Not By Works

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Nov 16, 2019
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No one keeps the law.....and that is what you cannot grasp......break the least = guilty of the whole...ALREADY GUILTY AND CONDEMNED.....

That is why the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST WITHOUT THE LAW IS IMPUTED TO US BY FAITH.....

But carry on with thinking you or anyone else keeps the law.....and I will remind you that from birth to death you must keep every applicable law 24/7/365 days a year, every second, every minute, every hour or YOU ARE A LAW BREAKER!
But the argument is being made that believers who turn to the law for justification (like the Galatians did) can't lose their justification. So why are Festival and Sabbath law keepers being condemned to hell in this and other threads?

(And by the way, I do not observe the laws of Sabbaths and Festivals of the old covenant.)
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Is this a new method of biblical interpretation one verse out of its surrounding context:(

Read the entire passage ....the law does not justify.

Paul is not saying the law will unjustify.

Read on...." So brothers we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

Free..that is the status of the believer, it does not change.....Paul is telling them to live in their new status in the new covenant.


Where do you get the idea that a new method of Biblical interpretation is interpreted by it Surrounding Context?

I am 70 years old and as far as I am concerned it is the ONLY way to Interpret.

I was taught there are only three rules for Biblical Interpretation.

1. Read the Context.
2. Read the Context.
3. Read the Context.


That idea goes back at least to Martin Luther.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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His name was Eli.

It's a Hebrew name עֵלִי Eli.

Eleven out of sixty English Bible versions, at Bible Gateway , translate the name Eli... f.y.i.

Take it, or leave it, . . .


That post is over 2 years old.

So how do you know me?

I have a link to this site on my Menu Bar, and sometimes I forget to change it to the newest post.

Have you read this verse:


1 Timothy 5:1 (NIV)
1 Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father. Treat younger men as brothers,
 
Dec 12, 2013
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But the argument is being made that believers who turn to the law for justification (like the Galatians did) can't lose their justification. So why are Festival and Sabbath law keepers being condemned to hell in this and other threads?

(And by the way, I do not observe the laws of Sabbaths and Festivals of the old covenant.)
How is it that you cannot grasp the truth that there is but one gospel of salvation that actually has power to save....Galatians as well as other books and verses quite clearly show that when ONE embellishes the CORRECT message with any of the following things, it will VOID the gospel and render it inoperative....no power to save....

Faith plus ANY OF THE FOLLOWING to gain, keep, top off, embellish or finish salvation (as a gospel message) will render the message invalid with no power to save.

Works of any flavor
Law Keeping
Immersion <-correct mode of baptism
Church sacraments
Sabbath keeping
Religious hoop jumping
Communion
Giving a tithe
Sprinkling <- not valid as baptism
Anything we do or DO NOT DO

Biblical salvation is 100% faith into the finished work of Christ. It is based on his power, his work, his promises, and it is eternally given as a free gift and is irrevocable.

When MEN corrupt it by ADDING their own religious hoop jumping they VOID IT and it is rendered INOPERATIVE.

That is why the above are getting raked over the coals...When they say YOU MUST DO THIS OR THAT TO GET SAVED OR REMAIN SAVED (OTHER THAN FAITH) THEY have devalued and voided the gospel!
 
Sep 6, 2014
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So how do you know me?
We had correspondence with each other five years ago former volunteer chaplain orville.

You wrote this...
"Good to meet you Vince, I helped disciple a Construction Worker who was building High Desert State Prison and was a brand new born again believer, going to Ft. Dick Bible Church with me; AND HIS NAME WAS VINCE TOO! My Name is Orville N....., and the VCO stands for Volunteer Chaplain Orville. My move to California was not as big of a change in jobs as you think. I was working in the Post Office in Nebraska for many Years on the night shift as a Clerk, sorting mail. Two months before we moved, I got promoted to the best job I ever had in the Post Office: Vehicle Operations Maintenance Assistant, Day Shift with Weekends off. It was not heavy mechanic work, but just minor stuff like changing burned out turning signal bulbs, and shuttling the vehicles that needed serious repair to the Local Garage that had the contract to repair our vehicles. I transferred to Susanville, California as a City Letter Carrier. When you transfer in the Post Office, you LOSE ALL YOUR SENIORITY, and go back to being Low Man on the Totem Pole. I had put in for the transfer, six months earlier, even tho the Postmaster told me he would not have an opening for five years. When that call came that night, offering me the job, because one guy quit and another got fired, I stopped for about 5 seconds and asked myself, "Does God still want me in California?"; and the answer came back loud and clear, YES.

