Not By Works

[Tellion]

I see

Well with regards to indoctrination ...I am not fond of that word and teaching should never be indoctrination ...I think if you teach you need to have a sound basis for what you teach, you have done your own homework....to indoctrinate I think the teacher is only passing on information they have not thought critically about.

Would you agree?

I have a hard time agreeing. Understanding your sentiment and agreeing with that, yes. But in terms of what we can expect from education? Teachers rarely if ever understand all aspects of what they're teaching. I believe critical thinking is a habit you should be"indoctrinated" with before you start learning anything. People don't like using the word indoctrinate for the same reason we don't like a number of other words. Not because it especially heinous (I'm repeating myself, and while it irritates my writing style, I can't get around this phrase right now), but because of the context in which it is generally used.

So, back to education and critical thinking juxtaposed with indoctrination, I have some personal anecdotes that demonstrate what I mean, but I won't plan on using them and spare you the torture unless you'd like to hear them. Anyway, if you have an understanding of the subject matter, and you share that with your student, you have indoctrinated your own understanding, and robbed the student of an opportunity of a chance to think critically. I do not say this is bad always, but it is in reference to your point of having an understanding before teaching.

 

[EleventhHour]

I have a hard time agreeing.

You are fortunate I am in a good mood.

 

[OneOfHis]

I have a hard time agreeing. Understanding your sentiment and agreeing with that, yes. But in terms of what we can expect from education? Teachers rarely if ever understand all aspects of what they're teaching. I believe critical thinking is a habit you should be"indoctrinated" with before you start learning anything. People don't like using the word indoctrinate for the same reason we don't like a number of other words. Not because it especially heinous (I'm repeating myself, and while it irritates my writing style, I can't get around this phrase right now), but because of the context in which it is generally used.

So, back to education and critical thinking juxtaposed with indoctrination, I have some personal anecdotes that demonstrate what I mean, but I won't plan on using them and spare you the torture unless you'd like to hear them. Anyway, if you have an understanding of the subject matter, and you share that with your student, you have indoctrinated your own understanding, and robbed the student of an opportunity of a chance to think critically. I do not say this is bad always, but it is in reference to your point of having an understanding before teaching.

When I learned the word indoctrinate, I was told it held a negative connotation. If I google it now in modern english it says :

"The process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically."


Uncritically would mean : With a lack of criticism or consideration of whether something is right or wrong.


I believe Gods word always rings true... and when something feels off or as if it is a contradiction to another statement in the source material... that is a good reason to "think critically".... (and more important pray for God to show us where we misunderstand and look to Him to teach us as the Holy spirit)

We ought to not be critical of the bible itself so long as it does not contain error that can't be explained via translation and flows in perfect harmony.


We SHOULD be critical of anything we are taught or shown or understand within ourselves.


Maybe my understanding is off on this or I have bias against the word indoctrinate.... but it does seem to me to not be "education" within itself.

It seems to be blind faith regardless of evidence to the contrary. No?

 

[Tellion]

You are fortunate I am in a good mood.

I don't know that I've ever seen you in a bad mood. I have a hard time agreeing with that too.

 

[OneOfHis]

You are fortunate I am in a good mood.

I disagree too about whatever you said.😏

 

[mailmandan]

And hopefully, you saw that's what I was saying in that post. That's what makes salvation the gracious and merciful thing that it is. Even though you do the trusting, you can't do it without God's merciful and gracious intervention.

Salvation certainly is a gracious and merciful gift and without God's merciful and gracious intervention, none of us would come to believe or continue to believe.

I believe that.
I think I said that as early as just yesterday, except I include the scenario where the word becomes more firmly rooted and established as the believer grows up. But certainly, the depth to which the word is rooted in your heart determines your perseverance. 4th type of soil is where Jesus speaks of the perseverance of the word in the soil. Until you, or I, or any believer gets there the potential for the word becoming uprooted in unbelief remains. God has mercy on whom he will have mercy.

