Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
Having the "knowledge" of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge.
That's right.
Faith 'alone' (just knowing that the gospel is true) does not save anybody.

Only people who act on the knowledge God has given them will be saved.
Doing nothing with that knowledge and not applying it to your life is the same as casting it away in unbelief.
The one talent person did nothing with what he was given and was lost.
Faith without works can not save.

James 2:14,18,20,24 NAS
14 ...if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
18 "...I will show you my faith by my works.”
20 ...are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
 

BrotherMike

Be Still and Know
Jan 8, 2018
1,617
1,671
113
Those who minutes before their last breath accept Jesus in their heart and asks for forgiveness of their sins will have eternal life. No works required. Jesus knows their heart. Lets make heaven crowded!
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,453
13,394
113
58
That's right.
Faith 'alone' (just knowing that the gospel is true) does not save anybody.
It's not enough to merely believe "mental assent" that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened." Even the demons believe that. (That is simply believing in our head). We must also trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (That is believing in our heart)

Only people who act on the knowledge God has given them will be saved.
Doing nothing with that knowledge and not applying it to your life is the same as casting it away in unbelief.
Either we trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation and we are saved or else we don't and we are not saved. As far as application goes beyond that, all genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. Those who produce no results at all (like the one talent person) were not truly converted.

The one talent person did nothing with what he was given and was lost.
The one talent person had been given a talent according to his ability and the opportunity to believe and bear fruit in accordance, but chose to reject it. The first two servants deposited their talents with the bankers (Matthew 25:27) but the third servant buried his talent in the ground (verse 25).

Faith without works can not save.
An empty profession of faith that remains alone (barren of works) cannot save because it's a dead faith and not authentic faith, yet we are still saved through faith and not by works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

James 2:14,18,20,24 NAS 14 ...if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

..I will show you my faith by my works.”
James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

..are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Now "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree) or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims (key word) he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. Once again, James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will be evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make Him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the "sense" in which God was "justified,." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony* :)
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,453
13,394
113
58
What God has shown us to be true about Jesus can be choked out by other things and can cause us to waver in our belief and trust in Christ. That's why our trust in God needs regular maintenance. It will die if we do not seek encouragement to keep believing.
"Regular maintenance" sounds like "type 2 works salvation." To temporarily waver or stumble in our belief (especially babes in Christ) is one thing, but to have belief permanently choked out and the end result is ongoing unbelief from that point on demonstrates that authentic and consummated belief in Christ unto salvation was never firmly rooted and established from the start.

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them.

Hebrews 3:12-13 NAS
Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened (to unbelief) by the deceitfulness of sin.
In verse 14, we read - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end."

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in their promised Messiah. And of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as born again Hebrew Christians who are partakers of Christ will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. What about those faltering Hebrews who depart from God, yet begin with confidence and profession of loyalty, but then later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

Which is why we should not lose confidence in what we have received and continue to believe.
Those whose faith has been firmly rooted and established will continue to believe. It's unfathomable to me to ever permanently stop believing. It's too engrained in me and I'm too convinced. Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

John 10:27 - My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

Philippians 1:6 - being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. (y)

Because He is faithful to keep His promise we should keep our confidence in Him and not put it in something else.

Hebrews 10:23 NAS
Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;
By ultimately putting out confidence in something else after initially (to some level of degree) putting out confidence in Him demonstrates that full confidence in Him (saving belief) was never consummated.

Throughout the book of Hebrews, we see genuine Christians and those who fall short of becoming a Christian. Hebrews 4:1-2 - "For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed do enter that rest..

Hebrews 10:39 - But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

In Hebrews 12:15, we read - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled. (NASB) The NIV reads - ..falls short of the grace of God.. and the ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God..
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,453
13,394
113
58
I think it is so funny :LOL: so many people on CC think they have salvation without having a glorified body; they will find out where they go without a glorified body. :eek:
Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been (past tense with ongoing present results) saved through faith.. Those who have been saved through faith will all one day receive a glorified body.

John 5:24 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
That's right.
Faith 'alone' (just knowing that the gospel is true) does not save anybody.

Only people who act on the knowledge God has given them will be saved.
Doing nothing with that knowledge and not applying it to your life is the same as casting it away in unbelief.
The one talent person did nothing with what he was given and was lost.
Faith without works can not save.

