Not By Works

[Ariel82]

Let me put this simply.

When I have a loving relationship with my parents or my wife or my children, it is not imagined
or bounded by theory or dependent on one set of beliefs or another, it is a relationship.

Now we argue with each other about which beliefs found what, and how it all works together,
but at the end of the day, it comes down to, do we know God or not, and do we have a living
heartfelt relationship with Him.

God cares about how love and care flows from us and how we walk with each other.
Jesus is the cornerstone of this, and our communion with Him.

I get the feeling many know the theory but feel a far off, struggling with sin and who
they are which drives them to prayer and spiritual things.

You want to take this into theology all the time, put it within constraints, ideas, which
will always give you a headache. Learning to reach out and trust, and not rely on constructs
is part of walking in the Spirit.

You always want to make it about "relationship" and "feelings", when this is about theology and ideas.

Continue as you like but realize that some comments aren't about YOU or directed to you.

Sometimes folks like having a conversation without your strawmen being propped up next to them and you to pretend to talk for them.

"School teacher marking homework" hardly. Try.,,someone who took the time to read and comment and start a conversation with someone she thought might be intelligent enough to actually understand what she was saying so she wouldn't be wasting her precious time tearing down strawmen?

 

[Ariel82]

When we are talking about doing wrong what are you talking about, in detail?
Are doing sinful acts every day, choosing to rebel against God and doing evil deeds?

Or are we talking about sensitivities about upsetting people, doing what others want
us to do, making commitments to do something but not being able to fulfill it.

And we need fellowship with the Lord because that is our hearts desire, this is love and
what it means to dwell with the most High.

And the fear of doing wrong, is the fear that love cannot flow openly through you to others.
What staggers me is a group who claim to be not sin conscious but loving or righteousness
conscious actually spend all their time thinking sin has condemned them, and by sinning the
justify the need of Christ. Now it is ironic to fall for such a lie. Either you love Christ for who
He is, and not because you are a failure, or you are an unrepentant sinner who is wedded to
sin and rebels against the love the comes through the cross.

What bigger afront to the Lord, to have a people who claim to know Him, yet condemn themselves
and deny the victory He has purchased by not repenting, openning their hearts and walking in His
love and cleansing. And ofcourse this reality is new, it is only open to the elect who walk in the
Holy Spirit, but it is obvious this is far fewer than many want to claim.

Imagine the genious at work to take the most consciencious legalists, crush their pride by rejection
from their communities and then turn them around as totally forgiven sinners, still trapped in sin
while condemning Gods elect. Poetry in motion. Every argument mirrored and used against them,
like a mocking dance. Except it fails when faced with real love and humbleness. But that was always
his mistake, not really understanding the Lords schemes, to use everything to bring glory to His name
and people, Halleluyah, Praise to the Name of Jesus.

So is all a theoretical constructs or do you have this arrow aimed at a "certain group"?

Do you know many people who do the following?

1. Are doing sinful acts every day, choosing to rebel against God and doing evil deeds?

2. actually spend all their time thinking sin has condemned them, and by sinning the
justify the need of Christ.

3. condemn themselves
and deny the victory He has purchased by not repenting,

4 consciencious legalists, crush their pride by rejection
from their communities and then turn them around as totally forgiven sinners, still trapped in sin
while condemning Gods elect.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This statement shows the difference between our knowledge of Christ.
We are not saved because we do wrong, we are saved because we commune with
Christ and in walking with Him we do no wrong.

I have tried to be silent and ignore this person since I have been back from my peaceful vacation. But this is something I hope someone already commented on, But I fell I also need to comment on. Because it speaks to the heart of the issue.

While I agree with Peter 100 % this IS what differentiates us. His view must be thoroughly thought out.

1. He claims he is not sinless. Yet here he claims we are saved because (as a result of ) we do not wrong, That means sinless perfection.

2. He claims he does not teach works (he even has Ariel convinced he does not preach works) yet here he preaches that we are only saved if we commune with God and walk with him, in which we do no wrong (again sinless) ie, it is our WORK of communing and walking in obedience that we have EARNED the right to be saved.

