Not By Works

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PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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If were not Saved BEFORE TIME BEGAN, you remain spiritually DEAD?

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

1 John 3:14 (HCSB)
14 We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers. The one who does not [.Have Godly Love that never ceases.] Love remains in death.


WHERE DOES THAT GODLY LOVE COME FROM?

Directly from GOD, HE had the HOLY SPIRIT POUR IT INTO OUR HEARTS {Human Spirit} at the moment of the BORN AGAIN experience.

Romans 5:5 (NIV)
5 And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

You have to be BORN AGAIN, to be SAVED. You are counting Disciples that were never Born Again, THUS NONE OF THEM WERE OF US. Disciples in the GREEK only mean Followers and Learner of any TEACHER. Remember John the Baptist had Disciples. YOU HAVE TO BE BORN AGAIN to Understand what this GODLY LOVE is all about.

My guess is YOU have Never been Born Again, probably because your Church does not teach it, or has a false idea of what it is.

BORN AGAIN only HAPPENS when the HOLY SPIRIT births in our heart our Human Spirit into ETERNAL LIFE, when we WILLINGLY surrender Control of our LIVES to JESUS CHRIST as LORD purely out of LOVE FOR HIM. IT IS NOT ETERNAL IF YOU CAN LOSE IT.


1 Corinthians 2:6-14 (NIV)
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"--
10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.


So are you willing to give ALL the Control of your life to HIM, confessing all Sin, (co-mission and o-mission sins) ?

Or are you too busy being lord of your own life, to be bothered ?
Yes, our salvation was planned before the earth began and was fulfilled by Jesus Christ. (Thank you, Lord!)
This is why we can never know Jesus too much, and we need to have Him in our thoughts the whole time. I forget where it is, but Paul said to pray unceasingly and I would add "in praise and worship."

This little study though, is about those who once knew Christ, but for reasons best known to themselves, now deny Him.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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its standard human condition. worker salvation is default position of humans. thats why all religions are works based religions where good and bad deeds are weight on scales and if you do more on good side you make it if not no

thats why we need to get away from that human condition that natural depravation state. so we need God to born us again. then we are a new creature in Christ

i can speak from experience. people in that worker condition are in the flesh still
The top line of my signature:
Your life with Jesus Christ is finished if you try to be made right with God through the law, (Gal 5:4 ERV)

We can be rejected. Even if someone is working hard at their salvation, there is no guarantee they will be with Christ in heavens glory.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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its standard human condition. worker salvation is default position of humans. thats why all religions are works based religions where good and bad deeds are weight on scales and if you do more on good side you make it if not no

thats why we need to get away from that human condition that natural depravation state. so we need God to born us again. then we are a new creature in Christ

i can speak from experience. people in that worker condition are in the flesh still
Yep, that's a no-go. Justification is not gained by adding up enough good deeds. (y)
Justification is by faith in the blood of Christ.
And you have to keep believing in the blood of Christ to remain justified before God.
Believing is not the works that can't justify. So that's not a works gospel.

Romans 4:5 NAS
to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness


In the verse, believing to be justified is in contrast to working to be justified. But people keep insisting that if you have to believe and keep believing to be justified then you are working to earn your salvation. That's not what the verse says.
 
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That is how it should be, and that is excellent, you are a child of God, but there are those who for one reason or another turn their back on God and reject Him. That is very silly I know, but people do have a change of heart and it is only those I am talking about.
Yep. The saved Galatians changed their mind about Christ.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Yes, our salvation was planned before the earth began and was fulfilled by Jesus Christ. (Thank you, Lord!)
This is why we can never know Jesus too much, and we need to have Him in our thoughts the whole time. I forget where it is, but Paul said to pray unceasingly and I would add "in praise and worship."

This little study though, is about those who once knew Christ, but for reasons best known to themselves, now deny Him.

I do not use colors and bold text, for anything but EMPHASIS. I do not have an Face Book Account, I am old school, therefore I do not go by Face Book RULES.


We believe the BIBLE, and thus:


Romans 10:8-10 (NASB)
8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART [HUMAN SPIRIT]"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess [.NOT MERELY PROFESSING, AS THOSE WHO FALL AWAY,] with your mouth Jesus as Lord [HAS TO BE ABSOLUTE TRUE IN YOUR HUMAN SPIRIT,], and believe in your heart [.IN YOU HUMAN SPIRIT,] that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, [.THEN AND ONLY THEN WILL THEN EXPERIENCE THE HOLY SPIRIT IMMERSE YOU INTO THE SPIRITUAL BODY OF THE LORD AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CHRISTIAN WATER BAPTISM, 1 Corinthians 12:13,] resulting in salvation. [.THE MOMENT YOU FIRST GENUINELY BELIEVE, AND IT IS AND ETERNAL LIFE YOU HAVE BEEN GIVEN, WHICH MEANS YOU CANNOT LOSE IT.]

