Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree. Why some come and some don’t. It’s a mystery to me. I know the ones who come do not come because they are better or wiser. In fact,God chooses the weak and foolish and jacked up people in the world

I think that’s part of the mystery. God chose to save through a gospel that the wise in human wisdom, the self righteous, the mighty find foolish, but draws those of us who have reached the end of ourselves, who have despaired of our own unrighteousness, who have no strength, and are under the weight of the sentence of death, brought to the realization that we are poor, miserable, naked and blind, we are drawn by the Father and raised by the Spirit through the redemption of the Son.

O The depths of the riches of the Wisdom of God

Lets not forget romans 1,

although they knew God.......

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Good question, but I do not think he will answer, There has been 3 or 4 that would apply to, with the same works righteousness theology, the same Anti-OSAS agenda, and the same False Anti-Calvinism lies, ETC. I know I am not a Calvinist, but it bugs me that they think they have to tell lies about their beliefs, thinking that it is justified just to make them look bad. Actually I only believe in Three of the Five Points of Calvinism, so they disown me, and so the Armenians. I like it that way.

I am with ya.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If he said we earn our salvation, that is serious error. If he said we can ever be worthy of salvation that is very serious.
I didn’t read anything like that, but like I said, I haven’t read all of his posts

He said the prodigal son was in hell until he repented and came back.if he died while he was in hell, he lost his salvation.

This is something recent you can see him say

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If we believe OSAS then we have to stand by it... that is my view..... not personal.

I hate the term osas, it is calvinist supposedly, and causes a lot of backlash.

i prefer eternal security in Christ

 

[dcontroversal]

I don’t think his views are that far removed from John and Charles Wesley. This issue of eternal security is so divisive, but I believe there are genuine Christians on both sides. This will probably lead to my discredit among many, but that is what I believe

My problem with this is simple....there is ONE gospel that saves....NOT TWO OR MORE....when ONE believes into a "gospel" that states it begins with faith and then must be maintained by man, topped off by works, finished by works or what we do, it is a gospel that has NO POWER TO SAVE A MAN.....many need to get through their head that NO ONE IS SAVED when they believe they MUST FINISH IT OR MAINTAIN it themselves.....Galatians makes this crystal clear.....FAITH PLUS = CORRUPTED GOSPEL, no power, double cursed.....the road to "Christian" hell Is paved with the MANY that believe they HELP BY WORKS and or SELF MAINTAINED FAITH......

 

[dcontroversal]

N

I have a higher view of him, brother. From reading his posts, he seems to genuinely trust and love the Lord. He believes that we are saved by Grace and kept by the power of God through faith. That is enough for me to call him “brother”

No, he does not and if you believe that, you have not read what he states clearly....HE states clearly that HE MUST MAINTAIN or he loses salvation...Both false......!

 

[dcontroversal]

Hahahaha... reading Ralph' old posts he often stated "That is right"

I knew that would crop up in your written expression again.

It is obvious that it is him....same drivel, same sayings, same mannerisms and he has not openly denied it even though numerous people have asked or stated it!

 

[dcontroversal]

I hate the term osas, it is calvinist supposedly, and causes a lot of backlash.

i prefer eternal security in Christ

Both equal the same truth and it does not bother me that others (WORKERS FOR AND SALVATION LOSERS) mouth OSAS......

 

[dcontroversal]

He does not believe this

i have heard his false teachings for multiple years now.

he is not my brother

Amen.....he does not believe the correct message and peddles that which is false.....a double cursed gospel of a self maintained salvation!

 

[dcontroversal]

God says through Isaiah, blind them, them, so that they will not turn, and be healed. Jesus says, therefore they could not believe.
there's a purposeful action here with an intended result, which i found utterly astounding!! it's not just happenstance, like, yeah, some will probably harden, some will probably soften, let's see how it shakes out -- no, He intentionally hardens in order to exclude those under His judgement. God knows what He does, and He does all He intends.

Amen...have not I made the wicked for the day of evil......!

 

[dcontroversal]

Lets not forget romans 1,

although they knew God.......

All know -->Creation testifies day and night with no language barriers, also...the invisible testifies as well......

 

[eternally-gratefull]

All know -->Creation testifies day and night with no language barriers, also...the invisible testifies as well......

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, evenHis eternal power and [g]Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,

it’s quite clear

 

[PS]

Yep it is worse

you had salvation in your hands, and in the end, you failed to take it and make it yours. it will be far worse for you than those who outright reject God.

there is no argument

God does not fail, you claim he can, your faith is in yourself not God, its simple I do not see why you refuse to see this

God does not fail, but we do. Get that into your head. Something else, it is you who is denying God's word, in other words you are making God a liar, and so denying the very God. I reckon anyone who does that, is in big, big trouble from which there is no coming back. Do you understand!

 

[Rosemaryx]

God does not fail, but we do. Get that into your head. Something else, it is you who is denying God's word, in other words you are making God a liar, and so denying the very God. I reckon anyone who does that, is in big, big trouble from which there is no coming back. Do you understand!

