Not By Works

PS · Dec 3, 2019

Thank you.
Would you say this scripture tells us we are always saved in all circumstances?

Hebrews 6:4-6 - It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

eternally-gratefull · Dec 3, 2019

PerfectlyTwisted said:

1 john 3
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Not sure why the words forever. Eternal. Not neither, nor seem to give people a hard time.

If A person who sins have NEVER seen or known God. And a child of God DOES NOT sin (live in or habitual) then how can a child of God sin themselves out of salvation?

eternally-gratefull · Dec 3, 2019

PerfectlyTwisted said:

There is sin which causes physical death

but Christ paid the price for all sin so sin can never again cause spiritual death for those in Christ.

as the old hymn goes. Jesus paid it all.

eternally-gratefull · Dec 3, 2019

Judges1318 said:

Yes, but the 'trust and belief' must continue in order for the result to continue.

1 John 2:24 KJV
Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

The condition for continuing in the Son, and in the Father is that the gospel you heard in the beginning remain in you. Paul says the same thing here.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

That's not a works gospel as some claim. The condition for salvation is not works. The condition is that you receive and retain the gospel message in a continuing faith.

No argument about that. The moment you trust in Christ, your faith (your believing) is credited to you as righteousness.

Turning from sin is part of the good news about Jesus. It's just that repentance does not earn justification. But it definitely is a necessary part of the the gospel message.

Acts 2:37-38 KJV
what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 3:19 KJV
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out

Just because repentance itself is not what secures a justification of righteousness that doesn't mean it's not an integral and necessary part of the gospel. You will not be saved if you do not change your mind about Christ and your sin. The person who hasn't changed his mind about sin ends up being the fake believer that gets talked about so frequently in threads like this. He wants the free gift but he doesn't want to renounce his sin. He thinks he can have the free gift without a change of mind about his sin. Won't happen.

The prerequisite to being persuaded that you can save yourself is an honest acknowledgment of your sin and your guilt. Hatred of your sin and your slavery to it is the foundation to then realizing you need Christ and Christ alone to rescue you from it. So turning from sin is definitely an integral part of the gospel. It's just that repentance itself is not what secures justification. But you must have a repentant attitude to be justified. That's not works.

That's how it works.

He'll do everything he can to keep you from falling away from your belief in justification through Christ, but ultimately that's your decision. That's not you working for your justification. That's you wanting the free gift of justification or not. You can't cast it away in unbelief and still have it. I showed you above that you have to continue in the word of the gospel in faith in order to remain in the Son and the Father.

Even if you want to argue the old Calvinist argument that only truly born again people retain what they heard in the beginning in faith, that still means you have to continue in what you heard in the beginning to be saved. You can't separate salvation and a continued belief in Christ like so many are claiming you can do. You have to keep trusting in Christ to be saved.

Your continued ignoring of 1 john 2 and the perfection of those being sanctified in hebrews astonishes me.

your faith is in your ability to keep your faith, not in gods ability to keep you in faith.

thats sad!

eternally-gratefull · Dec 3, 2019

Judges1318 said:

Read carefully what he's saying.
All believers sin, but that doesn't have to mean they have stopped believing in Christ. But when their sin does mean they have stopped believing in Christ that's a whole 'nuther matter.

The person who has stopped believing has no choice but to go back to the slavery of his sin. He has fallen away from Christ. That is different than the person who sins but is still trusting in Christ for salvation. They aren't 'living in' sin. They haven't fallen away from Christ.

