him, saying, Master, eat.But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of.Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. Joh 4:31
Imagine you are lame, blind, deaf leper going on a perilous journey across a very dangerous mountain area. In regard to a promised healing You are going with a guides literally being carried whom had done this route before. Your life is literally in their hands. Now if you do not go with them, you will never get there and there is no other guide who can take you where you need to go. After reaching the half way mark the guides leave you?
The concept of born again giving a person a new spirit, new heart that could never die it seems to evade many. It becomes born again, again, again, again, again, again, and a again crucifying the Lord of Glory subjecting Him to public shame as if one demonstration of the work of the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world (six days he did work)to pay eternal (full) wage of our sin fell short of the glory of God .
It appears to be the results of offering dead works of repentance(faith towards God) every time a person falls ,again and again .
Dead works (works we perform) and not as He works in us to both will and do His good pleaure.His good works>
Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Dead works.. is offering what we do as if the faith came from us.Isaiah calls it upside down
Isa 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?
Christainity in respect to the work of Christ's faith turns it right side up.
Act 17:6 And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also;
It appears to be the results of offering dead works of repentance(faith towards God) every time a person falls ,again and again .
Dead works (works we perform) and not as He works in us to both will and do His good pleaure.His good works>
Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Dead works.. is offering what we do as if the faith came from us.Isaiah calls it upside down
Isa 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?
Christainity in respect to the work of Christ's faith turns it right side up.
Act 17:6 And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also;
Gee, PJ, you ought to quit "lashing out" at false teachers, liars & hypocrites before they report you for being honest.
Makes you wonder if you're in the right place, doesn't it?
Why don't you just go ahead & say you're OSAS? Most folks that are are proud of it.
Just come on out of the closet, I mean, who's gonna get on yer case if you do? Yer not gonna lose any friends over it or anything.
Yes, they all do, but that doesn't mean they're not hard-hearted.
And BTW, I believe He would tell them a lot more than that, if they would listen.
Most of interpretation of tongues today basically say what you stated the HS says.
However, stating He would never forsake apostates is totally false.
However, I wouldn't insult the Spirit by stating that's all He ever says when the church is going thru the Falling Away.
A loving God would warn us we're about to fall into the fire.
Makes you wonder if you're in the right place, doesn't it?
Why don't you just go ahead & say you're OSAS? Most folks that are are proud of it.
Just come on out of the closet, I mean, who's gonna get on yer case if you do? Yer not gonna lose any friends over it or anything.
Yes, they all do, but that doesn't mean they're not hard-hearted.
And BTW, I believe He would tell them a lot more than that, if they would listen.
Most of interpretation of tongues today basically say what you stated the HS says.
However, stating He would never forsake apostates is totally false.
However, I wouldn't insult the Spirit by stating that's all He ever says when the church is going thru the Falling Away.
A loving God would warn us we're about to fall into the fire.
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A
Apostates arent God's legitimate children. (the difference between the children of Hagar and Sarah)
What else do you believe the Holy Spirit would tell His kids?
Eternal security implies its a continous process. OSAS implies it only happens once AND is too easily misunderstood and used for false conversions that lead to easy believism.
What else do you believe the Holy Spirit would tell His kids?
Eternal security implies its a continous process. OSAS implies it only happens once AND is too easily misunderstood and used for false conversions that lead to easy believism.
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The bible is clear.....except one be born from above they will have no abilty to rightly divide and or understand the truth.....Paul was clear...ALL who believe or teach a cafe blend of faith plus works for salvation (to gain or keep) have been bewitched and fooled by a false gospel which has NO power to save---> a false gospel which is double cursed......end of story.....Salvation is the beginning.....if one does not come by the ONE and only ONE door....they will NOT be born again from above.....end of story....a hard truth, but true nonetheless!
Just when you thing you saw it all.....
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Amen DCON!
2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
The true way of transformation in Christ is by "beholding" the glory of the Lord as in a mirror. When we see the glory of the Lord we are transformed by the Holy Spirit.
"Transformed" is in the passive mood which mean the Holy Spirit changes us to reveal the life of Christ that is in us outwardly so that others can see Christ. We participate with the Spirit of God within us in this.
We participate in this with Him "For it is God who is at work in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure." Phil. 2:13
This "putting on of Christ" is paramount in order for others to see the real Christ that is in us. This being transformed is seen as renewing the mind to the truth of Christ and all that He has done. Romans 12:2
The real question is - just what is the "glory of the Lord"?
Glory which is "doxa" in Greek means "weight; the value indicated on a scale when a commodity would be weighed in the market place." When there was no scale which could measure the weight of a commodity. It was considered as "doxa".
"Doxa" is a reading that is beyond the scale. It is a "good opinion" in meaning also.
When you rest in God's opinion of you, when you are persuaded of His persuasion, when you accept His acceptance, and you believe in His belief of you, you are beholding and living in the "glory" of God. It's a manifestation of His goodness as He showed Moses when he asked to see His glory. God showed him His goodness.
He has completely and unconditionally given Himself over to you and He has revealed His love and grace in the Lord Jesus Christ. Does this want to make us go out and sin all we want? No, a thousand times No!
It makes our hearts melt in love for Him as we see Him for who He truly is and run to the One who loves us and gave His life for us. We have died and our true life is hidden with Christ in God. Col. 3:3
2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
The true way of transformation in Christ is by "beholding" the glory of the Lord as in a mirror. When we see the glory of the Lord we are transformed by the Holy Spirit.
"Transformed" is in the passive mood which mean the Holy Spirit changes us to reveal the life of Christ that is in us outwardly so that others can see Christ. We participate with the Spirit of God within us in this.
We participate in this with Him "For it is God who is at work in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure." Phil. 2:13
This "putting on of Christ" is paramount in order for others to see the real Christ that is in us. This being transformed is seen as renewing the mind to the truth of Christ and all that He has done. Romans 12:2
The real question is - just what is the "glory of the Lord"?
Glory which is "doxa" in Greek means "weight; the value indicated on a scale when a commodity would be weighed in the market place." When there was no scale which could measure the weight of a commodity. It was considered as "doxa".
"Doxa" is a reading that is beyond the scale. It is a "good opinion" in meaning also.
When you rest in God's opinion of you, when you are persuaded of His persuasion, when you accept His acceptance, and you believe in His belief of you, you are beholding and living in the "glory" of God. It's a manifestation of His goodness as He showed Moses when he asked to see His glory. God showed him His goodness.
He has completely and unconditionally given Himself over to you and He has revealed His love and grace in the Lord Jesus Christ. Does this want to make us go out and sin all we want? No, a thousand times No!
It makes our hearts melt in love for Him as we see Him for who He truly is and run to the One who loves us and gave His life for us. We have died and our true life is hidden with Christ in God. Col. 3:3