Not By Works

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EleventhHour

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Nov 11, 2019
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I have already shared my experience of falling and walking in the flesh with eternally grateful, so you can rest assured that I don’t have a problem handling that possibility🙂

But we can encourage one another by reminding one another that “He is able to keep you from falling”, right?
And there is not guarantee will walk in the Spirit, and if we die in that state..... we are still saved.

And not "walking in the Spirit" does not always mean a life of rampant sin ... it can simply be not living within the riches of God's grace.... and being good by one's one effort... finishing in the flesh what was started in the Spirit.
 

OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
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I agree with her assertions on salvation. I don’t use terms like Lordship salvation, and I don’t know who she is talking about when she says “prove your salvation”
im not 100% familiar with all the terms or denominations myself
i think
the reason people use them usually is because it can really speed up debate or discussion of someone holds to one...

but i agree that God needs no proof

He knows who Hes started in and will complete

He knows who is covered by the blood of Jesus too
 
Dec 6, 2019
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And there is not guarantee will walk in the Spirit, and if we die in that state..... we are still saved.

And not "walking in the Spirit" does not always mean a life of rampant sin ... it can simply be not living within the riches of God's grace.... and being good by one's one effort... finishing in the flesh what was started in the Spirit.
There is a difference between walking in the flesh and being in the flesh.
(Romans 8:9)
 
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i have heard people say that in this thread😅
many times....


never you of course

but others....
Internet theologians say all kinds of things. I have never heard an evangelical Bible teacher use those words. Doesn’t mean none have. I just have not come across any
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
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I agree with her assertions on salvation. I don’t use terms like Lordship salvation, and I don’t know who she is talking about when she says “prove your salvation”
I am speaking in general... and I believe that Jacob Prasch is of that mindset.

And going back to Hebrews 3:16 which is not a descriptive passage of the perseverance of the saints but rather once again an exhortation.

Hebrews 3:1-6 between Christ and believers is not salvation from hell but being a faithful vessel for God in each person’s sphere of priestly service and ministry.

Just as Christ has been faithful as our High Priest in service where the Father placed Him, even so Christians must also persevere in faithfulness in our sphere of service as believers.
 

EleventhHour

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Nov 11, 2019
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Trust me, this slave of Jesus Christ - my Lord and Savior - would NEVER laugh at the Gospel.

You mean you really don’t see what I’m laughing at??

Yes, it seems you are more than laughing at the Gospel, I have read your posts on CC... you actually fully deny the Gospel ... the Good News of Jesus Christ Lord and Saviour.

You have turned Him, Jesus Christ .... nothing more than a good role model... in final analysis anyone who denies eternal security has done this very thing.

I would really like you to come to this thread and actually respond to @dcontroversal with an argument based on scripture... but I doubt you will, because you know that scripture in no way supports your "Jesus is my role model of good works for salvation" doctrine.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
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Trust me, this slave of Jesus Christ - my Lord and Savior - would NEVER laugh at the Gospel.

You mean you really don’t see what I’m laughing at??
"slave of Jesus Christ" .....translation >>> I am earning my salvation

"my Lord and Saviour" .... translation>>> only if and while I earn my salvation


Jesus sets the terms for Himself as who names Him as Lord and Saviour... and Paul makes it very clear in his letters.

Those that do the will of the Father... is that working for salvation... Absolutely NOT

The will of the Father in terms of entering Jesus’ kingdom is that we believe in/on His Son

And how do we believe by our works... Absolutely NOT .... Paul tells us clearly...

King James Bible
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 4:5
 

EleventhHour

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Nov 11, 2019
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I have read what you have written......the gospel you follow and peddle is not found in scripture....Make no mistake what you peddle is your own carnival cruise false gospel........and I know fully well what you are laughing at.....!!
As false a Gospel as they come.

The worst because they use the words of the scripture as a front .... I cannot even begin to express how much I loathe that false Gospel....best I stop there.
 
Dec 6, 2019
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I am speaking in general... and I believe that Jacob Prasch is of that mindset.

And going back to Hebrews 3:16 which is not a descriptive passage of the perseverance of the saints but rather once again an exhortation.

Hebrews 3:1-6 between Christ and believers is not salvation from hell but being a faithful vessel for God in each person’s sphere of priestly service and ministry.

Just as Christ has been faithful as our High Priest in service where the Father placed Him, even so Christians must also persevere in faithfulness in our sphere of service as believers.
Hebrews 3:16? I think you mean Hebrews 3:14, right?