We all fail God every single day , in thought or deed , why do you think He gives us grace and mercy new every morning?
Great is His faithfulness...

We have a High priest who stands before God , an advocate who keeps us righteous because we are hidden in Him , God knows we are but dust , He knows we fail Him , Luke 6:20 Bless are those who are poor in spirit , those of us who stand before God know we have nothing to give , we know we are bankrupt , we can bring nothing before God , only our wretched selves ...

Gods beautiful grace is enough for us , we are in Christ , Christ is in heaven , we are written on the psalm of His hands , we are not forsaken , we are His and He is ours , and anyone who can not grasp these truths needs to come before the LORD and be like the tax collector who beat his chest...

You people who believe we can lose our Salvation is putting your own mistrust on others , and we believe all the words of our LORD put our trust in Him daily , all the glory to God Amen...\/...

 

[Judges1318]

We have a High priest who stands before God , an advocate who keeps us righteous...
...
... we believe all the words of our LORD put our trust in Him daily , all the glory to God Amen...\/...

Keep believing all his words and trust in him daily, and Christ will keep you righteous before the Father. If you stop believing and trusting, and you refuse to come back, you will no longer have the intercessory ministry of Christ operating on your behalf in heaven to keep you righteous before God because that ministry is applied to you through faith.

 

[Rosemaryx]

Keep believing all his words and trust in him daily, and Christ will keep you righteous before the Father. If you stop believing and trusting, and you refuse to come back, you will no longer have the intercessory ministry of Christ operating on your behalf in heaven to keep you righteous before God because that ministry is applied to you through faith.

Thank God He keeps me daily , I thank God that He is the one who provides for me , including my faith , He has called me to live for His Sons namesake , not called me to disregard me when I fail Him , but to correct me and keep me walking towards Him...

You are mixing believers with non believers ...

 

[mailmandan]

But why does the emboldened red part mean that they could only have ever been fake believers all along and could not have ever been genuine believers?

I already thoroughly explained in post #116,551 why those who fell away were never genuine believers. Once again, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see in scripture where good fruit is a sign of true spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers. (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) In Matthew 7:15, we read - Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Did Jesus mention anything about these wolves in sheep's clothing previously being sheep? NO. Neither did the writer of Hebrews mention the land that bears thorns and thistles previously bearing vegetation or useful fruit. Vegetation and useful fruit is being contrasted with thorns and thistles. It's one or the other.

Aren't you projecting a once saved always saved bias onto the passage which causes you to see 'unfruitful' as meaning 'never, ever truly believed'?

It's you who is projecting NOSAS bias onto the passage. Unfruitful simply means unfruitful. There is no indication here that it means was once fruitful. That's your bias.

And you must see, by your own argument using the Hebrews 6 passage, that the Hebrews ARE saved. The warnings we've been discussing are being given to genuinely saved people, not possibly unsaved people who think they're saved and only have a superficial association with God's genuinely saved people and the things of God.

The Hebrews that bear useful fruit and do not fall away ARE saved. The Hebrews that bear thorns and thistles and fall away are NOT saved.

Hebrews 6:9-12 NAS
9But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation (your fruitfulness), though we are speaking in this way (that barren fields get burned up in the end). 10For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. 11And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

He plainly says he is convinced they are not fields that will get burned up in the end, because they are fruitful, having genuine work and love in the name of God for the saints which God will not unjustly forget. That's talking about genuinely saved people, not potentially fake people.

Still, genuinely saved people are contrasted with those who are not saved based on the land that bears vegetation/useful fruit or thorns and thistles, in which the latter does not accompany salvation.

And he tells these genuinely saved people to show that same diligence of faith and patience (notice he didn't say 'works') through which the promises are inherited. Without which (faith and the perseverance of faith) you can not inherit the promises, but instead will be burned up. So the warnings to not fall away from that believing are in fact being delivered to actual saved people, not fake believers.

Just as in Hebrews 3:14, those who hold their confidence steadfast to the end (persevere) demonstrate that they have become partakers of Christ. Perseverance is proof of genuine conversion. Although the letter of Hebrews is written to believers, not everyone in a group of professing believers is a genuine believer, hence the warning. It's not hard to find "nominal" Christians mixed in with genuine Christians in various churches and even on multiple Christian forums, including Christian Chat.

And as to these warnings addressing the hypothetical case in which it is impossible that a true believer not persevere in faith to the end, they're just too pointed and serious for them to be about the hypothetical case of a genuine believer not believing and persevering in faith anymore.

You are entitled to your opinion, yet there are still some believers who hold to the hypothetical view. Self preservationists seem to love the idea that although Jesus "initially" saved them, it's a good thing they ultimately "pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps" and "kept themselves saved." Such people are boasting at the back door.

Yes, the warning will always work to keep the true believer close to God in faith and works of faith who wants to stay close to God, but what about the believer who doesn't want to anymore? That's not a hypothetical scenario. It happens. We can't just write off every 'believer' who quits on Christ as having never really been saved. That scenario is addressed to often and too seriously in scripture for it to be merely hypothetical. And experience shows it does happen.