I guess you could say the reason the 'believer' is sinning determines if the free gift of salvation is still valid for them. Sinning because you have cast away the free gift of justification in unbelief will cause you to not have that free gift anymore. You can't have the free gift that you no longer believe and trust in. You can't have the benefit of a sacrifice you do not have anymore because you do not trust in it anymore.

legalism 101

now read 1 John 3. Whoever sins has NEVER SEEN OR KNOWN GOD

a child of god can not sin,because he has been born of god

repent and trust Christ and stop trusting yourself.

eternally-gratefull · Dec 3, 2019

Judges1318 said:

You can’t lose a gift. Otherwise a gift is not a gift. It is a down payment

why do you insist on working for salvation?

eternally-gratefull · Dec 3, 2019

PS said:

Even when we are faithless he is faithful

how much faith did jesus say could move a mountain,

you know how small a mustard seed is?

you either have faith

or your an antichrist with no faith

period.

john said they never knew us

end of story according to scripture,

eternally-gratefull · Dec 3, 2019

Judges1318 said:

Yes, the saved person is saved for eternity. That's not the issue. The issue is, you have to keep believing in Christ to have the benefit of his sacrifice which never stops interceding for you in heaven. Under the old covenant the sacrifice did stop interceding for you and whatever life it secured for you came to end and you had to make repeated sacrifices because the one before it got used up.

Eternal life doesn't mean you can't lose it even if you stop believing in Christ. It means the life giving effect of the sacrifice of Jesus never ends like it did for the sacrifices under the old covenant. That's why we should not throw away the confidence we have in the sacrifice of Jesus that never stops giving life. Don't throw away the sacrifice that keeps on giving, forever.

Then your. not really saved.

because your still relying on your ability to trust god. Not in gods ability to perfect you like he promised.

PS · Dec 3, 2019

eternally-gratefull said:

Some people have a false faith.

Some people believe they can murder and do all sorts of unholy things and still be saved.

It seems some people do not believe in the judgement.

Some people even Red Cross scripture that says:-

Hebrews 6:4-6 - It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Some people are false teachers.

EleventhHour · Dec 3, 2019

PS said:

It would seem you 're woefully unaware that it impossible to for Jesus to loose one of His own.

I am completely dismayed daily by those that come to this thread and promote that Christ Jesus is an incompetent Saviour.

Judges1318 · Dec 3, 2019

EleventhHour said:

Jesus doesn't lose them in that he is somehow some bumbling idiot who fails in his ministry. As evidence of this, Jesus said one was lost because of the failure of the person (Judas), not because of a failure of Himself.

EleventhHour said:

You can have the best doctor in the world but if you don't keep your appointments and don't do what he says and you die it's not because of some supposed incompetence on the part of the doctor. That won't happen. That's what it means for Jesus to not lose any (except the one who was lost-Judas). It's the person's fault, not Jesus' fault.

PS · Dec 3, 2019

EleventhHour said:

You have it the wrong way round. It is not the fault of Jesus that that some sheep are lost, rather it is the fault of the sheep who think the grass in the other field is greener, so they leave the Good Shepherd and wander astray into another field.

If we do that, and "take words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life" (Rev 22:19)
By disregarding some scriptures, you are doing what you should not be doing.

Hebrews 6:4-6 - It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Hebrews 10:26-31 - If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God

2 Peter 2:20-22 - If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

2 Peter 3:17 - Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

1 John 2:24 - See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.

Melach · Dec 3, 2019

PS said:

the sheep dont just leave the good shepherd thats not biblical. but you not knowing anything about the bible is nothing surprising. you believe jews followed a false god in the ot and dont believe God commanded tehm to take out the canaanites etc. evil nations. heretic. you are calling the God of israel a false god. thats a big worry, if you can lose salvation i guarantee thats something that made you just lose it. by calling one of the big men of faith moses as following false god.

here is the truth about the sheep, they dont just start wondering and the good shepherd looks around and says too bad they left cant do anything dumdeedaah what kind of failure god do you have?

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

says the good shepherd loses nothing and the sheep dont just walk away and shepherd is sitting there idle. remember people dont listen to this guy PS he is a villain heretic doesnt even believe in the God of israel. what a joke this man is allowed on this forum to spread unbelief. if u think im too hard or dont believe me go read the "God is a moral monster" thread where dibby and PS have been busy disrespecting Yahweh.

