Not By Works

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Tellion

Junior Member
Jan 8, 2003
279
350
63
Memorizing bible verses ....well maybe
self-indoctrination.

Education is only indoctrination when it is done uncritically I think.
So I disagree.
admittedly, I've read a few of your comments all over the forum, and I fear you are probably smarter than I , but I would love to have this debate with you later, preferably in another thread where it won't get drowned by the primary conversation, but for now please allow me to amend my initial statement by saying education requires indoctrination; specifically due to the fact that you cannot think critically about information you don't have.

As far as this thread goes, I think we're in a fair bit of agreement, so I won't engage further here.
 

Tellion

Junior Member
Jan 8, 2003
279
350
63
There is a vast difference between religious indoctrination and biblical transformation.......
I should clarify, I don't agree with Catholicism, I am raised reformed, but when unbelievers speak of biblical education, they use the word indoctrination, because children memorize the Bible, they memorize the verses, etc. If Christianity is going to be villainized for education the same way we educate in every other subject, let's just call it what it is.
 

OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
1,338
2,114
113
admittedly, I've read a few of your comments all over the forum, and I fear you are probably smarter than I , but I would love to have this debate with you later, preferably in another thread where it won't get drowned by the primary conversation, but for now please allow me to amend my initial statement by saying education requires indoctrination; specifically due to the fact that you cannot think critically about information you don't have.

As far as this thread goes, I think we're in a fair bit of agreement, so I won't engage further here.

Don't be discouraged to post here.😁

When you are honest (like you seem to be) people will always take the time to read your post and share their own perspective. You won't be drowned out.

It is people who can't admit error, or try to sidestep issues and impute additional beliefs to others or just write novels of nothing but worldly religion who get passed over. (at least passed over by me after a few swings and misses lol)

This thread is primarily meant to give glory to Jesus for salvation, to encourage and build up those who seek truth and to fight against anyone trying to claim we are saved by "works of righteousness". (opposed to Gods grace)



....
oh wow.... I was going to say "welcome to cc!"... then I noticed you have been here far longer than I have😯


(my first account was made about 4 years ago i believe)
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
7,355
7,756
113
admittedly, I've read a few of your comments all over the forum, and I fear you are probably smarter than I , but I would love to have this debate with you later, preferably in another thread where it won't get drowned by the primary conversation, but for now please allow me to amend my initial statement by saying education requires indoctrination; specifically due to the fact that you cannot think critically about information you don't have.

As far as this thread goes, I think we're in a fair bit of agreement, so I won't engage further here.
Sorry if I was a bit terse, sadly a certain poster does not bring out the best in me but I am working on it!.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
7,355
7,756
113
admittedly, I've read a few of your comments all over the forum, and I fear you are probably smarter than I , but I would love to have this debate with you later, preferably in another thread where it won't get drowned by the primary conversation, but for now please allow me to amend my initial statement by saying education requires indoctrination; specifically due to the fact that you cannot think critically about information you don't have.

As far as this thread goes, I think we're in a fair bit of agreement, so I won't engage further here.
Agree it is important to provide all the information so a person can think critically.
 

Tellion

Junior Member
Jan 8, 2003
279
350
63
Don't be discouraged to post here.😁

When you are honest (like you seem to be) people will always take the time to read your post and share their own perspective. You won't be drowned out.

It is people who can't admit error, or try to sidestep issues and impute additional beliefs to others or just write novels of nothing but worldly religion who get passed over. (at least by me lol)

This thread is primarily meant to give glory to Jesus for salvation, to encourage and build up those who seek truth and to fight against anyone trying to claim we are saved by "works of righteousness". (opposed to Gods grace)



....
oh wow.... I was going to say "welcome to cc!"... then I noticed you have been here far longer than I have😯


(my first account was made about 4 years ago i believe)
Oh, it's not that I'm afraid of being outwitted, I just don't like keeping up with the white rapid movement of online debate, and I'm trying to be more selective about where and with whom I devote my time online. And thank you for the belated invite😉 I'm an off and onner. It changes a little bit every time I come back, with the exception of a few faces.
Sorry if I was a bit terse, sadly a certain poster does not bring out the best in me but I am working on it!.
the worst thing you said to me was "I disagree." I wouldn't say"terse" I'm okay. 😉
 

OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
1,338
2,114
113
Oh, it's not that I'm afraid of being outwitted, I just don't like keeping up with the white rapid movement of online debate, and I'm trying to be more selective about where and with whom I devote my time online. And thank you for the belated invite😉 I'm an off and onner. It changes a little bit every time I come back, with the exception of a few faces.
the worst thing you said to me was "I disagree." I wouldn't say"terse" I'm okay. 😉
"I'm trying to be more selective about where and with whom I devote my time online. "

Sounds like being wise with what God provides to me.😁

I am guilty of being drawn into discussions that weren't any more fruitful than talking to a block of cheese.🤦‍♂️
 

Tellion

Junior Member
Jan 8, 2003
279
350
63
"I'm trying to be more selective about where and with whom I devote my time online. "

Sounds like being wise with what God provides to me.😁

I am guilty of being drawn into discussions that weren't any more fruitful than talking to a block of cheese.🤦‍♂️
The debate climate has always been a bit volatile. People come here, wanting to sound brilliant and react badly when that dream is smashed.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,078
3,655
113
All education is technically indoctrination. Saying the word doesn't automatically make it especially heinous. When you memorize Bible verses, that is, by definition, indoctrination.


See if my true story can SMASH your would be faith.

My true Story, is the reason I said that. I was indoctrinated via the Lutheran Catechism. I thought I was a Christian all of my life, but found out I was fooling myself all along. I thought sitting on a pew in the Lutheran Church, made me a Christian. I went to Sunday School and Church all the way through, High School. I was an Acolyte (Altar Boy), I went to Lutheran Service Volunteer School, Memorizes Verses, Was PROUD that I was a Lutheran, etc., etc. AND FOUND OUT THAT I WAS NEVER SAVED, until shortly before my 29th Birthday.

When I was 28, I married a woman for ALL THE WRONG REASON, after only knowing her for 6 months. Six months after that, while I was employed at the Post Office, my wife demanded a DIVORCE, because I could not earn enough money to by her the things she wanted in life. That was on Christmas Eve 1977. I hit BOTTOM BIG TIME, and I did not want to live another day. I attempted suicide THREE times during the next week. First time I had a pistol against temple, trigger half pulled. When a SHEAR TERROR of KNOWING I was in the gates of HATES, and would walk in, IF I FINISHED PULLING THAT TRIGGER. It did not care it if hurt my parents, or my brother, or my sister, I JUST WANTED TO CEASE TO EXIST. That TERROR WAS WAY BEYOND what another man could put in me with a knife to my throat intent on KILLING ME. I stood there shaking, and dropping the Pistol instantly, and thankfully it Fell on the Bed.

Two night Later, I TRIED AGAIN. Pistol against my Temple, Trigger half pulled, only this time I called my soon to be Ex. I wanted her to HEAR THE GUN SHOT, and then silence. One again that TERROR WAS WAY BEYOND what another person could ever put in me. AND I KNEW I WAS IN THE GATES TO HATES WAITING TO WALK IN. This time the pistol with a half pulled trigger hit that floor, and I just hung up the phone. I do not know why the Pistol did not go off, hitting the floor.

A couple nights later, I sat at a bar, getting as drunk as I could. Thinking about the country road near my place, where I saw them POUR VERY LOOSE GRAVEL, and KNOWING, it was the Perfect Place to arrange a fatal Motorcycle Accident. The Bar closed, so I rode my bike home, and to leave my helmet there, and then went directly to that LOOSE GRAVEL MILE. As I approached the Mile, I taunted GOD, by SHOUTING AT THE SKY, "If you want to take me, YOU can do it anywhere you want to on this mile!" I even knew the BIBLE said, "Thou shall not temp the LORD." I leaned out over the handle bars, because I wanted to hit head first when I lost control. I hit that MILE full throttle, and to me it seems like I was riding on Pavement for the whole mile. I stopped a little while at the next intersection, looking back at the mile in bewilderment, still as drunk as I could get without passing out.

I went slowly back home, and sat up most of the night, trying to make sense of what had happened on that mile. Finally about 5:00, not sure I did not look at the clock, I decided to go to bed. As I walking into the bedroom, a thought came into my mind, "I cannot ride a bike like that, even sober. GOD must have reached down and held the bike steady for the whole mile." A flood of GUILT washed over my whole body for my enter lifestyle, again, and again, and again. I fell to my knees, and later to prone position, as major tears, came over me, wave, after wave, and I CRIED out to HIM, "LORD FORGIVE ME! LORD FORGIVE! If You have a purpose for my life, then You are going to have to come into it, and control my life, because I CANNOT DO IT!" I had never heard a prayer like that in the Church of my youth. I believe the Holy Spirit gave it to me, when I needed it most. It was a TOTAL Surrender to HIM, and I KNEW IT.