I'm not seeing the word "uprooted" in the parable of the soils, but we do see seed that fell by the wayside, seed that fell on rocky soil, seed that fell on thorny soil and finally, seed that fell on "good soil" produced fruit and persevered. ONLY the 4th soil produced fruit. Do you believe that faith without works is dead? If the 2nd and 3rd soil represents saved people, then where is the fruit?

We agree that Christ does the sustaining by providing the exact conditions for you to continue your believing.....if you want to continue to believe. And that is where we diverge. You say the true believer will always continue to believe no matter what.

If someone does not continue to believe, then they are not true believers. In John 8:31, Jesus stated - “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine. Unlike people who set out to be disciples of Christ, then later become offended by His words, turn and walk with Him no more. With such people, Jesus knew from the beginning that they did not truly believe. (John 6:60-66)

I say if that were true there would be 1) no passionate exhortations in scripture for believers to keep believing, and 2) no examples in our Bibles of the Galatians and Corinthians turning away from the gospel Paul preached to them, and the potential of the Hebrews turning away.

Of course there are exhortations in the Bible to continue in the faith, as there are imposters with a spurious faith. The Galatians were getting sidetracked by legalistic teachers, but was there any evidence that seeking to be justified by the law was their final answer? Paul had confidence in them to adopt no other view [contrary to his on the matter]; but the one who is disturbing them, whoever he is, will have to bear the penalty. In Corinthians, those who fail to hold fast to the word/the gospel that Paul preached demonstrated that they believed in vain and to "believe in vain" is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose.

If truly saved, born again Christians who are God's elect could lose their salvation, then God's promise of preserving His saints forever and Jesus' sheep receiving eternal life/never perishing or being snatched from His hand and whom He justified, He also glorified (and Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty) along with believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the redemption of the purchased possession would all be unreliable promises.

 

[EleventhHour]

I have a hard time agreeing. Understanding your sentiment and agreeing with that, yes. But in terms of what we can expect from education? Teachers rarely if ever understand all aspects of what they're teaching. I believe critical thinking is a habit you should be"indoctrinated" with before you start learning anything. People don't like using the word indoctrinate for the same reason we don't like a number of other words. Not because it especially heinous (I'm repeating myself, and while it irritates my writing style, I can't get around this phrase right now), but because of the context in which it is generally used.

So, back to education and critical thinking juxtaposed with indoctrination, I have some personal anecdotes that demonstrate what I mean, but I won't plan on using them and spare you the torture unless you'd like to hear them. Anyway, if you have an understanding of the subject matter, and you share that with your student, you have indoctrinated your own understanding, and robbed the student of an opportunity of a chance to think critically. I do not say this is bad always, but it is in reference to your point of having an understanding before teaching.

Oh I have in depth and vast understanding of the subject matter.
Let us not judge all teachers by our limited experiences ... let us start with that.

 

[Tellion]

When I learned the word indoctrinate, I was told it held a negative connotation. If I google it now in modern english it says :

"The process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically."


Uncritically would mean : With a lack of criticism or consideration of whether something is right or wrong.


I believe Gods word always rings true... and when something feels off or as if it is a contradiction to another statement in the source material... that is a good reason to "think critically"....

We ought to not be critical of the bible itself so long as it does not contain error that can't be explained via translation and flows in perfect harmony.


We SHOULD be critical of anything we are taught or shown or understand within ourselves.


Maybe my understanding is off on this or I have bias against the word indoctrinate.... but it does seem to me to not be "education" within itself.

It seems to be blind faith regardless of evidence to the contrary. No?

If we go to high school, attend a science course, they will teach you evolution. If you try to question it, you will be laughed out. Can you safely be taught without question, the tenants of evolution, without being forced to agree with them?

 

[EleventhHour]

When I learned the word indoctrinate, I was told it held a negative connotation. If I google it now in modern english it says :

"The process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically."


