Not By Works

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Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
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They then write a blank check with the word "obey" and proceed to fill in whatever amount of works they feel are necessary to be saved
To help you better understand where they're coming from, you and me also agree that without works a person will not be saved when Jesus comes back. And just like us, they think that, not because works earn salvation, but because real faith has works attached.

This is where it's kind of important to distinguish between being justified and being saved. Although you are saved when you are justified the two terms are not interchangeable as if one is the definition of the other. These two verses illustrate the difference:

"7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life." - Titus 3:7

"10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. " - Romans 10:10
 

Judges1318

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Nov 16, 2019
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Yes, they are dead the law (Talmud, oral law).
And also to Torah (for what that actually means).

(Read the emboldened parts. Parenthesis added by me)

15We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in d Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

17“But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker.

19For through the law I (a Jew) died to the law so that I might live for God. 20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” - Galatians 2:15-21

Jews are just as dead to the law as we gentiles are. Paul uses himself to show the Galatians, who were going back to the law for justification, that not even Jews are justified through the law. They're dead to it, too.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Do we need to have faith to be saved? YES
Do we need to love God by loving one another to be saved?
YES

In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,
1 John 5:3 NIV
https://1john.bible/1-john-5-3

You have said in response to Kolistus that, "therefore Obedience is PART OF THAT LOVE, and NEVER HAS BEEN PART OF SALVATION." Did Jesus told (taught) the apostles about this?

If I don't love my neighbor as I love myself, will I be saved according to the Scriptures?

“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Matthew 25:45‭-‬46 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/mat.25.45-46.NIV
This is works based, putting the cart before the horse as I call it salvation,

it says I must clean myself up first, then maybe God will accept me.
as apposed to coming to our knees as the tax collector (sinner) and calling out to God because you have realized how broken and bankrupt you are, calling out for God’s mercy,


we can’t love our neighbor UNTIL we are saved, until then we are totally in the flesh, with no capacity to truly love anyone, as we are bound to take care of self.

we love BECAUSE he first loved us,(because we are saved)


thus, those who are saved are a work in process. And he who began a good work WILL (not might) complete that work. That’s the promise of God. We should hold on to that promise. For it is the hope we have placed our faith in.

the Reason those people never did those things is because they were never saved, since they were never saved, they had no capacity to love.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
45,561
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Do we need to have faith to be saved? YES
Do we need to love God by loving one another to be saved?
YES

In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,
1 John 5:3 NIV
https://1john.bible/1-john-5-3

You have said in response to Kolistus that, "therefore Obedience is PART OF THAT LOVE, and NEVER HAS BEEN PART OF SALVATION." Did Jesus told (taught) the apostles about this?

If I don't love my neighbor as I love myself, will I be saved according to the Scriptures?

“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Matthew 25:45‭-‬46 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/mat.25.45-46.NIV
It is not that they loved me, but that I loved them and gave myself for them....

Love is a process of growth and maturity AFTER ONE HAS BEEN SAVED BY FAITH!!!!
 
Mar 14, 2011
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In Romans 7, Paul is addressing the Jews... we need to understand that. The Jews have the written Torah (law) and oral Torah (law)... which one do you think Paul was referring to that will lead you to death?
In fact, the law never had power to keep anyone from the bondage of sin, that was never its purpose
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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In Romans 7, Paul is addressing the Jews... we need to understand that. The Jews have the written Torah (law) and oral Torah (law)... which one do you think Paul was referring to that will lead you to death?
In Romans 7 Paul is still addressing the church at Rome which had Gentiles and Jews!
 
Mar 14, 2011
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You know we agree on this ;) how are you doing E-G?
I am doing great.

yes I knew, I was just agreeing with you and showing this to the room.

the person you are having a discussion with I have decided to not respond to. So I was supporting you

ps.. how are you? Long time no see!
 
Jan 25, 2015
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Things are going great, thank you. I completed my first year of Bible school last year (a testimony in itself).

My wife started a new charity organisation (also such a wow testimony) we are being blessed in the midst of darkness in South Africa.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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Show us how what James says to do is different from what Paul says.


