Not By Works

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dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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It became the most snake filled place ever. Moderators didn't help either
Yeah, we have a few here....they constantly devalue JESUS, faith, salvation, his blood, his work on our behalf, his promises etc...

This self sustained faith false gospel is the top of my list when it comes to false teachers......it utterly sickens me and peeves me off the same time...

JESUS FINISHES and COMPLETES that which he starts....these deceivers that say WE MUST MAINTAIN it are not of GOD.......
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
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Can I ask a question.....are you dense or just wilfully obstinate to the truth?

What part of FINISH and COMPLETE do you not understand.....?

JESUS finishes and completes FAITH IN US PAL....and I for one am sick to death of your devaluation of JESUS and FAITH by your self serving, self sustained satanic faith NOT given in scripture.....!
It would be really awesome to get answers to those question.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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This is funny. Let's check who asked the question from our convo.


There goes my question to you and let's see your presumptuous reply.



And here you are now with this...

"please note when someone asks you a question. Don’t demand they answer you when you have yet answered them."

I'm not gonna buy this. Thanks anyway.

Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves. Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. Share with the Lord’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality. Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited. Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord. On the contrary: “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
Romans 12:9‭-‬21 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/rom.12.9-21.NIV
You can sit here and scream all you want

as I already said, the lawyer believed he obeyed the law. Jesus tried to show him how he failed, because as a lawyer, he would have walked around the unclean Samaritan or half breed, that is the context of Jesus conversation with the man, you trying to twist what God was saying does not support your case. Maybe your like the lawyer and that’s why you are resistant to look at context?


your new here, you have not entered in a good way. you cam in attacking people’s belief system, and if you thought that would be recieved lightly your wrong

either way my reply to your statement was that you believe we must clean ourself up first. That was the conversation starter or what you should be focused on.

if you did not think this, you surely would have corrected me, so I will continue to think this is what you believe and I was correct in my assessment of what you said.



You also,have refused to even acknowledge the word of God which says we love BECaUSE God loved us first

either this is correct or the whole bible should be rejected because it is flawed.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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THE ENTIRE PURPOSE FOR THE LAW, CAN BE SUMMED UP IN THESE VERSES:

Romans 7:7 (HCSB)
7 What should we say then? Is the law sin? Absolutely not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin if it were not for the law. For example, I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, Do not covet.

Romans 3:20 (HCSB)
20 For no one will be justified in His sight by the works of the law, because the knowledge of sin ⌊comes⌋ through the law.


The LAW was NEVER a means by which we could make yourselves RIGHTEOUS in GOD's sight. IT WAS ALWAYS SO HIGH OF A STANDARD, THAT WE WOULD FIND IT IMPOSSIBLE TO KEEP IT PERFECTLY, THEREBY, DRIVING US TO OUR KNEES SEEKING A MESSIAH TO SAVE US.


James 2:10 (HCSB)
10 For whoever keeps the entire law, yet fails in one point, is guilty of ⌊breaking it⌋ all.


Old Testament Saints were those who BELIEVED that God would send a MESSIAH to pay for their SINS.

New Testament Saints are those who BELIEVE that God DID send a MESSIAH to pay for our SINS.

IT IS THE SAME AS ABRAHAM'S FAITH.

NEVER was the Law a system where we out of our own strength could make ourselves Right with GOD.

Both Groups of SAINTS were SAVED do GOD's Mercy and Grace, though a FAITH that was not of ourselves.

Isaiah 1:13-18 (HCSB)
13 Stop bringing useless offerings. ⌊Your⌋ incense is detestable to Me. New Moons and Sabbaths, and the calling of solemn assemblies— I cannot stand iniquity with a festival.
14 I hate your New Moons and prescribed festivals. They have become a burden to Me; I am tired of putting up with ⌊them⌋.
15 When you lift up your hands ⌊in prayer⌋, I will refuse to look at you; even if you offer countless prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are covered with blood.
16 “Wash yourselves. Cleanse yourselves. Remove your evil deeds from My sight. Stop doing evil.
17 Learn to do what is good. Seek justice. Correct the oppressor. Defend the rights of the fatherless. Plead the widow’s cause.
18 “Come, let us discuss this,” says the LORD.Though your sins are like scarlet, they will be as white as snow; though they are as red as crimson, they will be like wool.


