Not By Works

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EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
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Before I go on, are you insinuating that I don't believe in the perseverance of the saints? Calvinists usually end up dropping the first two letters this day and age. So I don't say "once saved" it implies a moment in time "before God loved me"which there isn't. My BIBLICAL KNOWLEDGE taught me that.
Explain...why do not state "once saved" I am confused?
 

Tellion

Junior Member
Jan 8, 2003
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You getting very close to a negative spirit of divisiveness. It is only fair that I interpret that I am responsible to use this example to know when GOD expects me to put them on my Permanent IGNORE LIST:

Titus 3:9-11 (HCSB)
9 But avoid foolish debates, genealogies, quarrels, and disputes about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
10 Reject a divisive person after a first and second warning,
11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sins, being self-condemned.
You're the one who keeps implying you're
You getting very close to a negative spirit of divisiveness. It is only fair that I interpret that I am responsible to use this example to know when GOD expects me to put them on my Permanent IGNORE LIST:

Titus 3:9-11 (HCSB)
9 But avoid foolish debates, genealogies, quarrels, and disputes about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
10 Reject a divisive person after a first and second warning,
11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sins, being self-condemned.
You're welcome to block me. I'm just trying to get you to engage in the conversation. You're not using anything in context of what I said. Do far all I've heard is "the Lutheran's got it wrong" which yes, they did. It doesn't make my point invalid.
 

Tellion

Junior Member
Jan 8, 2003
279
350
63
Explain...why do not state "once saved" I am confused?
If God loved you before creation, your salvation was planned before creation. I have a hard time explaining properly some of the more intricate implications. I'm sure there's plenty of questions. You were just "always saved"
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
44,291
17,783
113
Explain...why do not state "once saved" I am confused?
The problem is two fold.....salvation is viewed from two different perspectives and we sometimes conflate the two.....Since God is eternal, not subject to time (timing for sure) and outside the construct of TIME he views salvation from his perspective....I.E. we were saved before the casting down of the world in his eyes because he knew we would believe (1st aspect) The 2nd aspect is from a humanistic view.....we are linear in our thinking due to time and being subject to time.....we are saved in our minds when we actually acknowledge JESUS by faith and the majority of the time view our salvation from a particular point of time in our physical lives......

Both are correct......but is not incorrect to say I was saved at such and such time even though I was saved before the earth was cast down in creation.....

Just for the record....God did not say DAVE was going to be saved and nothing he could do about it...God predetermined before he cast the world down in creation that ALL who are called and then ACKNOWLEDGE by faith shall be saved and received as a son/daughter of GOD.......God knew I would believe....hence I was saved in his eyes BEFORE the world was cast down even though I did not actually acknowledge him by faith until such and such date.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
44,291
17,783
113
If God loved you before creation, your salvation was planned before creation. I have a hard time explaining properly some of the more intricate implications. I'm sure there's plenty of questions. You were just "always saved"
126544.....this may help explain it??
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
4,023
4,738
113
The problem is two fold.....salvation is viewed from two different perspectives and we sometimes conflate the two.....Since God is eternal, not subject to time (timing for sure) and outside the construct of TIME he views salvation from his perspective....I.E. we were saved before the casting down of the world in his eyes because he knew we would believe (1st aspect) The 2nd aspect is from a humanistic view.....we are linear in our thinking due to time and being subject to time.....we are saved in our minds when we actually acknowledge JESUS by faith and the majority of the time view our salvation from a particular point of time in our physical lives......

Both are correct......but is not incorrect to say I was saved at such and such time even though I was saved before the earth was cast down in creation.....

Just for the record....God did not say DAVE was going to be saved and nothing he could do about it...God predetermined before he cast the world down in creation that ALL who are called and then ACKNOWLEDGE by faith shall be saved and received as a son/daughter of GOD.......God knew I would believe....hence I was saved in his eyes BEFORE the world was cast down.
Agree for sure.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
9,570
3,417
113
Before I go on, are you insinuating that I don't believe in the perseverance of the saints? Calvinists usually end up dropping the first two letters this day and age. So I don't say "once saved" it implies a moment in time "before God loved me"which there isn't. My BIBLICAL KNOWLEDGE taught me that.
You have got to be NEW HERE, I have had this discussion with numerous new people. I AM NOT A CALVINISTS AND NEVER HAVE BEEN.
I only believe in 3 of the 5 points of Calvinism. MOST Evangelical Christians will agree with me. WE ARE NOT CALVINISTS. Armenians will not have us, because we believe in three points of Calvinists, and CALVINISTS will not have us because of the 2 points I disagree with. AS FAR AS I KNOW, MOST OSAS BELIEVERS ARE Evangelical Christians. You can call us just normal Christians. We Evangelicals BURIED that Calvinists vs. Armenian Argument in the early 80's. So how come people keep wanting to dig that rotting corpse up ? ? ?
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
4,023
4,738
113
If God loved you before creation, your salvation was planned before creation. I have a hard time explaining properly some of the more intricate implications. I'm sure there's plenty of questions. You were just "always saved"
I understand now what you meant.
All good.
 