John 10:26-30 (HCSB)
26 But you don’t believe because you are not My sheep.
27 My sheep hear My voice,
I know them, [.That inner and personal LOVE relationship with HIM as LORD, that only comes with BORN AGAIN.]
and they follow Me.
28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 The Father and I are one.”
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
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Jesus doesn't lose them in that he is somehow some bumbling idiot who fails in his ministry. As evidence of this, Jesus said one was lost because of the failure of the person (Judas), not because of a failure of Himself.



You can have the best doctor in the world but if you don't keep your appointments and don't do what he says and you die it's not because of some supposed incompetence on the part of the doctor. That won't happen. That's what it means for Jesus to not lose any (except the one who was lost-Judas). It's the person's fault, not Jesus' fault.
I am thinking this post more tragic than all the Shakespearean tragedies combined.

The blame shift does not work .....in case you did not know God is in control.

Our will is not the source faith!
Salvation has not gifted based on our will.

Do you know the Gospel?
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
9,013
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Yes, our salvation was planned before the earth began and was fulfilled by Jesus Christ. (Thank you, Lord!)
This is why we can never know Jesus too much, and we need to have Him in our thoughts the whole time. I forget where it is, but Paul said to pray unceasingly and I would add "in praise and worship."

This little study though, is about those who once knew Christ, but for reasons best known to themselves, now deny Him.


You have the WRONG IDEA about what KNOWING HIM actually means. IT IS NOT INTELLECTUALLY KNOWING WHO HE IS, even the demons believe that much. IT IS KNOWING HIM IN YOUR HUMAN SPIRIT INTIMATELY.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
4,676
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I do not use colors and bold text, for anything but EMPHASIS. I do not have an Face Book Account, I am old school, therefore I do not go by Face Book RULES.


We believe the BIBLE, and thus:


Romans 10:8-10 (NASB)
8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART [HUMAN SPIRIT]"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess [.NOT MERELY PROFESSING, AS THOSE WHO FALL AWAY,] with your mouth Jesus as Lord [HAS TO BE ABSOLUTE TRUE IN YOUR HUMAN SPIRIT,], and believe in your heart [.IN YOU HUMAN SPIRIT,] that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, [.THEN AND ONLY THEN WILL THEN EXPERIENCE THE HOLY SPIRIT IMMERSE YOU INTO THE SPIRITUAL BODY OF THE LORD AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CHRISTIAN WATER BAPTISM, 1 Corinthians 12:13,] resulting in salvation. [.THE MOMENT YOU FIRST GENUINELY BELIEVE, AND IT IS AND ETERNAL LIFE YOU HAVE BEEN GIVEN, WHICH MEANS YOU CANNOT LOSE IT.]

John 10:26-30 (HCSB)
26 But you don’t believe because you are not My sheep.
27 My sheep hear My voice,
I know them, [.That inner and personal LOVE relationship with HIM as LORD, that only comes with BORN AGAIN.]
and they follow Me.
28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 The Father and I are one.”
We are not talking about believing Christians though are we, we are talking about people who used to believe once-upon-a-time, but over the years have lost faith, and turned their back on God, deliberately and knowingly rejecting Him.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
4,676
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113
You have the WRONG IDEA about what KNOWING HIM actually means. IT IS NOT INTELLECTUALLY KNOWING WHO HE IS, even the demons believe that much. IT IS KNOWING HIM IN YOUR HUMAN SPIRIT INTIMATELY.
I am talking about heart love.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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Thank you.
Would you say this scripture tells us we are always saved in all circumstances?

Hebrews 6:4-6 - It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Do you believe if a person who seemingly rejects Jesus, or wanders of the path, goes astray can come back to Jesus?
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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Do you believe if a person who seemingly rejects Jesus, or wanders of the path, goes astray can come back to Jesus?
Yes. The Good Shepherd will seek them out and bring them back to the fold.

That is not the situation described in the scriptures I posted. I see you have one from Hebrews 6 in your post.

Please, it is not me saying this, it is Holy Writ.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,147
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Yes. The Good Shepherd will seek them out and bring them back to the fold.

That is not the situation described in the scriptures I posted. I see you have one from Hebrews 6 in your post.
Thanks for clarifying.

Just another few questions if you don't mind.

Does not your response indicate that Jesus will not lose anyone whom God has given him? After all he will seek them out and bring them back.