The JEWS LOWERED the LAW OF GOD, to where they COULD KEEP IT THEMSELVES, and thought they were RIGHT WITH GOD, Because they Could KEEP the Lowered Standard ritualistically, they stopped SEEKING a MESSIAH who could DO IT ALL.

Now we have another Generation, that have Stopped SEEKING a MESSIAH who could DO IT ALL, and think their LOWERED STANDARD, of KEEPING the LAW makes themselves, out of their own efforts, RIGHT WITH GOD. Anytime your WORKS have a MOTIVE of improving your SALVATION, IT IS FOOLISHNESS. You need to become 100% dependent on HIS MERCY and GRACE.

If you want your SINS washed as white as snow, REPENT, and stop thinking your deeds have made you right with GOD, and LEARN to rely on what JESUS DID ON THE CROSS. HIS MERCY, and HIS GRACE, will keep, your Sins already washed as White as SNOW. Then you will be free indeed, and then you can use that freedom to agapē LOVE GOD by striving to become Obedient out of PURE LOVE.

Until you do, you are in the same sinking ship as the JEWS that GOD described in Isaiah 1:13-18
It’s crazy!
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
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Judges1318 said:


"The problem is osas has devolved even further into a doctrine that says you don't even have to continue to believe in Christ to be saved when He comes back. That's where it crosses the line from being just another innocent opinion about doctrine. "

Nonsense and untruthful. Not one OSAS has said such a thing nor do we believe such a thing. You are a twister of words.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
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Judges1318 said:


"The problem is osas has devolved even further into a doctrine that says you don't even have to continue to believe in Christ to be saved when He comes back. That's where it crosses the line from being just another innocent opinion about doctrine. "

Nonsense and untruthful. Not one OSAS has said such a thing nor do we believe such a thing. You are a twister of words.
He is speaking from his own imagination...
...xox...
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
2,185
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Have you forgotten your conclusion on Acts 21, which happened after James wrote his letter?
By Acts 21 James is putting on appearances for the sake of the Jews. He had already been corrected in Acts 15.

The sad part is, James is actually the reason Paul died in Rome. People should not play games trying to placate others. Look what it got Paul.
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
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Judges1318 said:


"The problem is osas has devolved even further into a doctrine that says you don't even have to continue to believe in Christ to be saved when He comes back. That's where it crosses the line from being just another innocent opinion about doctrine. "

Nonsense and untruthful. Not one OSAS has said such a thing nor do we believe such a thing. You are a twister of words.
Google 'Hyper Grace' and 'Free Grace'.
Calvin's once saved always saved doctrine isn't what it used to be, lol.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
3,163
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By Acts 21 James is putting on appearances for the sake of the Jews. .
Haha, I can see you have a vivid sense of imagination.

Do you know a bit about his history? Do you know why he is called James the Just, how fervent he was regarding the Law?
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
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You make continuing to believe sound like a strenuous endeavor,
Apparently it wasn't so easy for the Galatians or the Corinthians.
Depends on how deep the word is rooted in your heart.
The condition of the heart, and as a result, the depth to which the word is rooted in a person's heart is the extent to which they will have strong or weak faith in Christ and whether or not they will persevere in the word.

Me? I just happen to cling very strong to the forgiveness of sin I have in Christ, but then again I've never been tortured to find out how strong. So I say that with a lot of caution and humility. As should all of you.

...which sounds like work to me...
To the weak believer it may be more difficult to want to continue in Christ than for you or me. The more growed up in Christ you get the more you realize you can't project your personal experience onto others. You gotta give them room to be different and have their own relationship with God according to how they're glued together. That's what the mature Christian does.

Through believing, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption). Jesus Christ gets all the merit.
Amen, bro.
That is what it means to believe.
But some people here accuse me of working for my salvation for simply saying what the Bible says about continuing to believe in the work of Christ.
Last time I checked, 'believing' is still not one of the works that Paul said can not justify, no matter how hard or easy it is for a peson.
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
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Haha, I can see you have a vivid sense of imagination.

Do you know a bit about his history? Do you know why he is called James the Just, how fervent he was regarding the Law?
Not by Acts 21.
By then he had been thoroughly corrected by Paul about the necessity to keep the ceremonial law of Moses. Which is probably why we don't see a breath about ceremonial law keeping in his letter.
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
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Acts 21:20-25 already made it clear to me that, James believed Jews must always keep the Law, and his James Chapter 2 reinforced that.
Where in James chapter 2 does James say to keep Sabbaths, circumcision, Festivals, etc?

