Not By Works

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J

Judges1318

Banned
#117,401
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
#117,401
Discern said:
We're (you and I) are talking in circles.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure that you fully agree that you must continue to trust Jesus to the end to be saved when he returns, and that trusting is our responsibility (with God's help of course).

And for those who are sure all believers WILL continue to trust, the Galatians, the Corinthians, and the Hebrews did not and had to be exhorted by Paul to get back in the race. And he warned them what would happen if they didn't.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#117,403
#117,403
Discern said:
I quoted Jacob Prasch as saying that "continuance in the faith is not trusting in our ability to hold on, but it is trusting in Christ's ability to hold on to us". And then she asked "for salvation or sanctification?"

The question does not make sense to me. It's similar to saying "do we love Jesus for salvation or sanctification?" which is nonsensical.
Click to expand...

"continuance in faith" ... translation........ "perseverance in the faith".... i.e. "if you do not preserver" this means you were never saved to begin with.

Once again back to this Calvinistic./Lordship salvation theme that a Christian WILL prove their salvation or else they were never saved.


So yes the question is valid... Jesus saves us period. Is that salvation secure in Him absolutely!!

We are positionally sanctified absolutely.

However, not everyone lives out that sanctification as we are exhorted to do.
As well, it causes people to look to themselves for proof of their salvation.

And what I really find distasteful about this teaching is that it contradicts scripture that salvation is a free gift ...no strings attached.

Romans 5:15-18:

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#117,404
#117,404
Judges1318 said:
I'm not sure that you fully agree that you must continue to trust Jesus to the end to be saved when he returns, and that trusting is our responsibility (with God's help of course).

And for those who are sure all believers WILL continue to trust, the Galatians, the Corinthians, and the Hebrews did not and had to be exhorted by Paul to get back in the race. And he warned them what would happen if they didn't.
Click to expand...
I am pretty sure he does not... thankfully!!
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#117,405
#117,405
Discern said:
Isn't it amazing that two people think I am agreeing with this guy Ralph, whoever that is? What's the deal with that? :unsure:
Click to expand...
Go back and read the thread you will find it very enlightening.

You will notice the same argument and a little catch phrase "That's right"
 
OneOfHis

OneOfHis

Well-known member
#117,406
Mar 24, 2019
1,431
2,208
113
#117,406
Discern said:
It's funny that ONLY you and Eleventh see that. No one else does that I can see. Everyone else seems to recognize my posts as OSAS in perspective. (Mailmandan, Eternally Grateful, One of His, Bill G) etc.

I wonder why you think the post that Eleventh Hour replied to supports whoever Ralph is, (I know from your past posts, he apparently believes in NOSAS. ) SO where did I agree with that?
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eh?

I am not taking any sides in this...

I haven't read much from you but I do make a point to not encourage those who are pushing dangerous beliefs outside of and conflicting with what is gospel....


If you believe in eternal security that is wonderful. It is true.


I did find a question you asked really interesting yesterday...

I also think we all have our own way of helping sapplings or the blind....

Unlike some I'd go as far to say there probably are those who lack knowledge, trust in Christ but wrongfully believe they could end up in hell through the loss of "faith" in ignorance. Not understanding the differences in applications of the word.


That being said

there are many who come here year after year... name after name... ban after ban...

who use false doctrine, foul tactics and manipulation, guilt trips and the twisting of words... false praise... so many dishonest things to try and push a point...


Brother @dcontroversal has spent more time trying to not only show these people and others who see whats being said, what is true.. but also spent more time being a target for their foul tactics....


If you were to be encouraging one of these, from his perspective


couldnt you see how as a brother he would feel a little worried?
 
D

Discern

Banned
#117,407
Dec 6, 2019
1,206
691
113
#117,407
EleventhHour said:
"continuance in faith" ... translation........ "perseverance in the faith".... i.e. "if you do not preserver" this means you were never saved to begin with.

Once again back to this Calvinistic./Lordship salvation theme that a Christian WILL prove their salvation or else they were never saved.


So yes the question is valid... Jesus saves us period. Is that salvation secure in Him absolutely!!

We are positionally sanctified absolutely.

However, not everyone lives out that sanctification as we are exhorted to do.
As well, it causes people to look to themselves for proof of their salvation.

And what I really find distasteful about this teaching is that it contradicts scripture that salvation is a free gift ...no strings attached.

Romans 5:15-18:

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Click to expand...
I believe Jesus holds on to us. Period. End of story🙂
 
D

Discern

Banned
#117,408
Dec 6, 2019
1,206
691
113
#117,408
OneOfHis said:
eh?

I am not taking any sides in this...

I haven't read much from you but I do make a point to not encourage those who are pushing dangerous beliefs outside of and conflicting with what is gospel....


If you believe in eternal security that is wonderful. It is true.


I did find a question you asked really interesting yesterday...

I also think we all have our own way of helping sapplings or the blind....

Unlike some I'd go as far to say there probably are those who lack knowledge, trust in Christ but wrongfully believe they could end up in hell through the loss of "faith" in ignorance. Not understanding the differences in applications of the word.


That being said

there are many who come here year after year... name after name... ban after ban...

who use false doctrine, foul tactics and manipulation, guilt trips and the twisting of words... false praise... so many dishonest things to try and push a point...


Brother @dcontroversal has spent more time trying to not only show these people and others who see what is true.. but also being a target for their foul tactics....


If you were to be encouraging one of these, from his perspective


couldnt you see how as a brother he would feel a little worried?
Click to expand...
my replies to Judges show I am not encouraging what he is saying. Disagreeing with someone in a civil manner is not encouraging a person. Judges knows I disagree with him.

I believe Jesus holds on to us.
 