I continued two Cry and Weep like baby, and continued to PRAY, "LORD FORGIVE ME! LORD FORGIVE! ", as my mind raced through all the offenses to GOD that I could think of. I Cried till the Tears ran out, and then Cried some more, for what seemed like an hour. THEN SOMETHING UNUSUAL HAPPENED. I do not know if it was a VISION, or a DREAM, but I had NEVER HAD A DREAM with so vivid in details and feelings.

I found myself at the FOOT OF THE CROSS, on my KNEES reaching up to HIM. Still pleading for FORGIVENESS, and Still CRYING. I looked and the NAILS were not in HIS HANDS, they were IN HIS WRISTS. The Church that I grew up in only mentioned they were in HIS HANDS. Years later I learned that the JEWS consider the Wrist to be PART OF THE HANDS. As I starred at the NAILS, I saw blood come out around those Nails. It fell and splashed on my outstretched forearms, and THE BLOOD FELT WARM! That is where the Vision or Dream ended. BUT I KNEW IT MEANT I WAS FORGIVEN!

DID HE TAKE CONTROL OF MY LIFE: OH YES, DID HE EVER. But that is another story. However that NIGHT was the very first NIGHT that I was BORN AGAIN, FOR REAL. IT HAS TO BE REAL IN YOUR HEART {in your Human Spirit} FIRST, to be BORN AGAIN, as you surrender to HIM out of pure Agape LOVE. Prior to that night, I only believed in my head before. Even the Demons can believe in their heads.
 

Tellion

Junior Member
Jan 8, 2003
279
350
63
See if my true story can SMASH your would be faith.

My true Story, is the reason I said that. I was indoctrinated via the Lutheran Catechism. I thought I was a Christian all of my life, but found out I was fooling myself all along. I thought sitting on a pew in the Lutheran Church, made me a Christian. I went to Sunday School and Church all the way through, High School. I was an Acolyte (Altar Boy), I went to Lutheran Service Volunteer School, Memorizes Verses, Was PROUD that I was a Lutheran, etc., etc. AND FOUND OUT THAT I WAS NEVER SAVED, until shortly before my 29th Birthday.

When I was 28, I married a woman for ALL THE WRONG REASON, after only knowing her for 6 months. Six months after that, while I was employed at the Post Office, my wife demanded a DIVORCE, because I could not earn enough money to by her the things she wanted in life. That was on Christmas Eve 1977. I hit BOTTOM BIG TIME, and I did not want to live another day. I attempted suicide THREE times during the next week. First time I had a pistol against temple, trigger half pulled. When a SHEAR TERROR of KNOWING I was in the gates of HATES, and would walk in, IF I FINISHED PULLING THAT TRIGGER. It did not care it if hurt my parents, or my brother, or my sister, I JUST WANTED TO CEASE TO EXIST. That TERROR WAS WAY BEYOND what another man could put in me with a knife to my throat intent on KILLING ME. I stood there shaking, and dropping the Pistol instantly, and thankfully it Fell on the Bed.

Two night Later, I TRIED AGAIN. Pistol against my Temple, Trigger half pulled, only this time I called my soon to be Ex. I wanted her to HEAR THE GUN SHOT, and then silence. One again that TERROR WAS WAY BEYOND what another person could ever put in me. AND I KNEW I WAS IN THE GATES TO HATES WAITING TO WALK IN. This time the pistol with a half pulled trigger hit that floor, and I just hung up the phone. I do not know why the Pistol did not go off, hitting the floor.

A couple nights later, I sat at a bar, getting as drunk as I could. Thinking about the country road near my place, where I saw them POUR VERY LOOSE GRAVEL, and KNOWING, it was the Perfect Place to arrange a fatal Motorcycle Accident. The Bar closed, so I rode my bike home, and to leave my helmet there, and then went directly to that LOOSE GRAVEL MILE. As I approached the Mile, I taunted GOD, by SHOUTING AT THE SKY, "If you want to take me, YOU can do it anywhere you want to on this mile!" I even knew the BIBLE said, "Thou shall not temp the LORD." I leaned out over the handle bars, because I wanted to hit head first when I lost control. I hit that MILE full throttle, and to me it seems like I was riding on Pavement for the whole mile. I stopped a little while at the next intersection, looking back at the mile in bewilderment, still as drunk as I could get without passing out.