Tellion

Junior Member
Jan 8, 2003
279
350
63
126544.....this may help explain it??
No. I get daunted at trying to explain "God does all things for his own glory" to people...
You have got to be NEW HERE, I have had this discussion with numerous new people. I AM NOT A CALVINISTS AND NEVER HAVE BEEN.
I only believe in 3 of the 5 points of Calvinism. MOST Evangelical Christians will agree with me. WE ARE NOT CALVINISTS. Armenians will not have us, because we believe in three points of Calvinists, and CALVINISTS will not have us because of the 2 points I disagree with. AS FAR AS I KNOW, MOST OSAS BELIEVERS ARE Evangelical Christians. You can call us just normal Christians. We Evangelicals BURIED that Calvinists vs. Armenian in the early 80's. So how come people keep wanting to dig that rotting corpse up ? ? ?
Wow way to put on that hypocrite robe with the devisive accessories. It suits you.
 

Tellion

Junior Member
Jan 8, 2003
279
350
63
The problem is two fold.....salvation is viewed from two different perspectives and we sometimes conflate the two.....Since God is eternal, not subject to time (timing for sure) and outside the construct of TIME he views salvation from his perspective....I.E. we were saved before the casting down of the world in his eyes because he knew we would believe (1st aspect) The 2nd aspect is from a humanistic view.....we are linear in our thinking due to time and being subject to time.....we are saved in our minds when we actually acknowledge JESUS by faith and the majority of the time view our salvation from a particular point of time in our physical lives......

Both are correct......but is not incorrect to say I was saved at such and such time even though I was saved before the earth was cast down in creation.....

Just for the record....God did not say DAVE was going to be saved and nothing he could do about it...God predetermined before he cast the world down in creation that ALL who are called and then ACKNOWLEDGE by faith shall be saved and received as a son/daughter of GOD.......God knew I would believe....hence I was saved in his eyes BEFORE the world was cast down even though I did not actually acknowledge him by faith until such and such date.
We diverge at one point.... The foreknowledge of God in your context, is by my estimation a conditionary statement, making God's salvation conditional. And I have a hard time believing that anything outside of God's own will, belief or otherwise, can be an influencer of God's actions.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
44,291
17,783
113
We diverge at one point.... The foreknowledge of God in your context, is by my estimation a conditionary statement, making God's salvation conditional. And I have a hard time believing that anything outside of God's own will, belief or otherwise, can be an influencer of God's actions.
God's salvation is conditional.....one must believe to be saved.....

Where I am going you cannot go/be, BECAUSE you believe NOT that I am he.

If you do not think God's salvation is conditional upon belief....not sure what you believe....

SIRS, WHAT MUST I DO to be SAVED <----BELIEVE
 

Tellion

Junior Member
Jan 8, 2003
279
350
63
You have got to be NEW HERE, I have had this discussion with numerous new people. I AM NOT A CALVINISTS AND NEVER HAVE BEEN.
I only believe in 3 of the 5 points of Calvinism. MOST Evangelical Christians will agree with me. WE ARE NOT CALVINISTS. Armenians will not have us, because we believe in three points of Calvinists, and CALVINISTS will not have us because of the 2 points I disagree with. AS FAR AS I KNOW, MOST OSAS BELIEVERS ARE Evangelical Christians. You can call us just normal Christians. We Evangelicals BURIED that Calvinists vs. Armenian Argument in the early 80's. So how come people keep wanting to dig that rotting corpse up ? ? ?
Additionally, I'm a Calvinist. Of course I know people hate me.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
9,570
3,417
113
If God loved you before creation, your salvation was planned before creation. I have a hard time explaining properly some of the more intricate implications. I'm sure there's plenty of questions. You were just "always saved"


I know for sure, that I was GOING TO GO TO HADES, the night I had the PISTOL against my temple (IF I FINISHED PULLING THAT TRIGGER), as SURE OF THAT as I AM ALSO SURE THE HOLY SPIRIT IN MY HEART (HUMAN SPIRIT) BIRTHED my Dead Spirit INTO ETERNAL LIFE.

I AM ALSO SURE THIS VERSE IS THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH, AND DOES NOT CREATE A CONTRADICTION:

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
4,023
4,738
113
God's salvation is conditional.....one must believe to be saved.....

Where I am going you cannot go/be, BECAUSE you believe NOT that I am he.

If you do not think God's salvation is conditional upon belief....not sure what you believe....

SIRS, WHAT MUST I DO to be SAVED <----BELIEVE
Amen ..... and Amen
 

Tellion

Junior Member
Jan 8, 2003
279
350
63
God's salvation is conditional.....one must believe to be saved.....

Where I am going you cannot go/be, BECAUSE you believe NOT that I am he.

If you do not think God's salvation is conditional upon belief....not sure what you believe....

SIRS, WHAT MUST I DO to be SAVED <----BELIEVE
I can follow all things back too the conditions that caused them until I ultimately follow them back to God. If I believed, by which verse do you say God has not caused me to believe? I will also have to do some concordance searching, I know you'll be asking the same thing of me. So until tomorrow night, God bless.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
44,291
17,783
113
I can follow all things back too the conditions that caused them until I ultimately follow them back to God. If I believed, by which verse do you say God has not caused me to believe? I will also have to do some concordance searching, I know you'll be asking the same thing of me. So until tomorrow night, God bless.
For the record, I will not argue the absolute biblical truth of choice and or the equally absurd arguments that Calvinists use to oppose the truth of choice.

EVEN JESUS had to disrobe from glory take flesh and CHOOSE.....

Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
4,023
4,738
113
It amazes me...how many think we hate someone just because we disagree theologically.....I hate no one, but for sure despise any message that does not bear up to biblical scrutiny......
Unfair really to assume someone hates you for disagreeing.... then one has to defend oneself against their false assumptions ....

I hate being put in that position though. I will admit.