What is notably absent from James' letter is any admonition to keep Sabbaths, get circumcised, etc. That's why I have no problem with it.


How is this different than what Paul wrote?

JAMES:
17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. - James 2:17

PAUL:
6 The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. - Galatians 5:6



JAMES:
8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” a you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” b also said, “You shall not murder.” c If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker. - James 2:8-11

PAUL:
8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” a and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” b 10Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. - Romans 13:8-10

31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. - Romans 3:31

14For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” - Romans 5:14
james letter was written to the Jews.

Why in the world would he need to tell them about the necessity of circumcision if they have been circumcised since 8 years old?
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Things are going great, thank you. I completed my first year of Bible school last year (a testimony in itself).

My wife started a new charity organisation (also such a wow testimony) we are being blessed in the midst of darkness in South Africa.
That’s great to know., God has blessed you
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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It means exactly what it says.
No twisting, no subversion, no creative interpretations necessary.
The plain words are there for everyone to read.

"18 "...show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." - James 2:18

"24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." - James 2:24

The passage interprets itself.
I've heard Roman Catholics, Mormons and Campbellites also say, "the passage interprets itself," then proceed to write it out like this, "You see that a man is justified/saved by works and not by faith alone" in order to teach salvation by faith PLUS WORKS. It's sound to me like you may be in the same boat with them. :cautious:

The plain words are there for everyone to read with no twisting when you understand that James is not using the word "justified"in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). *Hermeneutics.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is: (more than one definition)

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was declared to be righteous and not accounted as righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Just as vs. 10 & 14 in Hebrews 10 show us which definition of 'sanctified' is being used in verse 29, so it is that James 2:18 shows us which definition of 'justified' James is using in verse 24.
'Sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is not the same definition as 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:10,14. The one proves eternal (Hebrews 10:10,14) and the other proves guilty of apostasy (Hebrews 10:29). Sanctified or 'set apart' as an active participant in the Hebrew Christian community of believers doesn't mean saved, just as an unbelieving spouse in 1 Corinthians 7:14 who is "sanctified" by their believing spouse doesn't mean saved. Sanctified (in regards to being saved) once for all/perfected for all time (Hebrews 10:10,14) is in contradiction with "were (past tense) sanctified" (in regards to being saved) but no longer are sanctified (Hebrews 10:29)

Strong's Concordance
hagiazó: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Original Word: ἁγιάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hagiazó
Phonetic Spelling: (hag-ee-ad'-zo)
Definition: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Usage: I make holy, treat as holy, set apart as holy, sanctify, hallow, purify.

Now which definition of 'justified' do you believe James is using in verse 24? Is it "accounted as righteous" or "shown to be righteous?" Spell it out for all of us to see.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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To help you better understand where they're coming from, you and me also agree that without works a person will not be saved when Jesus comes back. And just like us, they think that, not because works earn salvation, but because real faith has works attached.
Without resulting evidential works, a person demonstrates they have a dead faith (James 2:14) and not authentic faith. All genuine believers are fruitful, although not all believers are equally fruitful.

This is where it's kind of important to distinguish between being justified and being saved.
Those who have been saved through faith are justified.

Although you are saved when you are justified the two terms are not interchangeable as if one is the definition of the other. These two verses illustrate the difference:
It sounds to me like you are confusing the 3 tenses of salvation (justification, ongoing sanctification, glorification)

"7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life." - Titus 3:7
The NASB reads - so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. I noticed that you try really hard to force everything to fit with NOSAS.

"10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved." - Romans 10:10
I've heard certain people misinterpret Romans 10:9,10 (usually Campbellites) in such a way that means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week and then we are finally saved next week, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is moot (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to "verbally confess with their mouth."

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
20,349
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(y)

"Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds." - James 2:18

"The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." - Galatians 5:6
We show our faith by our works, but we do not establish it. Faith expresses itself through love because when we are saved through faith, we receive the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13) and God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Romans 5:5) :)
 
N

Nobodybutjesus

Guest
the Reason those people never did those things is because they were never saved, since they were never saved, they had no capacity to love.
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Was the good Samaritan already saved or not?

ASV Luke 10:25-37
¶And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour? And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him, And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee. Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.