Hebrews 3;16 is talking about Israelites who failed to enter the rest
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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Well lets look at it:

Hebrews 10v28-31
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” [g]says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Now I realise that this passage doesn't fit your doctrine. That's because your doctrine is wrong.

But don't come and change the plain meaning of this. That would just be disingenuous.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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Loss of salvation is not in view in verse 28-29.
Well lets look at it:

Hebrews 10v28-31
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” [g]says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Now I realise that this passage doesn't fit your doctrine. That's because your doctrine is wrong.

But don't come and change the plain meaning of this. That would just be disingenuous.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
7,458
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Hebrews 3:16? I think you mean Hebrews 3:14, right?

Hebrews 3;16 is talking about Israelites who failed to enter the rest
sorry a typo there... Yes it was Hebrews 3:6 you stated demonstrated perseverance correct?
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
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Well lets look at it:

Hebrews 10v28-31
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” [g]says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Now I realise that this passage doesn't fit your doctrine. That's because your doctrine is wrong.

But don't come and change the plain meaning of this. That would just be disingenuous.
I think the argument they use here is sanctified does not really mean a saved person. They pick out a definition and usage of sanctified (from Strong's concordance, I guess) that protects their doctrinal presupposition, even though the context plainly defines the meaning and definition of sanctified being used. Very disingenuous indeed! It's hard for me to think a Christian would do that.........close their eyes to obvious truth. But it seems to happen a lot among Christians (thanks again, Calvin). Scary stuff (for them).

Here's lots of context for those of you out there who are interested in seeing what the passage is really saying sanctified means.

8After saying above, “SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE in them” (which are offered according to the Law), 9then He said, “BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, 13waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. 14For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. 15And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,

16“THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART,
AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,”
He then says,


17“AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS
I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE.”


18Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

19Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; 24and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, 33partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated. 34For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one. 35Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

Hebrews 10:8-36 NAS

Somehow 'sanctified' doesn't mean a saved person anymore by the time you get to vs.29. Disingenuous indeed.
What are once saved always saved people afraid of that keeps them from acknowledging these plain words of the Bible?

You don't make the fear of the truth of being able to lose your salvation go away by closing your eyes to it in the Bible. You make that fear go away by continuing to believe in Jesus all the way to the end of your life, just as the Bible tells you to do. Do that and you have nothing to fear. On the other hand, change the meaning of what the Bible has to say.....well.....you've got plenty to be afraid of.
 
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Amen! In Hebrews 3:14, we read - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.

*Notice that the wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end. It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end.

What about the faltering Hebrews who end up departing from God after beginning with some level of confidence and profession of loyalty, but then later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.
Good explanation of Hebrews 3:14 by MailmanDan. See also 117,290
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,377
466
83
I think the argument they use here is sanctified does not really mean a saved person. They pick out a definition and usage of sanctified (from Strong's concordance, I guess) that protects their doctrinal presupposition, even though the context plainly defines the meaning and definition of sanctified being used. Very disingenuous indeed! It's hard for me to think a Christian would do that.........close their eyes to obvious truth. But it seems to happen a lot among Christians (thanks again, Calvin). Scary stuff (for them).

Here's lots of context for those of you out there who are interested in seeing what the passage is really saying sanctified means.

8After saying above, “SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE in them” (which are offered according to the Law), 9then He said, “BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, 13waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. 14For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. 15And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,

16“THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART,
AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,”
He then says,


17“AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS
I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE.”


18Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

19Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; 24and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, 33partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated. 34For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one. 35Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

Hebrews 10:8-36 NAS

Somehow 'sanctified' doesn't mean a saved person anymore by the time you get to vs.29. Disingenuous indeed.
What are once saved always saved people afraid of that keeps them from acknowledging these plain words of the Bible?

You don't make the fear of the truth of being able to lose your salvation go away by closing your eyes to it in the Bible. You make that fear go away by continuing to believe in Jesus all the way to the end of your life, just as the Bible tells you to do. Do that and you have nothing to fear. On the other hand, change the meaning of what the Bible has to say.....well.....you've got plenty to be afraid of.
The scriptures are very obvious but because the have created God in their own image, they need to do contortionist acts to force fit truth to fit their own doctrines. Instead of saying "Wait, I need to reassess my position". It is better to believe the truth and humbly change your position, rather than win your argument and miss the mark on that day.