Not By Works
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Careful what ya say amigo! 
For there are "depths and breadths" of matters, that would certainly scare ya!
Which, I suppose, are the reason/s why so many members of the "body of Christ", refuse to recognize "other" members of the "body of Christ."
Which, I suppose, are reasons why these "members", so oft times "conflict" with each other, as in not being in, let alone of the "body of Christ!"
Agree?
For there are "depths and breadths" of matters, that would certainly scare ya!
Which, I suppose, are the reason/s why so many members of the "body of Christ", refuse to recognize "other" members of the "body of Christ."
Which, I suppose, are reasons why these "members", so oft times "conflict" with each other, as in not being in, let alone of the "body of Christ!"
Agree?
You raise an interesting point concerning robots.
I believe that if we could earn our salvation as a result of our works, good deeds and sinning no more then Jesus would not have had to die on the cross.
He would have said "Shown you how to do it, how to be saved now get on with it no need to hang on the cross"
Now to me that makes robots.
That is just as dangerous a doctrine that you abhor concerning ES as I do with works save us.
Been a few sinless perfectionists on this thread along with those who say we must have good works to be saved.
Now dont get me wrong, faith will show up in works and fruit of the Holy Spirit.
Sin will decrease and being like Jesus will increase.
But truth is that alas and as sad as it is that a lot of people have been taught in churches that our works save us and negate faith.
You and I both know that it is faith that saves, it's that faith that will evidence in works and produce a harvest.
But those works are as a result of love for God and the people God has given us.
Peter had to move from Phileo to Agape.
Grow in love.
If the works we do are not of love then they mean nothing without faith.
I believe that if we could earn our salvation as a result of our works, good deeds and sinning no more then Jesus would not have had to die on the cross.
He would have said "Shown you how to do it, how to be saved now get on with it no need to hang on the cross"
Now to me that makes robots.
That is just as dangerous a doctrine that you abhor concerning ES as I do with works save us.
Been a few sinless perfectionists on this thread along with those who say we must have good works to be saved.
Now dont get me wrong, faith will show up in works and fruit of the Holy Spirit.
Sin will decrease and being like Jesus will increase.
But truth is that alas and as sad as it is that a lot of people have been taught in churches that our works save us and negate faith.
You and I both know that it is faith that saves, it's that faith that will evidence in works and produce a harvest.
But those works are as a result of love for God and the people God has given us.
Peter had to move from Phileo to Agape.
Grow in love.
If the works we do are not of love then they mean nothing without faith.
And, he would not have had to die on a cross if he simply makes everyone a believer by his own choice alone as Calvinistic leaning teachings say he does.
Not in any serious, respectable main line evangelical church.
We do agree on that. And, seriously, so do the people here who are being accused of being works salvationist who say, like me and you, that faith must produce works, or else it isn't genuine faith. I don't understand this blind rage against people who say what they themselves say they agree with.
Not in any serious, respectable main line evangelical church.
We do agree on that. And, seriously, so do the people here who are being accused of being works salvationist who say, like me and you, that faith must produce works, or else it isn't genuine faith. I don't understand this blind rage against people who say what they themselves say they agree with.
If you are a believer because God decided ahead of time that's what you're going to be purposely crafted to be, and unbelievers are that because God decided ahead of time that's what they will be crafted to be, that's making robots.
No thanks.
That's not a gospel to me.
There's no glory in that.
I think God can do better than that.
I think the scriptures show us that he can raise up a nation of people who love righteousness by the power of his love and grace, not because he pre-programs them ahead of time to love righteousness.
Now that's a glorious gospel!
I can ride that bus.
No thanks.
That's not a gospel to me.
There's no glory in that.
I think God can do better than that.
I think the scriptures show us that he can raise up a nation of people who love righteousness by the power of his love and grace, not because he pre-programs them ahead of time to love righteousness.
Now that's a glorious gospel!
I can ride that bus.
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I know nothing about Calvinist teaching.
The truth is that Jesus died on the cross to tear the temple curtain in two so that we can access the throne of God through faith.
It was sin that seperated us from God, that is why Jesus hung on that cross.
Would be interested to know what you consider a respectable main line evangelical church.
With regards to works salvationist it comes down as to how it's taught along with ES.
I was told once that because I did not speak in tongues it was evidence I was not saved, was also told because I smoked I was going to hell as well as smelling like it.
So now we have a paradigm based on the above.
And yes I agree that it can be seen from the other side of the coin concerning ES.
I have seen the lax attitude when it comes to sin.
And to be honest I find it abhorrent to the core.
Jesus did not die so we could sin more, he died because of our sin.
We know Paul addressed this Romans.
I have only known a few who have been like this.
Talked and walked with them about this attitude.
Just to see if they needed help and healing and release from sinful habits.
If as a result they still stay on that position of I can sin all I want and still be saved then I would shake the dust of my feet.
What upsets me is that people like me and others are accused of saying it's ok to sin all we want and be saved. Yet I that is not true.
Yet what also upsets me is that people say we must work to be saved and stop sinning.
But we cannot quantify that or qualify that.
That's why Jesus died.
Yet with reference to greasy gracers we can quantify and qualify it.
If they preach we can sin all we want, do what we want then as I say it's aborrhent.
The truth is that Jesus died on the cross to tear the temple curtain in two so that we can access the throne of God through faith.
It was sin that seperated us from God, that is why Jesus hung on that cross.
Would be interested to know what you consider a respectable main line evangelical church.
With regards to works salvationist it comes down as to how it's taught along with ES.
I was told once that because I did not speak in tongues it was evidence I was not saved, was also told because I smoked I was going to hell as well as smelling like it.
So now we have a paradigm based on the above.
And yes I agree that it can be seen from the other side of the coin concerning ES.
I have seen the lax attitude when it comes to sin.
And to be honest I find it abhorrent to the core.
Jesus did not die so we could sin more, he died because of our sin.
We know Paul addressed this Romans.
I have only known a few who have been like this.
Talked and walked with them about this attitude.
Just to see if they needed help and healing and release from sinful habits.
If as a result they still stay on that position of I can sin all I want and still be saved then I would shake the dust of my feet.
What upsets me is that people like me and others are accused of saying it's ok to sin all we want and be saved. Yet I that is not true.
Yet what also upsets me is that people say we must work to be saved and stop sinning.
But we cannot quantify that or qualify that.
That's why Jesus died.
Yet with reference to greasy gracers we can quantify and qualify it.
If they preach we can sin all we want, do what we want then as I say it's aborrhent.
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I can "see" by your reply, you don't understand election" at all!
The bad part is, most people do not know there is even a different way to understand election and are only able to see election the way they are taught it in the box of their carefully controlled denomination.
