Not By Works

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VCO

VCO

Senior Member
#126,601
Oct 14, 2013
11,967
4,585
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#126,601
Tellion said:
I'm not even sure you're reading my posts at this point, and you just want to assert your dominance. While you are succeeding in showing me neither, it's a little insulting that you feel you can argue with me without taking the time to actually reason out what I'm saying to you or what you're saying to me. I'm not sure how to appease you seeing as you haven't actually understood anything I've said. Aren't you supposed to be ignoring me anyway?
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Not yet. We have a tool which will block your posts from showing up on my PC.

My turn to ask a question. Explain what Born Again means to you?
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#126,603
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
#126,603
mailmandan said:
He seems to believe that we are "initially" saved through faith in Christ, but after that, it's up to US to do the rest, as if "remaining saved" is accomplished through a self preservation maintenance program.
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It was up to you to believe to be saved. It's up to you to continue to believe to continue to be saved.

If you think that's a works gospel then give me chapter and verse that says trusting in Christ is a work of self righteousness.

The graciousness of salvation is not that God does your believing for you, but rather God graciously made it possible for you to believe. Because you sure can't do it yourself. You can't even know the gospel is true to begin with, let alone trust in it, except by God's gracious gift of 'knowing', the gift of faith.
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#126,604
Apr 7, 2014
25,034
13,041
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#126,604
Judges1318 said:
Nobody's arguing the fact that believing now means being saved now.
The question, is will that continue?
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Why is it so difficult to continue and can't you see a flaw in faith from the start that does not continue? Are God's saints preserved forever or not? Are believers sealed with the Holy Spirit until the redemption of the purchased possession or not?

Genuine believing is never portrayed in the Bible as a work of self righteousness.
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Never said it was, although certain people turn continuing to believe into a type 2 works salvation/maintenance program.

There's no reason to discard my understanding of the necessity for continued believing for fear that would mean that person is trying to earn their own salvation through a work of self righteousness. The requirement for believing on the part of the person themselves in no way shape or form robs salvation of God's power to preserve the person in that salvation. The only limitation in salvation is whether or not the soil itself has the potential in and of itself to retain the word of God to the very end.
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Not all soil is "good soil." Hence the "bearing fruit" and "persevering."

You can't snip that out of the whole context of scripture which explains the necessity to keep believing in order to be preserved forever.
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Do we keep believing in our strength or in God's strength? Who drew us in the first place and who sustains us?

You brought up the contradiction between John 3:16 and John 3:18 in regard to the mood of the verbs. I was not aware of the argument before. I'm studying it out now and can't comment on it until I'm done. But at this point it looks like a simple matter of considering the tense of the verb along with the mood of the verb to explain the apparent contradiction between the two verses (meaning one verse is conditional, the other emphatic).
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Hopefully the study will help you understand this more clearly.
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#126,606
Apr 7, 2014
25,034
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#126,606
Judges1318 said:
It was up to you to believe to be saved. It's up to you to continue to believe to continue to be saved.

If you think that's a works gospel then give me chapter and verse that says trusting in Christ is a work of self righteousness.

The graciousness of salvation is not that God does your believing for you, but rather God graciously made it possible for you to believe. Because you sure can't do it yourself. You can't even know the gospel is true to begin with, let alone trust in it, except by God's gracious gift of 'knowing', the gift of faith.
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Although it is our responsibility to choose to believe in Christ unto salvation and we will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving belief in Christ is never exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us (John 6:44) and enables us (John 6:65), we would NEVER come to believe in Christ unto salvation all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose to believe in Christ, we must choose to believe in Him. The impulse to saving belief in Christ comes from the Father. Continuing to believe is not some self sustained maintenance program. Whether or not we continue to believe is determined by was our belief firmly rooted and established from the start. It's Christ who saves us and sustains us, but ONLY those who TRULY BELIEVE.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
#126,607
#126,607
mailmandan said:
I don't agree with him that genuine believers stop believing or that continuing to believe is accomplished through self preservation/back door works salvation. "Keep believing to stay saved" undermines God's preservation and exalts self preservation. Saving belief in Christ continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. For by grace we "have been" (past tense, with ongoing present results) saved through faith.. (y)
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There is only one belief that saves and it impossible to undo what has been done.