James 2:14,18,20,24 NAS
14 ...if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
18 "...I will show you my faith by my works.”
20 ...are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Faith is never alone

adead faith is lifeless, it is no faith at all

thats why it can not save

true faith is assured of God gift, assured of his promise, and assured of his truth, that’s why, when they are empowered by God, they trust him in life things,not just salvation, and the more their faith grows in life things, the more they mature and the more they do.


works do not gain, maintain or assure salvation.

they are a RESULT or natural byproduct of salvation!
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
We respond to God’s call by the faith that He begins in us, correct? And then that call is irrevocable because He is the one who completes the work he began in us, correct?
Amen, he who began a good work will complete it. For these workers for to be correct. The word would have to say MIGHT complete. which is not found in scripture. And that is the basis of our faith. ThatbGod will never fail us

with out that assurance, we have no faith period.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Me too.
I know because I am trusting in Christ's ministry in heaven to intercede on my behalf. God said if I do that I am saved by that ministry.
And my life shows that I am trusting in Christ's ministry for salvation. I'm growing up into the image and likeness of my Father in heaven.



Yes, past and present.
As long as you are trusting in Christ's sacrifice and ministry in heaven you are saved and will remain saved.
I do not think You don’t know , you think you know, and your Hope relays on your continued faith, not gods continued work to keep you in faith.

ie, self
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
What God has shown us to be true about Jesus can be choked out by other things and can cause us to waver in our belief and trust in Christ. That's why our trust in God needs regular maintenance. It will die if we do not seek encouragement to keep believing.

Hebrews 3:12-13 NAS
Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened (to unbelief) by the deceitfulness of sin.



Which is why we should not lose confidence in what we have received and continue to believe.

Because He is faithful to keep His promise we should keep our confidence in Him and not put it in something else.

Hebrews 10:23 NAS
Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;
John said he wrote things so we can KNOW WE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and by this (knowledge) continue to believe

our faith in Christ is kept by the KNOWLEDGE weHAVE eternal life

so if you do not think your life is secure in Christ, your hope will be accomplished, your eternity is assured no matter what.

you have no basis of faith, period

you are asking people to take the HOPE of our calling, and put it on the back shelf, and go work, because our eternity is not assured it is conditional on what we do.

thats legalism my friend
 
Nov 24, 2019
395
196
43
Virginia
www.youtube.com
It does not get any plainer..........Our righteous works have ZERO to do with Salvation!

English Standard Version
he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Berean Study Bible
He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

Berean Literal Bible
He saved us, not by works in righteousness that we did, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

New American Standard Bible
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

King James Bible
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
True!! Amen. That's how we get in the door and it all starts. Not by a single good thing we had done. Since all Scripture is our source and I'm certain none of you would wish to go against God, I'm sure you accept all of His council and wish to make none of it void.

Why would it be that each of the 4 Gospels state that Jesus came for this purpose: to baptize us with the Holy Spirit? As students of Scripture, you know that what happened to Israel is a warning to us in the New Covenant, 1 Cor.10. Israel had a beautiful, powerful deliverance from Egypt, not by works they had done. Christ is our Passover. Baptism now saves us, it is written. They were baptized into "Moses", not only in the sea, but also in the cloud.

The Rock that accompanied them was Christ, Scripture tells us. Ex. 23:20-26 is a beautiful picture of Him, who has God's Name in Him. He was in the cloud! How were they then to enter the Promised Land? By following the Lord their God wholeheartedly. The New Testament states it in these beautiful ways: "The sons of God are those who are being led by the Spirit of God", "He is Head over all things to the church, which is His body", "In Him we live and move and have our being", "live by the Spirit and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature." We are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit if the Spirit of God lives in us.

Jesus Christ is the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. That's why He bore our sins in His body on the tree so that we would be dead to sins. From there we get a new nature, the new man we are told to put on. Then we have the personal guide, God's own Spirit. And we are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Jesus didn't say, "Go in to all the world and make Christians." He said make disciples. Huge difference. No one can be a disciple of Jesus Christ who does not lay down his own life, denying his soul: what he wants, thinks and feels. Part of holiness is being set apart to God. Our bodies were purchased so that we would lay them on His altar. "I have come to do Thy will, O God." Jesus is the pattern son for us. If we abide in Him - which Jesus did not make optional - we will walk as He walked, 1 John 2:6. He did nothing on His own initiative. He only did what He saw the Father doing.