3. He proves he does not even understand the mmeaning of the term salvation, In reality, If one is communing and walking with God in obedience 24/7 (no sin) they do not need to be saved. they have EAR the right to be called children of God, even though the apostle Jhn said we were given the right by GOD to be called children of God based on our faiht in him, not obedience

4. No to may posts ago, Peter posted the passage of the pharisee claiming to be holy and righteous and not like the sinner, Yet here we have peter claiming to be holy and righteous and praising God he is not like the sinner, Then judging the sinner who Jesus said went home justified as unsaved.

anyone who continues to say this man and the men who liked his comment do not teach works, well I just do not know what other proof you need.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

My point is that there are many different reasons why people don't believe or trust in eternal security...

1. they have a hard time trusting that God really loves them that much.
2. They may have a false gospel
3. They may have a false image of who God really is.

Etc

How we address people ago help them understand eternal security should be based on if

1,they have true saving faith in the true gospel and just immature Christian
2. They need to hear the true gospel beacuse they have a false one.

Then in any of these cases, how can we think they are saved? Where is their faith in God?

Thats like saying, Hey God I trust you, But not to do what you promised. You cant love me so much you died for me, so I could never be eternally secure, I have to earn it. That where works based theology comes from. This and pride of thinking you are righteous (which is point 2 of your 3) and 3, if their image of God is false. then again, how can they trust God based on a false image and clai to be saved>

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Or you don't know all the true promises made by God in the Bible and are still learning God is teaching you....

What promises? concerning the gospel? If you do not know them yet, how can you be saved? You can not have saving faith in something you do not understand. God must still teach you..

In other words you are not a fully mature Christian but do have a saving faith in Christ.

How? We are talking about the gospel here, Not sanctification and how God works in our daily lives, We are talking about eternal life, Justification, Born again, If we do not understand the, we can not claim we have faith iin them.

Which is different from a person who believed a false works salvation gospel and was never saved to begin with.

May be different, but the outcome is the same, You can not have faith in something you do not understand. Thats why when you give the gospel. you give it all. Not just part of it, Including the part of recieving eternal life and security in christ.

 

[Ariel82]

I have tried to be silent and ignore this person since I have been back from my peaceful vacation. But this is something I hope someone already commented on, But I fell I also need to comment on. Because it speaks to the heart of the issue.

While I agree with Peter 100 % this IS what differentiates us. His view must be thoroughly thought out.

1. He claims he is not sinless. Yet here he claims we are saved because (as a result of ) we do not wrong, That means sinless perfection.

he doesn't claim to be perfect...but water downs sin and doesn't not say his "doing wrong" is sin.

For example this statement shows the root of the issue...

""When i say i do wrong everyday, it could be something like having a bit of an attitude, or be careless with my words to someone,"

Let us be honest, this is not sin we are talking about here, but about attitude and motive.
I have stopped analysing my attitudes or motives, because invariably I construct a lot of
things that do not exist or are just ideas."

.

2. He claims he does not teach works (he even has Ariel convinced he does not preach works) yet here he preaches that we are only saved if we commune with God and walk with him, in which we do no wrong (again sinless) ie, it is our WORK of communing and walking in obedience that we have EARNED the right to be saved. .

you are adding to what is being said.

.

3. He proves he does not even understand the mmeaning of the term salvation, In reality, If one is communing and walking with God in obedience 24/7 (no sin) they do not need to be saved. they have EAR the right to be called children of God, even though the apostle Jhn said we were given the right by GOD to be called children of God based on our faiht in him, not obedience
.

.... Again you assume he teaches sinless perfection and base you conclusion off of that.

.

4. No to may posts ago, Peter posted the passage of the pharisee claiming to be holy and righteous and not like the sinner, Yet here we have peter claiming to be holy and righteous and praising God he is not like the sinner, Then judging the sinner who Jesus said went home justified as unsaved.

anyone who continues to say this man and the men who liked his comment do not teach works, well I just do not know what other proof you need.

I don't agree with many of PeterJens statement. However The major thing he has is a false definition of what God considers sins and how he has chosen to ignore his sin by mentally justifying it as not sin in need of repentance.

Attitude and motive is our heart and we should anatlize them to see if they conform to Christ...otherwise we are disobeying the command of Jesus to take every thought captive.