On that vacation when I had put in for that transfer to Susanville, we also went to Church at Grace Community Church near L.A. where Dr. John MacArthur is the Senior Pastor. From there we went through Kingman, AZ. and I decided to talk to that Postmaster too, and HE NEEDED TO HIRE A CITY CARRIER YESTERDAY, and wanted me as fast as I could get moved. I told him to Start the Paperwork, and we went to a local Motel. That NIGHT I did not sleep one wink, and I was in torment the the entire night, with a feeling that I had just done something horribly wrong. I woke my wife and told her, you have to pray with me, about this job. We prayed for about a half hour, and she still went back to bed. I continued to be in torment, with that feeling that I had done something horribly wrong. I normally sleep like a rock, as soon as my head hits the pillow, and here I was pacing the floor, praying, laying on the bed starring at the ceiling, with my mind in agony. I woke my wife again, and told her she had to pray with me again, and she said, "No I don't, you have to pray by yourself and talk to GOD." About 5:30 AM the answer came to my mind. I needed to turn down this job in Kingman, AZ. and wait for an opening in Susanville, Ca. STILL that heavy weight on me, like I had done something horribly wrong, would not go away. It was not until 8:00 AM when I went back to that Postmaster and told him to his face that I had prayed about it, and GOD let me know that I had to wait for an opening in Susanville, Ca. AND AS SOON AS I TOLD HIM, that horrible guilt feeling and all of it's weight, lifted right off.

A few days later it hit me, what had actually happened. Do you remember reading when Paul was on his Second Missionary trip, and wanted to go to Asia, but the Holy Spirit prevented him from going there.

Acts 16:6-10 (HCSB)
6 They went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia and were prevented by the Holy Spirit from speaking the message in Asia.
7 When they came to Mysia, they tried to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them.
8 So, bypassing Mysia, they came down to Troas.
9 During the night a vision appeared to Paul: A Macedonian man was standing and pleading with him, “Cross over to Macedonia and help us!
10After he had seen the vision, we immediately made efforts to set out for Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to evangelize them.
Like I said IT HIT ME, the HOLY SPIRIT PREVENTED PAUL from going to the wrong towns, and I had just gotten a big taste of how the Holy Spirit did it.

There is lots more that I can share with you, and will in the future if you want. I do not think we had more miracles happen in our lives than any other born again Christian, but by His grace, we both were made more keenly aware of what was the hand of GOD working in our lives than many.

One more quick true story. When I accepted the transfer to the Post Office in Crescent City on the Coast, 17 miles South of Oregon, I went directly to the Realtor's Office from the Postmaster's Office to look for a rental. The Realtor, told us there were NO rentals available at all, because all of the Construction Workers building the new Prison had grabbed them all up. That was 1:00 PM as we walked out of the Realtor's Office, so we decided to just drive around town looking for FOR RENT signs that were not advertised in the Paper or through the Realtors. Finally as I was going north out of town on the old highway, I did a U-Turn to go back downtown to look down another street, and spotted the orange letters FOR RENT on a black sign in the window of a Trailor House across the street. We went and talked to the Park Manager, and she said, "I am surprised that someone is here to look at this Rental already, I just put the sign up 35 minutes ago." I looked at may watch and sure enough it was 1:35 PM on the button. I smiled at her, as I thought to myself, "GOD PROVIDED!"

