Not By Works

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Dec 12, 2013
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'Made righteous' means 'justified'.

Abraham was 'made righteous' (justified) when he believed God in Genesis 15:6.
Abraham was 'shown to be righteous' (also called 'justified') when he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22:10.
A man is justified, both, by faith apart from works, and by works.

"24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." - James 2:24

Lol, 11th hour red x'd this before it was even done posting.:LOL:
Your contention is with the Bible, not me.
But feel free to show us James is wrong.
How can one red x a post that has not been posted unless you edited it after you posted it which makes you a liar and a deceiver......do tell how she red x'ed it before it was done posting....we will all wait... right @EleventhHour
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Only one use of justification, and that’s before God. Why be justified in man’s eyes? I do one good work and man justifies me? Who cares? I care about what God thinks.
This is exactly why you miss the context of James....nor will you ever get your doctrine right until you acknowledge the context of James and the phrase SHOW ME YOUR FAITH!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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The faith of Christ was not available to Abraham. See Galatians 3.
Hahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahhahahahahahah wow man....Paul must have missed that memo when he uses THE FAITH OF DAVID AND ABRAHAM in Romans.....this type of drivel in your post devalues the wors of God!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Is it possible that Abraham was in a different dispensation. Jesus had not come yet. for Abraham living by faith but offering up a sacrificial lamb went hand in hand.
False....Abraham was justified by faith long before he iffered Isaac.....and Paul clearly equates it to tue same faith rhat justifies us before God in Romans.....
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Yes, Hebrews 11 describes those OT saints faith through their works of obedience.
False again......and exactly why you are missing the mark.....DO TELL US ALL what WORKS OF OBEDIENCE RAHAB WAS DOING WHEN SHE LIED LIKE A DOG about the spies she was hiding! We will wait!
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
How can one red x a post that has not been posted unless you edited it after you posted it which makes you a liar and a deceiver......do tell how she red x'ed it before it was done posting....we will all wait... right @EleventhHour
Not sure how could have given a red X before it was posted... the post would not be visible.

Anyway it deserves a thousand red X's .....completely disagree, works have no part in our salvation God is never in our debt.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
'Made righteous' means 'justified'.

Abraham was 'made righteous' (justified) when he believed God in Genesis 15:6.
Abraham was 'shown to be righteous' (also called 'justified') when he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22:10.
A man is justified, both, by faith apart from works, and by works.

"24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." - James 2:24

Lol, 11th hour red x'd this before it was even done posting.:LOL:
Your contention is with the Bible, not me.
But feel free to show us James is wrong.
I have shown you how James is RIGHT, many times.
James knew how one is saved, we are saved by grace through faith apart from works.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
I cannot believe how many disregard the context of James to peddle this crap that is being peddled......Paul was clear....Abraham was JUSTIFIED (PAST TENSE) the micro second he had faith......well before he offered Isaac.....these jokers make a mockery of the word of God!!
Most definitely...upsetting ... on things that are very clear.

We are not talking about obscure texts that are difficult to understand.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
How can one red x a post that has not been posted unless you edited it after you posted it which makes you a liar and a deceiver......do tell how she red x'ed it before it was done posting....we will all wait... right @EleventhHour
The time stamp on @Judges1318 post was 7:44, the time stamp on my red X was 7:45.

It would seem my ESP super powers are lacking today!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Not sure how could have given a red X before it was posted... the post would not be visible.

Anyway it deserves a thousand red X's .....completely disagree, works have no part in our salvation God is never in our debt.
That post right there and what he said proves how dishonest and deceptive he is........was rather disgusting to be honest!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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The time stamp on @Judges1318 post was 7:44, the time stamp on my red X was 7:45.

It would seem my ESP super powers are lacking today!
All he did was openly prove how dishonest he is... everyone pay attention to what Judges did above....accused @EleventhHour of red x'ing a post of his before it was done posting which is impossible to do....he is a deceiver and his false allegations are getting old!
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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All he did was openly prove how dishonest he is... everyone pay attention to what Judges did above....accused @EleventhHour of red x'ing a post of his before it was done posting which is impossible to do....he is a deceiver and his false allegations are getting old!

* have already gotten old.

contradicts himself all over the place....
 

VCO

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Oct 14, 2013
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Is it possible that Abraham was in a different dispensation. Jesus had not come yet. for Abraham living by faith but offering up a sacrificial lamb went hand in hand.

I do not know how Dispensations got started, but it is obvious it came out someone's imagination.

Let me show you something, that few ever realize the IMMENSE TRUTH about GOD, that HE actually said about HIMSELF.


Malachi 3:6 (NASB)
6 "For I, the LORD, do not change;
therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.


That means IF we can find ONE person, that GOD describes HOW that person was SAVED, then you WILL KNOW HOW HE SAVES EVERY TRUE BELIEVER.