If you just look at external things then the car can be easily washed but it's still whitewashed tombs filled with dead men bones if you don't conform yourthoughts, motives and attitude to Christ and His will.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Good morning PeterJens...When i say i do wrong everyday, it could be something like having a bit of an attitude, or be careless with my words to someone, then the Holy Spirit will recall it to mind and i repent and carry on walking with my Lord Jesus thanking Him that He cares so much about me to correct me...I do not deliberately go out of my way to sin because i am a new creation in Christ and have put off the old and put on the new, but yes i do still sin, even if its a tiny sin to me it is still sin so therefore i can not walk perfectly with the Lord while on this earth...I am walking in such a way now with Jesus and i know He is pleased with me because i have the peace of the Holy Spirit that tells me so, i just do not believe anyone can walk every day being sinless, not because we dont want to but because we still live in the flesh...But thanks be to God our Almighty Father who by His Grace we have been saved through Faith, and every day i need corrected untill the day He calls me home...xox...

well said and thank you, This explains what we all go through (whether we like to admit it or not) and why we all should keep our eyes focused on Christ, and not how good we are.. And never be to proud to think we have achieved some perfect state in our daily living, which we would only be fooling ourselves

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"When i say i do wrong everyday, it could be something like having a bit of an attitude, or be careless with my words to someone,"

Let us be honest, this is not sin we are talking about here, but about attitude and motive

Sin is sin is sin.

We can not excuse our sin, just because we think it is not bad. We must condemn it, confess it and move on.. Hiding in our own sin and denying it is what makes us self righteous people in the first place.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

he doesn't claim to be perfect...but water downs sin and doesn't not say his "doing wrong" is sin.

For example this statement shows the root of the issue...

""When i say i do wrong everyday, it could be something like having a bit of an attitude, or be careless with my words to someone,"

Let us be honest, this is not sin we are talking about here, but about attitude and motive.
I have stopped analysing my attitudes or motives, because invariably I construct a lot of
things that do not exist or are just ideas."

. you are adding to what is being said.

..... Again you assume he teaches sinless perfection and base you conclusion off of that.

.

I don't agree with many of PeterJens statement. However The major thing he has is a false definition of what God considers sins and how he has chosen to ignore his sin by mentally justifying it as not sin in need of repentance.

The man said we are not saved because we are in need of salvation, He said we are saved because we walk with God and because of our walk we obey God.

It does not matter if he claims sinless or not (although his requirement would demand sinless) He still teaches salvation is earned by our work (obedience? )

Why do you keep denying this?

 

[Ariel82]

Then in any of these cases, how can we think they are saved? Where is their faith in God?

Thats like saying, Hey God I trust you, But not to do what you promised. You cant love me so much you died for me, so I could never be eternally secure, I have to earn it. That where works based theology comes from. This and pride of thinking you are righteous (which is point 2 of your 3) and 3, if their image of God is false. then again, how can they trust God based on a false image and clai to be saved>

2 and 3 aren't saved...1 needs love and reassurance that God really loves them and they are safe.

 

[Ariel82]

The man said we are not saved because we are in need of salvation, He said we are saved because we walk with God and because of our walk we obey God.

It does not matter if he claims sinless or not (although his requirement would demand sinless) He still teaches salvation is earned by our work (obedience? )

Why do you keep denying this?

If we are saved, we walked with God and obey Him.

If we weren't in need of salvation, would anyone need a savior?

Give me one clear quote where he teaches this.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If we are saved, we walked with God and obey Him.

If we weren't in need of salvation, would anyone need a savior?

Give me one clear quote where he teaches this

smh,

you complain about Peter and Grace777 and how they talk, you ever think maybe it is you?

lets look at the facts.

1. EG sad he needs saved because he still sins

2. Peter response?

This statement shows the difference between our knowledge of Christ.
We are not saved because we do wrong, we are saved because we commune with
Christ and in walking with Him we do no wrong.

I.e., EG was wrong, we are not saved because we sin and need saved, we are saved because we commune and walk with God, and are obedient. In other words, we are not obedient because we are saved, we are saved because we are obedient. That is works plain and simple

 

[PeterJens]

You always want to make it about "relationship" and "feelings", when this is about theology and ideas.

God bless you Ariel.

You want to be right so much, so ofcourse you are right and I am wrong.