OneOfHis

OneOfHis

Well-known member
#117,410
Mar 24, 2019
1,431
2,208
113
#117,410
Discern said:
my replies to Judges show I am not encouraging what he is saying. Disagreeing with someone in a civil manner is not encouraging a person. Judges knows I disagree with him.
Click to expand...
fair enough
i didnt read what was said and ill take your word for it


maybe i should catch up a bit... its just hard these days

(i just happen to know brother dcon very well and see how often his actions or words with good intentions are twisted against him because he is a bit rough around the edges or "blunt")
 
D

Discern

Banned
#117,411
Dec 6, 2019
1,206
691
113
#117,411
There is a thread placed by one of the moderators called please remember to be civil. And I am called to the carpet for disagreeing with a person in a civil manner.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#117,412
#117,412
Discern said:
The question is entirely irrelevant to the quote I gave. The quote is about trusting Jesus to hold on to us, which is neither a barter we trade to God in exchange for sanctification, nor is it a work that we need to do to remain saved. It is a response to God's Grace, just as loving God is a response to God's grace.
Click to expand...
Right a response to God's grace.... we need to respond... Jesus clearly tells us to abide, we are exhorted to walk in the Spirit.

Many cannot handle the fact that a believer can fall from grace and walk in the flesh.... hence the development of the lordship salvation which actually is completely detrimental to walking by the Spirit and abiding because it puts focus on oneself and one's growth rather than Jesus as the source of growth.

God pours out His Grace to those who take a stand where He takes a stand... we need to be persuaded that He is able conform us to His image as well allow Him to work in our lives.... yielding to Him is not automatic.
 
OneOfHis

OneOfHis

Well-known member
#117,413
Mar 24, 2019
1,431
2,208
113
#117,413
EleventhHour said:
"continuance in faith" ... translation........ "perseverance in the faith".... i.e. "if you do not preserver" this means you were never saved to begin with.

Once again back to this Calvinistic./Lordship salvation theme that a Christian WILL prove their salvation or else they were never saved.


So yes the question is valid... Jesus saves us period. Is that salvation secure in Him absolutely!!

We are positionally sanctified absolutely.

However, not everyone lives out that sanctification as we are exhorted to do.
As well, it causes people to look to themselves for proof of their salvation.

And what I really find distasteful about this teaching is that it contradicts scripture that salvation is a free gift ...no strings attached.

Romans 5:15-18:

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Click to expand...
agreed 100%

discern agrees with this too

no?
 
D

Discern

Banned
#117,414
Dec 6, 2019
1,206
691
113
#117,414
OneOfHis said:
fair enough
i didnt read what was said and ill take your word for it


maybe i should catch up a bit... its just hard these days

(i just happen to know brother dcon very well and see how often his actions or words with good intentions are twisted against him because he is a bit rough around the edges or "blunt")
Click to expand...
I know his intentions are good. I just think he hasn’t read all my posts.
 
D

Discern

Banned
#117,417
Dec 6, 2019
1,206
691
113
#117,417
EleventhHour said:
Right a response to God's grace.... we need to respond... Jesus clearly tells us to abide, we are exhorted to walk in the Spirit.

Many cannot handle the fact that a believer can fall from grace and walk in the flesh.... hence the development of the lordship salvation which actually is completely detrimental to walking by the Spirit and abiding because it puts focus on oneself and one's growth rather than Jesus as the source of growth.

God pours out His Grace to those who take a stand where He takes a stand... we need to be persuaded that He is able conform us to His image as well allow Him to work in our lives.... yielding to Him is not automatic.
Click to expand...
I have already shared my experience of falling and walking in the flesh with eternally grateful, so you can rest assured that I don’t have a problem handling that possibility🙂

But we can encourage one another by reminding one another that “He is able to keep you from falling”, right?
 
D

Discern

Banned
#117,418
Dec 6, 2019
1,206
691
113
#117,418
OneOfHis said:
agreed 100%

discern agrees with this too

no?
Click to expand...
I agree with her assertions on salvation. I don’t use terms like Lordship salvation, and I don’t know who she is talking about when she says “prove your salvation”
 
D

Discern

Banned
#117,419
Dec 6, 2019
1,206
691
113
#117,419
EleventhHour said:
"continuance in faith" ... translation........ "perseverance in the faith".... i.e. "if you do not preserver" this means you were never saved to begin with.

Once again back to this Calvinistic./Lordship salvation theme that a Christian WILL prove their salvation or else they were never saved.


So yes the question is valid... Jesus saves us period. Is that salvation secure in Him absolutely!!

We are positionally sanctified absolutely.

However, not everyone lives out that sanctification as we are exhorted to do.
As well, it causes people to look to themselves for proof of their salvation.

And what I really find distasteful about this teaching is that it contradicts scripture that salvation is a free gift ...no strings attached.

Romans 5:15-18:

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Click to expand...
I’ve never heard anyone say that we have to prove our salvation. I would never say that personally.
 
OneOfHis

OneOfHis

Well-known member
#117,420
Mar 24, 2019
1,431
2,208
113
#117,420
Discern said:
I have already shared my experience of falling and walking in the flesh with eternally grateful, so you can rest assured that I don’t have a problem handling that possibility🙂

But we can encourage one another by reminding one another that “He is able to keep you from falling”, right?
Click to expand...
Amen


we OUGHT to

and we OUGHT to accept this reproof
and depending on how severe this "falling" is


if our brother/sister is not even convicted by us or our local church or those we involve in this... i think in some cases we then should actually not fellowship with them as friends anymore until they have been moved by the Holy Spirit

not every slip up requres us to lecture someone or ever to act as if we are better... but we are witnesses of Gods love and that should include all its aspects
 
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