VCO · Dec 3, 2019

PS said:

IF THEY ONLY TASTED TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT, AND THE GOODNESS OF THE WORD OF GOD, they were NEVER BORN AGAIN.
BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS, WE CONSUMED that HEAVENLY GIFT, and the HOLY SPIRIT CAME IN TO OUR HEARTS, and HUNGER AND THIRST FOR THE WORD CONTINUES. I COULD NOT GET ENOUGH when I was Saved the LAST WEEK of 1977, and it continues today.

SO THIS VERSE REMAINS ONE HUNDRED PERCENT ABSOLUTE TRUE.

1 John 2:19-20 (HCSB)
19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you have knowledge. [.WE ABSOLUTELY KNOW HIM, NOT JUST TASTED.]

PS · Dec 3, 2019

VCO said:

They never knew the Lord, but we are talking about people who escaped from the world and into the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

2Pe 2:20-22 KJV
(20) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
(21) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
(22) But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

PS · Dec 3, 2019

Show me scriptures that say those who turn away from the Lord are still saved.

(Dog walk time.)

CherieR · Dec 3, 2019

PS said:

You have it the wrong way round. It is not the fault of Jesus that that some sheep are lost, rather it is the fault of the sheep who think the grass in the other field is greener, so they leave the Good Shepherd and wander astray into another field.

If we do that, and "take words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life" (Rev 22:19)
By disregarding some scriptures, you are doing what you should not be doing.

Hebrews 6:4-6 - It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Hebrews 10:26-31 - If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God

2 Peter 2:20-22 - If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

2 Peter 3:17 - Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

1 John 2:24 - See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.

Jesus describes himself as the good Shepherd in John 10:11. In Psalm 23:1 David says , " The LORD is my Shepherd, I shall not want." Sheep will wander. Jesus as the Good Shepherd is diligent to keep his flock( his people).

For me, I have felt the need for Jesus to be my Good Shepherd, one who would guide me in the right way and seek me when I go astray and keep me secure eternally, and always love me and be there for me.

Melach · Dec 3, 2019

eternally-gratefull said:

its standard human condition. worker salvation is default position of humans. thats why all religions are works based religions where good and bad deeds are weight on scales and if you do more on good side you make it if not no

thats why we need to get away from that human condition that natural depravation state. so we need God to born us again. then we are a new creature in Christ

i can speak from experience. people in that worker condition are in the flesh still

VCO · Dec 3, 2019

PS said:

If were not Saved BEFORE TIME BEGAN, you remain spiritually DEAD?

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

1 John 3:14 (HCSB)
14 We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers. The one who does not [.Have Godly Love that never ceases.] Love remains in death.

WHERE DOES THAT GODLY LOVE COME FROM?

Directly from GOD, HE had the HOLY SPIRIT POUR IT INTO OUR HEARTS {Human Spirit} at the moment of the BORN AGAIN experience.

Romans 5:5 (NIV)
5 And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

You have to be BORN AGAIN, to be SAVED. You are counting Disciples that were never Born Again, THUS NONE OF THEM WERE OF US. Disciples in the GREEK only mean Followers and Learner of any TEACHER. Remember John the Baptist had Disciples. YOU HAVE TO BE BORN AGAIN to Understand what this GODLY LOVE is all about.

My guess is YOU have Never been Born Again, probably because your Church does not teach it, or has a false idea of what it is.

BORN AGAIN only HAPPENS when the HOLY SPIRIT births in our heart our Human Spirit into ETERNAL LIFE, when we WILLINGLY surrender Control of our LIVES to JESUS CHRIST as LORD purely out of LOVE FOR HIM. IT IS NOT ETERNAL IF YOU CAN LOSE IT.

1 Corinthians 2:6-14 (NIV)
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"--
10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So are you willing to give ALL the Control of your life to HIM, confessing all Sin, (co-mission and o-mission sins) ?

Or are you too busy being lord of your own life, to be bothered ?

PS · Dec 3, 2019

CherieR said:

That is how it should be, and that is excellent, you are a child of God, but there are those who for one reason or another turn their back on God and reject Him. That is very silly I know, but people do have a change of heart and it is only those I am talking about.

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