@Judges1318 likes to make it all grey like there a different levels of belief . ...one belief that trusts in Jesus to save eternally.
 
OneOfHis

OneOfHis

Well-known member
#126,608
Mar 24, 2019
1,431
2,208
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#126,608
Judges1318 said:
It was up to you to believe to be saved. It's up to you to continue to believe to continue to be saved.
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Not true. Belief is an indwelling response to recieved information.


If I tell you "you can fly off that bridge if you jump off with your left foot first" you would not believe me because you can't fly period. You know this from previously recieved information.


If I told you that eating molten lava is safe and tastes good so long is it is eaten off of a public bathroom toilet seat, it is not up to you to believe it.... If you are undecided either way but want truth you would then need more information to believe or reject.... (but no... you can't choose to believe that as fact if you are honest.... you either do or you don't)
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
#126,609
#126,609
OneOfHis said:
Not true. Belief is an indwelling response to recieved information.


If I tell you "you can fly off that bridge if you jump off with your left foot first" you would not believe me because you can't fly period. You know this from previously recieved information.


If I told you that eating molten lava is safe and tastes good so long is it is eaten off of a public bathroom toilet seat, it is not up to you to believe it.... If you are undecided either way but want truth you would then need more information to believe or reject.... (but no... you can't choose to believe that as fact if you are honest.... you either do or you don't)
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Agree, @Judges1318 is viewing "belief" on the modern day transitory, fluctuating sense, classically "belief" meant something deeper being completely persuaded and convicted...in the "seat of man" heart and soul.
 
Tellion

Tellion

Junior Member
#126,610
Jan 8, 2003
279
354
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#126,610
VCO said:
Not yet. We have a tool which will block your posts from showing up on my PC.

My turn to ask a question. Explain what Born Again means to you?
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I despise nothing more than straw man arguments, and will no longer be engaging you, so long as you are unwilling to/incapable of meeting me on the grounds of arguments I've actually made.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
#126,612
#126,612
Tellion said:
I was and have always been on CC Tellion
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I see

Well with regards to indoctrination ...I am not fond of that word and teaching should never be indoctrination ...I think if you teach you need to have a sound basis for what you teach, you have done your own homework....to indoctrinate I think the teacher is only passing on information they have not thought critically about.

Would you agree?
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
#126,613
#126,613
Judges1318 said:
It was up to you to believe to be saved. It's up to you to continue to believe to continue to be saved.

If you think that's a works gospel then give me chapter and verse that says trusting in Christ is a work of self righteousness.

The graciousness of salvation is not that God does your believing for you, but rather God graciously made it possible for you to believe. Because you sure can't do it yourself. You can't even know the gospel is true to begin with, let alone trust in it, except by God's gracious gift of 'knowing', the gift of faith.
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So we have no capacity to believe...however one has to continue to believe to hold onto salvation....and yet you attribute the ability to believe to God ...yet we have to maintain something we could not really do anyway..

Hmmm this reminds me of that famous line...
"What a tangled web we weave" and in your case keep having to weave until all logic falls right out the bottom of it.

You know if you just believed the good news Jesus brought you would not need this convoluted mess...just sayin.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
#126,615
#126,615
Have time on my hands today to stand on the truth but 1b05ba313.png everyone keeps getting banned?
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
#126,619
#126,619
CherieR said:
The original is from Salvador Dali. Called the Persistence of Memory. I googled to find out who it was from.
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Interesting... he was an interesting artist for sure.. not a big fan.

The only problem with the original is he forgot to put me in it....:D
 
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