I went slowly back home, and sat up most of the night, trying to make sense of what had happened on that mile. Finally about 5:00, not sure I did not look at the clock, I decided to go to bed. As I walking into the bedroom, a thought came into my mind, "I cannot ride a bike like that, even sober. GOD must have reached down and held the bike steady for the whole mile." A flood of GUILT washed over my whole body for my enter lifestyle, again, and again, and again. I fell to my knees, and later to prone position, as major tears, came over me, wave, after wave, and I CRIED out to HIM, "LORD FORGIVE ME! LORD FORGIVE! If You have a purpose for my life, then You are going to have to come into it, and control my life, because I CANNOT DO IT!" I had never heard a prayer like that in the Church of my youth. I believe the Holy Spirit gave it to me, when I needed it most. It was a TOTAL Surrender to HIM, and I KNEW IT.

I continued two Cry and Weep like baby, and continued to PRAY, "LORD FORGIVE ME! LORD FORGIVE! ", as my mind raced through all the offenses to GOD that I could think of. I Cried till the Tears ran out, and then Cried some more, for what seemed like an hour. THEN SOMETHING UNUSUAL HAPPENED. I do not know if it was a VISION, or a DREAM, but I had NEVER HAD A DREAM with so vivid in details and feelings.

I found myself at the FOOT OF THE CROSS, on my KNEES reaching up to HIM. Still pleading for FORGIVENESS, and Still CRYING. I looked and the NAILS were not in HIS HANDS, they were IN HIS WRISTS. The Church that I grew up in only mentioned they were in HIS HANDS. Years later I learned that the JEWS consider the Wrist to be PART OF THE HANDS. As I starred at the NAILS, I saw blood come out around those Nails. It fell and splashed on my outstretched forearms, and THE BLOOD FELT WARM! That is where the Vision or Dream ended. BUT I KNEW IT MEANT I WAS FORGIVEN!

DID HE TAKE CONTROL OF MY LIFE: OH YES, DID HE EVER. But that is another story. However that NIGHT was the very first NIGHT that I was BORN AGAIN, FOR REAL. IT HAS TO BE REAL IN YOUR HEART {in your Human Spirit} FIRST, to be BORN AGAIN, as you surrender to HIM out of pure Agape LOVE. Prior to that night, I only believed in my head before. Even the Demons can believe in their heads.
I'm not about to insult your testimony. And I never implied a man could be saved with only knowledge. But to cut it out entirely and view it as not a part of the whole is equally as foolish. The Heidelberg catechism is not the Bible, it's a tool to teach children to read and understand the Bible. If we as Christians leave obstructed the roads that we have cleared from confusion for those who follow after us, what have we truly learned? The reformed catechism is similar to a diary, or a roadmap of those roads we have cleared. It isn't a guarantee of salvation.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
45,561
19,302
113
I'm not about to insult your testimony. And I never implied a man could be saved with only knowledge. But to cut it out entirely and view it as not a part of the whole is equally as foolish. The Heidelberg catechism is not the Bible, it's a tool to teach children to read and understand the Bible. If we as Christians leave obstructed the roads that we have cleared from confusion for those who follow after us, what have we truly learned? The reformed catechism is similar to a diary, or a roadmap of those roads we have cleared. It isn't a guarantee of salvation.
You sound like a Psychologist...........
 

Tellion

Junior Member
Jan 8, 2003
279
350
63
See if my true story can SMASH your would be faith.

My true Story, is the reason I said that. I was indoctrinated via the Lutheran Catechism. I thought I was a Christian all of my life, but found out I was fooling myself all along. I thought sitting on a pew in the Lutheran Church, made me a Christian. I went to Sunday School and Church all the way through, High School. I was an Acolyte (Altar Boy), I went to Lutheran Service Volunteer School, Memorizes Verses, Was PROUD that I was a Lutheran, etc., etc. AND FOUND OUT THAT I WAS NEVER SAVED, until shortly before my 29th Birthday.