And before you answer, remember that Paul also talks about keeping the law and we know that doesn't mean in any way shape or form keeping Sabbaths, circumcision, Festivals, etc. Understand what I'm driving at? So think before you answer.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
3,163
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Not by Acts 21.
By then he had been thoroughly corrected by Paul about the necessity to keep the ceremonial law of Moses. Which is probably why we don't see a breath about ceremonial law keeping in his letter.
I have already addressed both your points and I concluded "Among all the arguments from silence I have encountered in Christian forums, yours take the cake".

You have already made up your mind so let's leave it as that.
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
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These "nominal" Christians/make believers certainly were "sanctified" or "set apart" (but not saved) as active participants in the Hebrew Christian community of believers
Once again I ask you to post the scripture that teaches us that willfully sinning unbelievers in the church are made clean by the blood of Christ for contact and association with believers, like an unbelieving spouse is declared clean for the sake of a believer, so the believer and his children will not being made unclean by the unbelieving spouse.

If you do not produce this scripture I will assume you can not find one and my argument will stand.
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
2,185
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I have already addressed both your points and I concluded "Among all the arguments from silence I have encountered in Christian forums, yours take the cake".

You have already made up your mind so let's leave it as that.
If you would just give me plain scripture, and not an argument based on conjecture, I would be on board.

Paul plainly said the Jews are also dead to the law, and that's good enough for me.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
4,546
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Google 'Hyper Grace' and 'Free Grace'.
Calvin's once saved always saved doctrine isn't what it used to be, lol.
Round in circles you go.... just like Ralph.

There is only ONE doctrine of salvation and it is written throughout scripture.

Your "keep believing to earn/keep salvation" is the one that is not found anywhere.
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
2,185
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Roman Catholics also like to make eternal life something that might or might not happen for believers. They heavily push eternal IN-security and they even have their own translation of John 3:16 in the NAB that reads - For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life. *Notice not one, but two "mights." hmm.. :cautious:
I've met and talked to some truly awesome Catholics, and I'm being honest. But I detest the Catholic church system, but it is true that 'should' and 'have' really are in the subjunctive mood of possibility (not the mood of certainty).
Check it out for yourself here (click on the 'PARSE' button next to 'should' and 'have'):

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/jhn/3/1/t_conc_1000016

I think you owe it to me to explain how you can interpret those verbs as being in the indicative mood, the mood of certainty, when we can see with our own eyes in the link to Strong's above that they are in the subjunctive mood, the mood of uncertainty.

And thank you for yet another nugget of truth in these passages that get blindly defined as osas passages. I'd never seen that before.

Romans 8:30 clearly states - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. (y)
Yep.
Now explain how Paul can then say it 'might' happen in Titus 3:7.
Hey, I'm just asking.
What do you say?
I'll hold my thoughts about this apparent contradiction in scripture until I know your's.
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
2,185
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I'm out of time for now and we already previously discussed this.
When you have time, post the verses in Hebrews that say Christ's ministry being 'one time for all time' means you can't lose it.
I'm pretty sure you won't find that there, but what you will find is that it means Christ's ministry never fails and so does not have to be performed over and over again.

If I put a mask on you that makes you look like Jerry Seinfeld perfectly and forever and will never wear out, does that mean it can never be removed from you no matter what, or does it simply mean the mask will never wear out and will always be a true likeness of him and never need to be replaced?
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
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The issue is that God does the saving, not us.
Yep. No disagreement there.
Nobody saves themselves.
And nobody can be saved until God makes the opportunity open to them.
That's what makes salvation so entirely of God's grace and mercy.
But that hardly means we don't have to place our trust in Him to have that salvation.

Genuine faith? God decides that as well. Only God knows the "heart" of man.
The Bible does tell us how we can know if we have genuine, saving faith:

14We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.
15Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
18Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.
19We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him
1 John 3:14-15,18-19



I go by His word that if I believe in Him and His work on the Cross unto salvation, I am saved.
Nothing wrong with that.
Just don't ignore the passages I just posted above.
Most people do ignore them.

Remain saved? Once saved always saved.
The word of God has to remain in you for you to remain in the Son and the Father.

"24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." - 1 John 2:24

And I only see any sense of perseverance of the word in the believer in the 4th type of soil in the Parable of the Sower.
Until a person can say they are the 4th type of soil they have no basis upon which to assert that the word of God will never be uprooted from their heart.