I wrote this back...
"Wow, brother, that is really awesome testimony,....... I'm glad you have the courage to share the vision you had that night. There are many similarities in our shared experience of being anointed with the Holy Spirit. Knowing for certain (not just a thought) that we were forgiven of our sins through the precious blood of Jesus Christ our Savior when the day dawned and the day star arose in our hearts, you had a vision of the warm blood dripping on your arms and i woke up dancing not remembering what dream i had or vision but knew my sins were forgiven and it was because of the precious blood of Jesus Christ. Same call to scripture for spiritual growth, and instruction after being anointed. We moved from Ca to Ar to Ohio, same thing, with no money in our pockets me driven by the Spirit to "GET OUT OF HERE (in Ca) AND GO". i never would of brought myself here to Ohio (or AR) without the Spirit driving me as those places were probably last on my list. My family going back for generations had lived here in Ohio and most have moved out long ago to warmer and more prosperous places. Some to Ca some to FL, some to N.C.
7 years in the furnace of affliction was my season brother, oh what suffering, i weep as i type here....... i suffered the loss of our dogs, our children to us at that time both died in front of me, my mom killed herself 4 days before her 59th birthday, and many other things i suffered until the season was gone. Almost 7 years to the day that i was anointed with the Holy Spirit my wife who i had been together with for 23 years finally got pregnant after all those years of trying to be parents and 9 1/2 months later God brought us a son to take away our shame. 1 week before his 1st birthday my wife found out that she is pregnant again. So i can see God has brought me into the land of my dad's to bless me and many of the troubles i had then seem to be long gone while God continues to strengthen me from that hard season and bless me in every way.

It was interesting as well that you mentioned that you changed occupations. As a tradesman of 13 years, it seems since i got anointed i can't find a way to fit in with the life i once knew. Having no hatred to hold in my heart,no lust, no lie to come up with, no want of filthy lucre,it feels like i'm just out there to get used and abused by co-workers and customers alike.......lol. i often wonder if God is calling me to some other vocation like He did with you, maybe that's why he brought me here. You have given me some things to think and pray upon for sure, thank you brother :)
Vince"

We corresponded with each other here at CC for about a month, by exchanging messages back and forth from early December 2014- until mid January 2015. That's how I know you volunteer chaplain orville, did you forget?

I have a link to this site on my Menu Bar, and sometimes I forget to change it to the newest post.
Okay, so why don't you reply to posts 2 years old or older more frequently if that's the case?

Have you read this verse:


1 Timothy 5:1 (NIV)
1 Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father. Treat younger men as brothers,
I have read that verse, and where exactly did you find me harshly rebuking you volunteer chaplain orville?

Have you read these verses?

2 Timothy 4:1-5
I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 3For the time is coming when people will not endure sounda teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. 5As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
 
Sep 6, 2014
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biblehub.com
So how do you know me?

I have a link to this site on my Menu Bar, and sometimes I forget to change it to the newest post.

Have you read this verse:


1 Timothy 5:1 (NIV)
1 Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father. Treat younger men as brothers,
Maybe you need to get your meds straightened out or something is seriously wrong.
I'll pray for you Orv.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,969
4,074
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Your point is not clear. Can you summarize this in a sentence or two and tell me why people in this thread are telling Festival and Sabbath law keepers who believe in Jesus that they are going to hell even though it is also being said by those same people that believers who seek justification through the law (assuming that's what they're doing) are still justified and saved?

Okay, I have read your post 3 times, and little of it makes sense to me. I have not seen anyone doing what you are accusing them of, HOWEVER, I do not read every post. I suspect you are misunderstanding them.

Most people who classify themselves as keeping the Festivals and Sabbath Law Keepers, only have head knowledge of JESUS.

If you KEEP all the Festivals and Sabbaths, and only have head knowledge of JESUS, you are NOT BORN AGAIN, and will probably end up in hades, bitterly wailing, and gnashing there teeth against GOD. I cannot see the Heart, but I can discern FRUIT, and NO LOVE equals not Saved. WHY? Because they did not establish a Spiritual LOVING REALATIONSHIP with HIM, embracing a HEART (Spiritual) KNOWLEDGE of HIM personally.

It is not Head Knowledge that SAVES, BUT it is a HEART KNOWLEDGE deep in your human spirit, that equals BORN AGAIN.

HE wants that sincere Spiritual Heart Knowledge of HIM personally. If you have Only a Head Knowledge of HIM, even if you keep all the Festivals and Sabbaths, is only modern day Pharisee-ism.