When I was 28, I married a woman for ALL THE WRONG REASON, after only knowing her for 6 months. Six months after that, while I was employed at the Post Office, my wife demanded a DIVORCE, because I could not earn enough money to by her the things she wanted in life. That was on Christmas Eve 1977. I hit BOTTOM BIG TIME, and I did not want to live another day. I attempted suicide THREE times during the next week. First time I had a pistol against temple, trigger half pulled. When a SHEAR TERROR of KNOWING I was in the gates of HATES, and would walk in, IF I FINISHED PULLING THAT TRIGGER. It did not care it if hurt my parents, or my brother, or my sister, I JUST WANTED TO CEASE TO EXIST. That TERROR WAS WAY BEYOND what another man could put in me with a knife to my throat intent on KILLING ME. I stood there shaking, and dropping the Pistol instantly, and thankfully it Fell on the Bed.

Two night Later, I TRIED AGAIN. Pistol against my Temple, Trigger half pulled, only this time I called my soon to be Ex. I wanted her to HEAR THE GUN SHOT, and then silence. One again that TERROR WAS WAY BEYOND what another person could ever put in me. AND I KNEW I WAS IN THE GATES TO HATES WAITING TO WALK IN. This time the pistol with a half pulled trigger hit that floor, and I just hung up the phone. I do not know why the Pistol did not go off, hitting the floor.

A couple nights later, I sat at a bar, getting as drunk as I could. Thinking about the country road near my place, where I saw them POUR VERY LOOSE GRAVEL, and KNOWING, it was the Perfect Place to arrange a fatal Motorcycle Accident. The Bar closed, so I rode my bike home, and to leave my helmet there, and then went directly to that LOOSE GRAVEL MILE. As I approached the Mile, I taunted GOD, by SHOUTING AT THE SKY, "If you want to take me, YOU can do it anywhere you want to on this mile!" I even knew the BIBLE said, "Thou shall not temp the LORD." I leaned out over the handle bars, because I wanted to hit head first when I lost control. I hit that MILE full throttle, and to me it seems like I was riding on Pavement for the whole mile. I stopped a little while at the next intersection, looking back at the mile in bewilderment, still as drunk as I could get without passing out.

I went slowly back home, and sat up most of the night, trying to make sense of what had happened on that mile. Finally about 5:00, not sure I did not look at the clock, I decided to go to bed. As I walking into the bedroom, a thought came into my mind, "I cannot ride a bike like that, even sober. GOD must have reached down and held the bike steady for the whole mile." A flood of GUILT washed over my whole body for my enter lifestyle, again, and again, and again. I fell to my knees, and later to prone position, as major tears, came over me, wave, after wave, and I CRIED out to HIM, "LORD FORGIVE ME! LORD FORGIVE! If You have a purpose for my life, then You are going to have to come into it, and control my life, because I CANNOT DO IT!" I had never heard a prayer like that in the Church of my youth. I believe the Holy Spirit gave it to me, when I needed it most. It was a TOTAL Surrender to HIM, and I KNEW IT.

I continued two Cry and Weep like baby, and continued to PRAY, "LORD FORGIVE ME! LORD FORGIVE! ", as my mind raced through all the offenses to GOD that I could think of. I Cried till the Tears ran out, and then Cried some more, for what seemed like an hour. THEN SOMETHING UNUSUAL HAPPENED. I do not know if it was a VISION, or a DREAM, but I had NEVER HAD A DREAM with so vivid in details and feelings.

I found myself at the FOOT OF THE CROSS, on my KNEES reaching up to HIM. Still pleading for FORGIVENESS, and Still CRYING. I looked and the NAILS were not in HIS HANDS, they were IN HIS WRISTS. The Church that I grew up in only mentioned they were in HIS HANDS. Years later I learned that the JEWS consider the Wrist to be PART OF THE HANDS. As I starred at the NAILS, I saw blood come out around those Nails. It fell and splashed on my outstretched forearms, and THE BLOOD FELT WARM! That is where the Vision or Dream ended. BUT I KNEW IT MEANT I WAS FORGIVEN!

DID HE TAKE CONTROL OF MY LIFE: OH YES, DID HE EVER. But that is another story. However that NIGHT was the very first NIGHT that I was BORN AGAIN, FOR REAL. IT HAS TO BE REAL IN YOUR HEART {in your Human Spirit} FIRST, to be BORN AGAIN, as you surrender to HIM out of pure Agape LOVE. Prior to that night, I only believed in my head before. Even the Demons can believe in their heads.
Additionally, since you hadn't reacted yet, I was obviously talking about past experiences, years and years ago, when I used the word "smashed" and not talking about you. Don't take everything so personally.
 

Tellion

Junior Member
Jan 8, 2003
279
350
63