"Take My yoke up you." "My sheep hear My voice, I know them and they follow Me." That doesn't mean My sheep read the Bible. Paul said, "If by any means I may attain to the resurrection from the dead" after he had walked with Jesus for 20 years. He compared the life of faith to a distance race. He said he beat his own body making it his slave so that he would not be disqualified for the prize.

Circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not the letter, is part of our covenant with Him. We cannot practice the acts of the sinful nature and inherit the Kingdom of God. But that's just the death part of the Gospel. The new life we come into is the Sabbath rest for the people of God where we don't go our own way, do as we please or speak our own words. We live by Him just as He lived by the Father, John 6. Christ in all and Christ is all.

I have so much more I could write from the Word of God. But I'm sure you would seek to negate none of these things by saying, "Not by works." I'm sure there is no warning from the heavenly Father to us you would wish to ignore. Behold His kindness and severity. My children know that I am not only kindness. My how it helps their works, i.e. behavior. Without holiness, none of us will see the Lord.

"Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing and I will receive you. I will be a Father to you and you will be my sons and daughters," says the Lord Almighty. Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God."

2 Corinthians 11:3.4. A different gospel, Jesus and spirit. Paul's fear in the 1st century. You have wearied the Lord with your words by saying, "All who do evil are good in the eyes of the Lord." There is no fear of God before their eyes through man made religion and showing partiality with God' Word. We'll take this part and this portion, but not that or that, or the other part. God pronounces a curse on such endeavors.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
2,055
1,524
113
what a mistake they did to try to play games with america in pearl harbor.
 
Oct 24, 2019
494
40
28
what a mistake they did to try to play games with america in pearl harbor.
The 1941 Peal Harbor incident is an inside job.

Too many soldiers have chosen to shed their blood for the globalist bankers; for many, it was a fatal mistake. :(
 
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
Those who minutes before their last breath accept Jesus in their heart and asks for forgiveness of their sins will have eternal life. No works required. Jesus knows their heart. Lets make heaven crowded!
I think everybody knows that. Justification is by faith apart from the merit of works.
The difference of opinion comes in after that.

For those of us who have lived longer than just a few minutes after being justified, we have the obligation, by virtue of possessing saving faith, to not live according to the flesh.

Romans 8:12 NAS
12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh


People justified by faith apart from works must then be justified as having the righteousness of God by what they do.

James 2:18,20,24,14 NAS
18 "...show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless (unable to save, see vs.14)?
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?


Staying in your old life of sin is, ultimately, rejecting the faith that justified you. You can't remain justified by faith if you reject the faith that justified you. You reject it by not living in it and putting it to work. The righteous live by faith to the preserving of the soul:

Hebrews 10:38-39
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH;
AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.


Continuing in faith TO THE PRESERVING OF THE SOUL. That's what we are to do. You will not be saved if you do not do that, but rather destroyed. So stay among those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
That's right.
Faith 'alone' (just knowing that the gospel is true) does not save anybody.

Only people who act on the knowledge God has given them will be saved.
Doing nothing with that knowledge and not applying it to your life is the same as casting it away in unbelief.
The one talent person did nothing with what he was given and was lost.
Faith without works can not save.

James 2:14,18,20,24 NAS
14 ...if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
18 "...I will show you my faith by my works.”
20 ...are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Read the entire book and you will see that the faith being addressed is not "saving faith" and there the word "save" is not in reference to being born again or the spiritual rebirth.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
The faith that is 'alone' (absent of works) is not the faith that justifies all by itself.
See here ... you are contradicting yourself....

First....Yes salvation is a free gift not based upon any works

Second... Oh but if the faith does not have works then it does not justify

A feeble attempt to reconcile scripture but it is actually a complete contradiction.
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
3,165
3,665
113
I think it is so funny :LOL: so many people on CC think they have salvation without having a glorified body; they will find out where they go without a glorified body. :eek:
I would say your laughter exemplifies a demonic nature but since that would get me in trouble with the moderators I won’t say it.