Do you have to pass an IQ test to know Jesus?

 

[Ariel82]

smh,

you complain about Peter and Grace777 and how they talk, you ever think maybe it is you?

lets look at the facts.

1. EG sad he needs saved because he still sins

2. Peter response?



I.e., EG was wrong, we are not saved because we sin and need saved, we are saved because we commune and walk with God, and are obedient. In other words, we are not obedient because we are saved, we are saved because we are obedient. That is works plain and simple

Or it could be him misunderstanding or misdirecting what you said.

He is trying to trap you into showing that you believe people are saved IN THEIR SINS.

Notice how he says "We are not saved because we do wrong, "?

Peterjens likes to play word games.

I don't like it but then it happens to folks who don't question their own motives or bother to take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ...it happens to folks who is more about the "relationship" with Jesus than learning sound doctrine.

He didn't say you are wrong..he says his knowledge of God is this: that you aren't saved IN SIN and that if we walk fully with the Holy Spirit we do no wrong.

I have seen him admit that he doesn't walk with the Holy Spirit 100% of the time.

So what he says isn't false in itself. Its just incomplete.

 

[Ariel82]

God bless you Ariel.

You want to be right so much, so ofcourse you are right and I am wrong.

Do you have to pass an IQ test to know Jesus?

This isn't about being right or winning IQ test. This is about standing for God's truth and dismantling lies that war against the knowledge of God.

Shouldn't all God's children seek His wisdom?

 

[PeterJens]

If we weren't in need of salvation, would anyone need a savior?

I think this touches on an interesting truth.
Without God and communion with Him, no matter how moral we could set out we
would destroy ourselves and end in death and sin. It is like saying can we have life
without water and air? The answer is obviously no.

The Lord is innate in everything around us, who we are and where we are going.
We have an illusion of objectivity, but outside the Lord there is nothing.

Equally there is no such thing as knowing God and expression of love from the heart.
To know God is to love from the heart, so to hate ones brother or sister in Christ,
is to realise that this individual does not know God.

So if there are no expression of this love, then there is no spiritual realisation of the
Lord.

Now if people who struggle with this, the question of which part are they struggling
with? Do they love Jesus? Do they love righteousness and walking in His ways?
If the answer is yes to both, it is a question of working this through ones life, and you
know the living God.

 

[Ariel82]

Everyone can decide to cling to images of who they think the other person was or is now.

Or they can learn to see who God is making them to become in Christ.

It's your choice: see as the world sees or pray and ask God to show you who you and others can be when we are spiritually mature, grounded in Christ and fully understand, believe and take hold ALL of GOD'S promises.

Have a blessed day.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Or it could be him misunderstanding or misdirecting what you said.

He is trying to trap you into showing that you believe people are saved IN THEIR SINS.

Notice how he says "We are not saved because we do wrong, "?

Peterjens likes to play word games.

I don't like it but then it happens to folks who don't question their own motives or bother to take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ...it happens to folks who is more about the "relationship" with Jesus than learning sound doctrine.

He didn't say you are wrong..he says his knowledge of God is this: that you aren't saved IN SIN and that if we walk fully with the Holy Spirit we do no wrong.

I have seen him admit that he doesn't walk with the Holy Spirit 100% of the time.

So what he says isn't false in itself. Its just incomplete.

Yeah, whatever, continue on,

Peter is not playing a word game he is telling us what he believes, if you refuse to see it, there is nothing more I can add.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

2 and 3 aren't saved...1 needs love and reassurance that God really loves them and they are safe.

If 1 is saved, then need led away fro. Peter and the other people who are on a war to set eternal security as a false gospel, because they will risk leading them astray

 

[Grace777x70]

It is vitally important to get the gospel of the grace of God in Christ right and to have the proper foundation built first in Him by grace through faith alone.

Without that - we are building a false building no matter how much we try to pretty it up and try to mimic the life of Christ by our own humanistic thoughts and self-effort of the flesh.

Flesh and blood ( human self-effort in these not yet unredeemed bodies) cannot inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Cor. 15:50

A little leaven of works for salvation and to remain saved will ruin the whole lump. A little leaven of works-righteousness will ruin the truth of the gift of righteousness which is in Christ.