If so does he not already know who are his and will be saved?
No point seeking the non saved to bring them back to still being non saved.

I also noticed that the response to me says "I see you have one from Hebrews 6 in your post" I can't see that in my post to you.

I'm not trying to trip you up here.
But there are many against OSAS or E/S who wrote Hebrews 6 for their case yet believe a person can be restored but the passage clearly says they cannot.

So if you don't mind can you clarify the situation described in Hebrews for me.

Ta

Bill
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
9,013
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We are not talking about believing Christians though are we, we are talking about people who used to believe once-upon-a-time, but over the years have lost faith, and turned their back on God, deliberately and knowingly rejecting Him.


THEN THEY DID NOT KNOW HIM INTIMATELY, and WERE NEVER BORN AGAIN.

YOU CANNOT UNBAKE A CAKE to it's original INGREDIENTS, BORN AGAIN Changes your Characteristics from the INSIDE OUT.

YOU WILL NOT FORSAKE HIM, unless YOU WERE NOT SAVED IN THE FIRST PLACE. Yes, there is such a thing as a prodigal son in the beginning, but the prodigal WILL COME BACK TO THE FATHER. THE NON BORN AGAIN so-called CHRISTIAN will NEVER RETURN.

YOU HAVE TO BE BORN AGAIN, or NO-SALVATION is your destiny.

John 10:26-30 (HCSB)
26 But you don’t believe because you are not My sheep.
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand. (Not even SELF can remove you from Salvation, all you do is prove you were NOT Saved in the first place.)
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 The Father and I are one.”


Philippians 1:6 (HCSB)
6 I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

2 John 1:2 (HCSB)
2 because of the truth that remains in us and will be with us forever.

Ephesians 1:11-14 (HCSB)
11 We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will,
12 so that we who had already put our hope in the Messiah might bring praise to His glory.
13 When you heard the message of truth,
the gospel of your salvation, and when you [genuinely] believed in Him, you were also sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. [Even your will cannot brake the seal of GOD, or you just proved you were NEVER Born Again.]
14 He is the down payment of our inheritance, for the redemption of the possession, to the praise of His glory.

[Once sealed by the HOLY SPIRIT, you will always return to the FATHER, even if you wonder away, because the HOLY SPIRIT will keep prodding you, until you do confess and repent. I guess you have never felt his Prodding, have you?]


1 John 3:19-20 (HCSB)
19 This is how we will know we belong to the truth and will convince our conscience in His presence,
20 even if our conscience condemns us, that God is greater than our conscience, and He knows all things.

1 John 2:19-20 (HCSB)
19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you have knowledge. [Know HIM.]

1 Peter 1:3-5 (HCSB)
3 Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. According to His great mercy, He has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
4 and into an inheritance that is imperishable, uncorrupted, and unfading, kept in heaven for you.
5 You are being protected by God’s power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

1575406248078.jpeg


Acts 20:30 (HCSB)
30 And men will rise up from your own number with deviant doctrines to lure the disciples into following them.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Then your. not really saved.

because your still relying on your ability to trust god. Not in gods ability to perfect you like he promised.

These peddlers of a self sustained and maintained salvation have a very bad day coming at the last day! No genuine faith in their message
 
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There is sin which causes physical death

but Christ paid the price for all sin so sin can never again cause spiritual death for those in Christ.

as the old hymn goes. Jesus paid it all.
Like the words spoken from the cross....It is finished <-- a legal accounting term...PAID IN FULL.....at the end of the day bro...they do not trust Jesus by faith regardless of what they may say!
 
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Your continued ignoring of 1 john 2 and the perfection of those being sanctified in hebrews astonishes me.

your faith is in your ability to keep your faith, not in gods ability to keep you in faith.

thats sad!
The Bible ->> Jesus begins, finishes and completes the wirk of faith in us.

His false version -> I finish and complete the work of faith in me

One of the above saves.....the other leads to the pits of hell
 
Dec 12, 2013
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legalism 101

now read 1 John 3. Whoever sins has NEVER SEEN OR KNOWN GOD

a child of god can not sin,because he has been born of god

repent and trust Christ and stop trusting yourself.
Good luck with that.....one must drop the false religion before they can actually see clearly to trust Jesus!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Even when we are faithless he is faithful

how much faith did jesus say could move a mountain,

you know how small a mustard seed is?

you either have faith

or your an antichrist with no faith

period.

john said they never knew us

end of story according to scripture,
Amen...if we BELIEVE NOT, he abides faithful because he cannot deny himself <--written to believers

My Lord said he will begin, finish and COMPLETE his work of faith in me.....

Their god must be weak, ineffectual, inept and not found in the bible if they must help him cross the finish line