James 2:19 (NIV)
19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

If you are NOT Born Again, you are not saved. If you think this is all foolishness, here is the reason:

1 Corinthians 2:12-14 (NIV)
12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.


The difference between being a LOST PERSON, and a SAVED PERSON, is only about 18 inches, the same distance between your Head and your HEART.

Look at this example:

Matthew 7:21-23 (NIV)
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
{Even tho they kept every Festivals and every Sabbath, they still only had head knowledge.}
23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'


That "I never knew you" is the Inner, Personal, LOVING RELATIONSHIP with JESUS CHRIST, that is BORN AGAIN, when the Holy Spirit IMMERSES YOU into the Spiritual Body of Christ.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,969
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Are you okay... that post was from two years ago?
I have a link on my Menu Bar to this site. and on rare occasions, I forget to change it to the Last Post is all. Now if you think that is strange, YOUR DAY IS COMING, and those memory lapses are only the tip of the ICEBURG. ENJOY your senior years. LOL
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,969
4,074
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Maybe you need to get your meds straightened out or something is seriously wrong.
I'll pray for you Orv.

Now I read what I wrote about Vince the Construction Worker, but I do not remember it. There is a Medical reason though. You see I have had a series of 7 Strokes, the 3 one was the worst. I lost all kinds of memory, but came out of it with little physical damage, but for at least 6 weeks my computer skills went bye, bye on 1 Jan., 2019. I almost had to learn all of it over again, and slowly the memory started coming back, but that is one post I do not remember. Sorry. Apparently it also slowed down my mind, so I do not attempt to read every post. They got me on the right med now, as I have not even had a hint of a Stroke problem sense I was put on Xarelto back in January, a blood thinner. I know sooner of later a big one will take me home.

Vince and I used to go fishing for Steelhead. But I never got one landed.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,969
4,074
113
Now I read what I wrote about Vince the Construction Worker, but I do not remember it. There is a Medical reason though. You see I have had a series of 7 Strokes, the 3 one was the worst. I lost all kinds of memory, but came out of it with little physical damage, but for at least 6 weeks my computer skills went bye, bye on 1 Jan., 2019. I almost had to learn all of it over again, and slowly the memory started coming back, but that is one post I do not remember. Sorry. Apparently it also slowed down my mind, so I do not attempt to read every post. They got me on the right med now, as I have not even had a hint of a Stroke problem sense I was put on Xarelto back in January, a blood thinner. I know sooner of later a big one will take me home.

Vince and I used to go fishing for Steelhead. But I never got one landed.
My mistake the 3rd Stroke was the Summer of 2018, the one on 1 Jan., 2019, only effected my right arm temporarily. God was Merciful, as I am right handed. It was weird as my right arm was TOTALLY NUMB for an hour and a half. Then 5 days later I had three in my right arm over 3 hours, but they went away even faster than the 4th one.
 
Sep 6, 2014
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biblehub.com
Now I read what I wrote about Vince the Construction Worker, but I do not remember it. There is a Medical reason though. You see I have had a series of 7 Strokes, the 3 one was the worst. I lost all kinds of memory, but came out of it with little physical damage, but for at least 6 weeks my computer skills went bye, bye on 1 Jan., 2019. I almost had to learn all of it over again, and slowly the memory started coming back, but that is one post I do not remember. Sorry. Apparently it also slowed down my mind, so I do not attempt to read every post. They got me on the right med now, as I have not even had a hint of a Stroke problem sense I was put on Xarelto back in January, a blood thinner. I know sooner of later a big one will take me home.

Vince and I used to go fishing for Steelhead. But I never got one landed.
I really appreciate your candor. Thank you for that, and for sharing your experiences with us here.

I'm glad that you made it through all those hard times, you have my respect sir.

To God be the glory.

Maybe one day, we all will be sitting there with Jesus, in paradise, and catch us one of those Steelheads together.

Until then,.......

Happy Thanksgiving friend.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
I have a link on my Menu Bar to this site. and on rare occasions, I forget to change it to the Last Post is all. Now if you think that is strange, YOUR DAY IS COMING, and those memory lapses are only the tip of the ICEBURG. ENJOY your senior years. LOL
I hope when I get there my posts will be as colour coded and fanciful as yours.:)
 
Nov 16, 2019
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How is it that you cannot grasp the truth that there is but one gospel of salvation that actually has power to save....Galatians as well as other books and verses quite clearly show that when ONE embellishes the CORRECT message with any of the following things, it will VOID the gospel and render it inoperative....no power to save....