Again, perseverance is proof of genuine conversion. Quitting on Christ demonstrates that faith was never firmly rooted and established from the start. His sheep hear His voice, follow Him and He gives them eternal life and they shall never perish or be snatched from His hand. (John 10:27-28) I find it interesting that EVERYONE I have ever talked with who claims to have previously been a Christian, but is no longer a Christian, could not give me a clear, concise answer to how they became a Christian in the first place. When I asked such people what they previously believed that caused them to become a Christian, they could not give me a concise answer to what it means to believe the gospel, which is a red flag for me.

 

[mailmandan]

And because Hebrews 3:14 does refer to 'partakers of Christ', there's no reason the author in this same letter to these same people doesn't mean that, too, when he refers to being 'partakers of the Holy Spirit' in Hebrews 6:4. Even the Greek verb rendered 'made/become' is the same in both passages:

"have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit" Hebrews 6:4 NAS

"have become partakers of Christ" - Hebrews 3:14 NAS

It is the Holy Spirit that makes us partakers of Christ and his divine nature. It's referring to the same thing.

"His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature" - 2 Peter 1:4

By definition, that is a reference to a saved person--a person who has Christ in them by the Holy Spirit.

On the surface, that may sound like a good argument, but it's inconclusive. I already thoroughly explained why 'partakers of the Holy Spirit' may refer to a less than saving association or participation in post #116,551. Yet partakers of Christ and of the divine nature absolutely refers to a saved person. I also explained why 'taste' is not the same as 'drink' (Matthew 27:34) and we drink (and not simply taste) into one Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13).

 

[Tinkerbell725]

Galatians 3:11‭-‬14 KJV


But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


Deuteronomy 21:23 KJV

His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God) that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

 

[mailmandan]

That's right. You can not come back after you lose your salvation. That would put Christ to open shame and God won't allow that. It's not even a matter of the person won't want to come back. God simply does not allow Christ to be put to open shame that way.

The writer of Hebrews did not use the words, "lose your salvation" and I've heard numerous people who believe salvation can be lost claim you can get it back again. Maybe they believe it depends on the circumstances on how one lost it in the first place.

Ultimately, yes, only God knows.
But the scriptures do give us the right to discern from people's lives if they should be considered a believer or not. And it gives us that right and responsibility in order to protect us from false brethren and their doctrines. But, actually, it is Calvin's doctrine who says we can know for certain if a person is unsaved (and was never saved to begin with) by if they leave or not.

Ultimately, we cannot infallibly judge everyone's heart, yet certain people make it pretty obvious they trust in works for salvation, which is a strong indication to me that such a person is not a genuine believer. I'm not really too concerned about that Calvin taught because I'm not a 5 point Calvinist. I'm more concerned with properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.

Me? I just go by what the Bible says: the person who believes is saved. The person who doesn't believe is not saved.

Amen! (John 3:18)

And that's why we should keep believing. Simple. There is no need to go beyond this simple Biblical truth.

You make "keep believing" sound like a difficult burden. I've been a believer for over 20 years now and never once struggled with continuing to believe. If it was not for the Lord, I would have never come to believe in the first place or would continue to believe. I believe in God's preservation (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1) and not man's preservation.

We have to stop being led into meaningless rabbit trails by church theologians needlessly over thinking the scriptures and the things of God. Calvinism and the various offshoots and varieties of his doctrines are in my opinion the epitome of man's constant over thinking of the scriptures. Over thinking anything usually destroys the meaning and intent of that which you are over thinking and leads you away from the truth and practicality you are seeking. ...and that about sums it up for our lifeless evangelical church today.

Lifeless evangelical church today? So which church is full of life in your opinion? Only churches that agree with you?

They knew Judas was stealing out of the money bag.

5Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? 6This he (Judas) said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. - John 12:5-6 KJV

Judas' true colors were obvious. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

There is, but instead of trying to figure out if they were ever really saved to begin with or not, just understand that they are not saved now, because they do not believe now. And the warning to them is to come back to faith while it's still possible (like it was still possible for the Galatians). Because after a while of resisting God's offer to come back God will honor the decision to no longer believe and will shut the exbeliever out forever. After which there is zero opportunity to come back, even if they seek it with tears.

You are a one string banjo: "Lose salvation" - plink, plink.

I'm not trying to discourage any exbeliever who is at the point of tears right now and wants to come back to Christ. I think they should try to come back.

I experienced nothing but doubt, along with fear and bondage to IN-security when I subscribed to NOSAS while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago.

One thing I will agree with you about is we are not fit to pronounce finality over anyone's position with God. Their situation is particular to them and them alone and they must work it out between themselves and God. We just know that the person who does not believe today is not saved today. That is the truth in which there should be no dispute whatsoever. Only believers are saved.

Bottom line: ONLY believers are saved.