Now look at this VERSE:

Romans 4:3-5 (NASB)
3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,


There are a LOT of people who think that Intellectual (in the Human Brain) is where believing takes place. WRONG!
Look where GOD says Genuine Believing takes place:

Romans 10:8-10 (NASB)
8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess [, it had to have happened, in your heart which is your human spirit before you can say as a CONFESSION,]
with your mouth Jesus as Lord {, and Lord means MASTER, therefore it is a surrender to HIM out of LOVE for HIM,} , and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.


That is WAY DIFFERENT than just believing in the intellectual part of the human brain, which is the faith demons, James 2:19.

Then another FALSE DOCTRINE is when people think THEY THOUGHT THAT SAVING FAITH which started as a THOUGHT in their human Brain, when IN REALITY the HOLY SPIRIT PUT THAT SAVING FAITH in your Heart (human spirit):

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

1 Corinthians 12:3 (NASB)
3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed";
and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

HERE IS A MAJOR PORTION OF SCRIPTURE ALL ABOUT SALVATION:

Romans 5:1-10 (NASB)
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;
4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;
5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. { 🡬 NOTICE IT ALL HAPPENED ON THE CROSS.}


Doesn't it amaze you how many people who think they must work for their SALVATION, are actually ROBBING JESUS of the GLORY that HE actually accomplished on the CROSS, JESUS DID IT ALL.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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I do not know how Dispensations got started, but it is obvious it came out someone's imagination.

Let me show you something, that few ever realize the IMMENSE TRUTH about GOD, that HE actually said about HIMSELF.


Malachi 3:6 (NASB)
6 "For I, the LORD, do not change;
therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.


That means IF we can find ONE person, that GOD describes HOW that person was SAVED, then you WILL KNOW HOW HE SAVES EVERY TRUE BELIEVER.

Now look at this VERSE:

Romans 4:3-5 (NASB)
3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,


There are a LOT of people who think that Intellectual (in the Human Brain) is where believing takes place. WRONG!
Look where GOD says Genuine Believing takes place:

Romans 10:8-10 (NASB)
8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess [, it had to have happened, in your heart which is your human spirit before you can say as a CONFESSION,]
with your mouth Jesus as Lord {, and Lord means MASTER, therefore it is a surrender to HIM out of LOVE for HIM,} , and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.


That is WAY DIFFERENT than just believing in the intellectual part of the human brain, which is the faith demons, James 2:19.

Then another FALSE DOCTRINE is when people think THEY THOUGHT THAT SAVING FAITH which started as a THOUGHT in their human Brain, when IN REALITY the HOLY SPIRIT PUT THAT SAVING FAITH in your Heart (human spirit):

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

1 Corinthians 12:3 (NASB)
3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed";
and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

HERE IS A MAJOR PORTION OF SCRIPTURE ALL ABOUT SALVATION:

Romans 5:1-10 (NASB)
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;
4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;
5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. { 🡬 NOTICE IT ALL HAPPENED ON THE CROSS.}


Doesn't it amaze you how many people who think they must work for their SALVATION, are actually ROBBING JESUS of the GLORY that HE actually accomplished on the CROSS, JESUS DID IT ALL.
It is absolutely hilariously sad and 100% ignorant the way some devalue faith while denying PAUL using both DAVID and Abraham (2 witnesses) from the O.T. to identify the SAME FAITH THAT SAVES AND JUSTIFIES US......these clowns know no bounds of deception and or twisting the word of God!!
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Because there really are two subjunctive mood verbs in the verse. That's why. Honest.
And yet ONLY the NAB translates John 3:16 with 2 mights.

It's not deceitful. The verbs 'should not perish' and 'have everlasting life' are in the subjunctive mood, the mood of uncertainty.
The only uncertainty in relation to 'should not perish' and 'have everlasting life' is in regards to whether or not one truly 'believes in Him or not' and not nosas, as you and Roman Catholicism teach.

Definition of "Subjunctive"
"...the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances."
The circumstances are whether or not one believes in Him.

As I've shown there are two subjunctive verb phrases in the verse.

It's not some kind of denominationally biased, extreme interpretation.
And once again, ONLY the NAB translates John 3:16 with 2 mights, but regardless, you are still willing to join hands and sing kumbaya with the Roman Catholic church over this for the sake of your biased doctrine of nosas, which Roman Catholicism also strongly supports.

I have to support their interpretation because the verbs really are easily verified to be in the subjunctive mood of uncertainty.
I am no longer surprised to see that you side with Roman Catholicism and the subjunctive mood of uncertainty is in regards to whether or not someone truly believes in Him or not, which does not support your 'keep believing' to remain saved theory of nosas. This explains why numerous other translations translate John 3:16 as shall not perish and will not perish.

AMP - “For God so [greatly] loved and dearly prized the world, that He [even] gave His [One and] only begotten Son, so that whoever believes and trusts in Him [as Savior] shall not perish, but have eternal life.

AMPC - For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.