Faith plus ANY OF THE FOLLOWING to gain, keep, top off, embellish or finish salvation (as a gospel message) will render the message invalid with no power to save.

Works of any flavor
Law Keeping
Immersion <-correct mode of baptism
Church sacraments
Sabbath keeping
Religious hoop jumping
Communion
Giving a tithe
Sprinkling <- not valid as baptism
Anything we do or DO NOT DO

...

When MEN corrupt it by ADDING their own religious hoop jumping they VOID IT and it is rendered INOPERATIVE.

That is why the above are getting raked over the coals...When they say YOU MUST DO THIS OR THAT TO GET SAVED OR REMAIN SAVED (OTHER THAN FAITH) THEY have devalued and voided the gospel!
This is what I've been saying.
The Galatians lose their justification in Christ by going back to keeping Festivals and Sabbaths for justification.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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This is what I've been saying.
The Galatians lose their justification in Christ by going back to keeping Festivals and Sabbaths for justification.
No....that is not what I am saying and they never lost the justification and salvation they have in Christ....the point Paul is making is simple......Grace for a believer is positional, when one steps back under the law they are stepping out of that positioning of Grace......he is not saying they lost salvation and or justification.....

Grace or Law <-- they cannot be mixed like oil and water....one or the other[/QUOTE]
 
Nov 16, 2019
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Okay, I have read your post 3 times, and little of it makes sense to me. I have not seen anyone doing what you are accusing them of, HOWEVER, I do not read every post. I suspect you are misunderstanding them.

Most people who classify themselves as keeping the Festivals and Sabbath Law Keepers, only have head knowledge of JESUS.

If you KEEP all the Festivals and Sabbaths, and only have head knowledge of JESUS, you are NOT BORN AGAIN, and will probably end up in hades, bitterly wailing, and gnashing there teeth against GOD. I cannot see the Heart, but I can discern FRUIT, and NO LOVE equals not Saved. WHY? Because they did not establish a Spiritual LOVING REALATIONSHIP with HIM, embracing a HEART (Spiritual) KNOWLEDGE of HIM personally.

It is not Head Knowledge that SAVES, BUT it is a HEART KNOWLEDGE deep in your human spirit, that equals BORN AGAIN.

HE wants that sincere Spiritual Heart Knowledge of HIM personally. If you have Only a Head Knowledge of HIM, even if you keep all the Festivals and Sabbaths, is only modern day Pharisee-ism.

James 2:19 (NIV)
19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

If you are NOT Born Again, you are not saved. If you think this is all foolishness, here is the reason:

1 Corinthians 2:12-14 (NIV)
12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.


The difference between being a LOST PERSON, and a SAVED PERSON, is only about 18 inches, the same distance between your Head and your HEART.

Look at this example:

Matthew 7:21-23 (NIV)
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
{Even tho they kept every Festivals and every Sabbath, they still only had head knowledge.}
23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'


That "I never knew you" is the Inner, Personal, LOVING RELATIONSHIP with JESUS CHRIST, that is BORN AGAIN, when the Holy Spirit IMMERSES YOU into the Spiritual Body of Christ.
The Galatians were born again, yet Paul warned them that their return to law keeping for justification would result in making Christ of no effect to them for justification and would make them sons who are slaves who have no part in the inheritance. So the 'not really born again' argument doesn't work.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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No....that is not what I am saying and they never lost the justification and salvation they have in Christ....the point Paul is making is simple......Grace for a believer is positional, when one steps back under the law they are stepping out of that positioning of Grace......he is not saying they lost salvation and or justification.....
Then why are believers who keep the law condemned to hell by people in this forum? You say believers can not lose their salvation and go to hell for any reason, but when a believer says they keep the law of Festivals and Sabbaths they immediately get condemned to hell for trying to be justified by the law, yet you say the believers at Galatia did not lose their salvation for doing that and only lost God's favor within salvation.