Uncritically would mean : With a lack of criticism or consideration of whether something is right or wrong.


I believe Gods word always rings true... and when something feels off or as if it is a contradiction to another statement in the source material... that is a good reason to "think critically".... (and more important pray for God to show us where we misunderstand and look to Him to teach us as the Holy spirit)

We ought to not be critical of the bible itself so long as it does not contain error that can't be explained via translation and flows in perfect harmony.


We SHOULD be critical of anything we are taught or shown or understand within ourselves.


Maybe my understanding is off on this or I have bias against the word indoctrinate.... but it does seem to me to not be "education" within itself.

It seems to be blind faith regardless of evidence to the contrary. No?

Agree.. I think we are talking about indoctrination in the broader context not just with regards to doctrine.

I think that sometimes people do not know that they need to examine what they are being told... so indoctrination occurs in the absence of critical thinking.

 

[Tellion]

Oh I have in depth and vast understanding of the subject matter.
Let us not judge all teachers by our limited experiences ... let us start with that.

Did we pick a subject? Maybe I'm a little behind.

 

[EleventhHour]

If we go to high school, attend a science course, they will teach you evolution. If you try to question it, you will be laughed out. Can you safely be taught without question, the tenants of evolution, without being forced to agree with them?

Just to be clear I am speaking to the ideal .. not reality.
Yes presently most all formal education is often, not always indoctrination.

 

[EleventhHour]

Did we pick a subject? Maybe I'm a little behind.

I have no idea, these conversations always meander.

 

[OneOfHis]

If we go to high school, attend a science course, they will teach you evolution. If you try to question it, you will be laughed out. Can you safely be taught without question, the tenants of evolution, without being forced to agree with them?

I did openly disagree with evolution but was also in unbelief at that age.😅 (i would bounce between my own theories and being agnostic unless i thought claiming christianity would help my cause at the time)

Didn't make it out of middleschool and started working young.

I think you can be shown what someone else believes, understand it but reject it as well.


You can start every answer with "Supposedly"🤣

 

[Tellion]

That was a short lunch break....😐

 

[OneOfHis]

That was a short lunch break....😐

Sorry.😢

Hope the rest of your time at work goes as fast as the breaks do bro.

 

[EleventhHour]

Anyway, if you have an understanding of the subject matter, and you share that with your student, you have indoctrinated your own understanding, and robbed the student of an opportunity of a chance to think critically. I do not say this is bad always, but it is in reference to your point of having an understanding before teaching.

Not if you preface it with ...."this is what the evidence is telling us, and what I have learned, but you should always do your own research so you can support your view with understanding and facts."

Indoctrination is about the person accepting and believing what they have been told... everyone is responsible for what they choose to accept and what they do not.

 

[EleventhHour]

I have never once side stepped a question to you and am very direct about what I believe...🤔

If I used a poor choice of words or you just happened to misunderstand, I would definitely take the time to try and reword whatever confused you....


I would like to know though ...
Have you had a previous account on christianchat at any point in time?

(if so what was the screen name/ account name)

I keep wondering why it is so hard to answer this question.....since is former moniker "Ralph" states "guest"

Something to hide or hiding from someone?

 

[OneOfHis]

I keep wondering why it is so hard to answer this question.....since is former moniker "Ralph" states "guest"

Something to hide or hiding from someone?

Maybe it is not ralph.... maybe it's FralphC101

 

[EleventhHour]

Maybe it is not ralph.... maybe it's FralphC101

They got together and created a Hybrid.... that explains it!!

 

[OneOfHis]

They got together and created a Hybrid.... that explains it!!

Lol I remember when benhur joined..

the first thing i asked him was something like

"Is benhur a play on the words "been here" and have you previously had an account on cc?"

his answer was something like

"i think i may have had an account a long time ago"

still to this day i feel like he left out information.... not that it matters