CSB - For God loved the world in this way: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

EHV - “For God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

HCSB - “For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

LEB - For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.

TLB - For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son so that anyone who believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

NASB - “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

NET - For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

NIV - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

NIVUK - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

TLV - “For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Still other translations say may not perish.

It doesn't matter that they also believe in nosas as I do.
You keep missing the red flags. :cautious:

The point is, they are accurately interpreting the verse according to Greek grammar. I'm not afraid to acknowledge when a denomination that I do not support or believe in gets something right. I don't automatically reject every single thing they say simply because I don't agree with their fundamental stance in Christianity.
It's not as much about the Greek grammar as it is with the implication of what John 3:16 is really teaching. Both you and Roman Catholicism interject nosas into the Greek grammar.

Let me remind you, I believe that you have to believe all the way to the very end to be saved just like osas believes that. but I'm hardly a osas believer. I can agree with that, even though I resist osas doctrine and it's denominations in the church. They just happen to have that point right.
So Roman Catholicism (along with every other false religion and cult) that supports salvation by works and strongly opposes osas just happens to have that point right as well and you still see no red flag? :(

I agree.
So does that mean we ignore the subjunctive mood in vs. 16, or that we ignore the indicative mood in vs. 18?
There comes a point where us armchair Greek scholars have to bow out and acknowledge there are just some things we're not going to understand in Greek grammar without actually learning the language. But I think we can probably get some insight into the apparent contradiction by simply considering the verb tenses and verb moods and context together in each verse.
It's not about ignoring the subjunctive mood in John 3:16, but properly interpreting John 3:16 in light of the subjunctive mood which revolves around whether or not someone truly believes in Him or not, which is in harmony with "is not condemned" in John 3:18.

Yes, of course.
But the condition you aren't taking into consideration is that person has to always be presently believing in Him for the possible outcome in question to be true, and that the believer may not always continue to believe.
If someone truly believes in Him from the start (believing is firmly rooted and established) then they will always be presently believing in Him. Those who fail to continue to believe have a shallow, temporary belief which was never firmly rooted and established.

I know it takes time for alternate thought to sink into us Christians who only get exposed to the narrow understanding that our denominations expose us to, but this additional insight I'm providing can't be seen by most osas'er because they instantly see 'believes' as 'will always believe' and can't even see, let alone agree with, the possibility of the true believer no longer believing in John 3:16 and other verses. And so they can't see any other way of understanding the verse. Even you, when shown the mood of the verbs are aghast at the thought that the verse might actually be saying the outcome is not automatically sure for the person who believes, because you've been taught that 'believes' always and without exception means 'will always believe'.
I grew up in the Roman Catholic church and was exposed to their false teachings (including nosas) for several years so your alleged 'additional insight' is nothing new or enlightening.

'Will not perish' is not consistent with the subjunctive mood of the verb.
It is for those who truly believe in Him and that's the point you keep missing because your head remains in the clouds of nosas (might or might not keep believing). Multiple translations read 'will not perish' and 'shall not perish,' so these translators understood this. All you and Roman Catholicism understand is nosas which clouds your and their understanding.

So I don't know what compels those versions of the Bible to change the mood from subjunctive (the mood of uncertainty) to indicative (the mood of surety), except to resolve what appears (to us) to be a contradiction between vs. 16, and vs. 18 where the mood is indicative. That's the best I have at this point. You brought it up and I have to examine it more before I can comment any more about it beyond the simple fact that the Catholics really are interpreting vs. 16 correctly. They really are.
Again, it's subjunctive mood in regards to 'whether or not' someone truly believes in Him (which is in harmony with is not condemned in John 3:18) so I have no problem with 'will not perish' and 'shall not perish' and I could see where interpreting John 3:16 in such a way to make it sound like those who believe in Him might or might not perish/might or might not receive eternal life would cause confusion, yet you and the Roman Catholic church certainly have no problem creating doubt as to whether those who believe in Him will or will not perish/and will or will not receive eternal life.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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This is exactly why you miss the context of James....nor will you ever get your doctrine right until you acknowledge the context of James and the phrase SHOW ME YOUR FAITH!
You will never get what James is saying until you acknowledge that James is not a Christian epistle but written to the twelve tribes of Israel. You do know that when that term is used, it is referring to the whole nation of Israel and not a called out group of Christians from that nation. Ever. You contradict the scriptures when you use as such.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
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I cannot believe how many disregard the context of James to peddle this crap that is being peddled......Paul was clear....Abraham was JUSTIFIED (PAST TENSE) the micro second he had faith......well before he offered Isaac.....these jokers make a mockery of the word of God!!
Genesis 22:5
He said to his servants, "Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you."

Abraham had faith in God before he took Isaac to the altar , as he said in the above " We will come back to you "...
...xox...
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Genesis 22:5
He said to his servants, "Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you."

Abraham had faith in God before he took Isaac to the altar , as he said in the above " We will come back to you "...
...xox...
In James 2:21, we notice that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.